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[Dascu]

Macron is not great, but if you dislike his reforms you'll have a fair chance at fighting them through the legislative process and the courts. A Le Pen presidency means the fight will have to be taken to the streets.

Hardcore Melenchonites need to take a long hard look at the impact of their choices and make peace with the fact that they won't be voting in a president but getting to chose their next adversary. That's some serious advantage for a political movement that didn't qualify, all things considered.

The lack of strategic thinking from some corners of the left is staggering.

In addition, even imagining the potential 'worst case scenario' outcomes such as 'Macron wants everyone to be an Uber driver' - You need to think about which legislative decisions can be most easily rolled back and repealed by the next President. As evident from the UK and USA experience so far, rolling back hypothetically terrible employment rules is going to be easier than getting back EU membership, catching up on environment protection and climate change.

 

[Alx]

Why are Uber drivers so pissed off now ?
Because when they signed for it, it wasnt the same.

It wasn't the same, but it's probably still better than RSA, or they could just quit and get back to that, no reason to complain.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the Uber model and think it should be regulated (I also think the drivers are silly to complain because it was obvious that with that model they were losing all their rights).
But the fact that working for Uber, as shitty as it can be, is better than RSA, is probably true, or the business model would just die by itself.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I don't think she will win. She has way to many negatives for this move to even help her much. She is no trump.

Unless I see some polls proving otherwise, she is highly unlikely to win. But you are also the person who was predicting 340+ electoral wins for Clinton with a week left to go.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't think she will win. She has way to many negatives for this move to even help her much. She is no trump. Macron does need to stop resting on his laurels and try to make sure he campaigns as hard as possible so le pen can lose by a huge margin.

Case in point: I should vote AGAINST Macron. I will vote FOR Macron.

Le Pen is so antagonising that unless her opponent promises to murder everyone, I will vote against her.

It wasn't the same, but it's probably still better than RSA, or they could just quit and get back to that, no reason to complain.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the Uber model and think it should be regulated (I also think the drivers are silly to complain because it was obvious that with that model they were losing all their rights).
But the fact that working for Uber, as shitty as it can be, is better than RSA, is probably true, or the business model would just die by itself.

It was better. It's not anymore. It was appealing at first and quickly led to the need to work 70 hours for minimum wage. It's also because yes, the pay is higher. But it's basically 600 euros for doing nothing or 1100 euros for 70 hours a week.

There's also the fact that for some people, work is also about dignity. I refuse this joke that you exist thanks to your work.

 

[chromatic9]

It is, though. It absolutely is.

Her supporters are going to vote, without question. She has that support.

We need people to oppose that with every possible vote.

All I can do is plead with you to reconsider. No insults here, just begging.

You're lucky that you don't have to care who wins. You're life won't be destroyed by a Le Pen victory - but others are not so lucky.

Disagreeing with Macron is no reason to abstain here when you see what is at stake. This is a huge deal.

Of course Le Pen would not be good but how would you be destroyed? I'm guessing you like to travel from France to Germany a lot, which can be done without the EU in 2-3 years time, just a little more hassle. Not sure what how work permits and marriage status is impacted, people managed before the EU. Surely you'd be allowed in France if married to a French person.

 

[Magni]

Did I said he was an Hollande bis ?

Oh, not claiming you said that, sorry if it came off that way. I was saying that people are claiming both about him, and they both can't be right: it's either one, or the other, or - more likely - neither.

Sure I can expand more, when we're talking about someone claiming it's better to work 70 hours to get paid the same as regular 35 hours with Uber rather than not working and getting paid with RSA, I can see where that person is coming from.

Maybe you should watch the whole exchange rather than just an out of context hot take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9_m12R_aQ

Yeah, I can totally see what's planned here:
Be flexible, more and more. Work more for less. Our french system is our pride. It's protecting workers. Macron believes that we should be more flexible. That the labour code should be between employees and employers, as if they'd have the power to strike a decent deal. As if negociations would be even wheb in the end it'll be "sign or gtfo".

It's protecting workers (until the jobs leave, like at Whirlpool), but it doesn't look like it's protecting job-seekers. Why is unemployment at 10%? (and for youths at 25%)?

I can totally see what's the plan here when he claims "we'll make a lot of formations for unemployed people" as if it'll fix anything. If Macron believes that you can change your career at 50 to a new job with no experience, just thanks to a formation... The guy's pretty clueless.

Wait, so you're against retraining people whose jobs have left, so they can do something else? What's the better idea here? Maybe we should ship them off to Poland so they can keep working for Whirlpool?

Fake edit:

This just got shared in my Facebook feed (from March 2nd) https://www.facebook.com/EmmanuelMacron/videos/1923877661178144/ - Macron defending himself as the candidate for the popular and middle classes of society. Curious as to what people here (especially the insoumis) think of it. The diabolisation of Macron, just because he happened to work in finance for four years, is troubling to me. People refuse to believe he can more than just that.

 

[dark10x]

In addition, even imagining the potential 'worst case scenario' outcomes such as 'Macron wants everyone to be an Uber driver' - You need to think about which legislative decisions can be most easily rolled back and repealed by the next President. As evident from the UK and USA experience so far, rolling back hypothetically terrible employment rules is going to be easier than getting back EU membership, catching up on environment protection and climate change.

Exactly. This is a key thing to keep in mind.

 

[mo60]

Unless I see some polls proving otherwise, she is highly unlikely to win. But you are also the person who was predicting 340+ electoral wins for Clinton with a week left to go.

A lot of people messed up in that election. Le Pen's loss is way easier to predict especially after what happen to far right parties right after trump got elected.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Voting in a bourgeois election is pointless, and not voting is valid. Lesser evilism is just rightward creep.

Liberals and anyone who generally believes in "their country" often say things like "I won't tell you who to vote for but I think you should vote it's your civic duty" or some such bullshit. If you feel that voting for a candidate does not fit into any particular strategy for achieving working class power in the country then your decision ought to be not to vote.

Is pointless when you don't have your country almost falling to fascism. Macron is everything I hate but I would vote for him. Why ? Because Lepen victory would be the end of the country I knew and would possibly mean the death or expulsion of many friends or family member. The ideological core of Fn is ethnic cleansing. So yeah, keep up the edgy attitude.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

A lot of people messed up in that election. Le Pen's loss is way easier to predict especially after what happen to far right parties right after trump got elected.

Yeah, but you were making pie in the sky predictions which were in defiance of the polls. Not the middle of the road guess that Clinton would win by a couple points.

 

[GhostTrick]

Oh, not claiming you said that, sorry if it came off that way. I was saying that people are claiming both about him, and they both can't be right: it's either one, or the other, or - more likely - neither.



Maybe you should watch the whole exchange rather than just an out of context hot take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9_m12R_aQ



It's protecting workers (until the jobs leave, like at Whirlpool), but it doesn't look like it's protecting job-seekers. Why is unemployment at 10%? (and for youths at 25%)?



Wait, so you're against retraining people whose jobs have left, so they can do something else? What's the better idea here? Maybe we should ship them off to Poland so they can keep working for Whirlpool?

Fake edit:

This just got shared in my Facebook feed (from March 2nd) https://www.facebook.com/EmmanuelMacron/videos/1923877661178144/ - Macron defending himself as the candidate for the popular and middle classes of society. Curious as to what people here (especially the insoumis) think of it. The diabolisation of Macron, just because he happened to work in finance for four years, is troubling to me. People refuse to believe he can more than just that.

I'm not against that in principle, I'm telling you it wont work. When you're 50, you're considered out of use. And that is even when you're experienced.

Now imagine being 50 with no experience ? You must be naive to think people will get hired with that.

And for the record, I actually have respect for Macron landing where he did by working as a banker. At least, he wasnt sleeping off with public funds.

As for negociations protecting workers: Sure, but until when ? For the record, Smart made people work 37 hours a week for the price of 35 hours. Which is the point: if labour code works this way, it means employers will have the upper hand. Sign or get a new job.

 

[mo60]

Yeah, but you were making pie in the sky predictions which were in defiance of the polls. Not the middle of the road guess that Clinton would win by a couple points.

Like I said a lot of people including me thought her lead was stronger then what it ended up being. The difference is this time le pen is a known quantity unlike trump who had literally no history in politics. Macron still should campaign as hard as possible even if that means going to le pen favoured territory.If he can weaken her support with the working class a bit that may be good, but I'm not sure how he will do that yet besides maybe exposes her flaws in a debate.

 

[Magni]

Voting in a bourgeois election is pointless, and not voting is valid. Lesser evilism is just rightward creep.

Liberals and anyone who generally believes in "their country" often say things like "I won't tell you who to vote for but I think you should vote it's your civic duty" or some such bullshit. If you feel that voting for a candidate does not fit into any particular strategy for achieving working class power in the country then your decision ought to be not to vote.

Right, because not voting accomplishes everything.

Of course they will get less than this. Mélenchon scored what he did thanks to left-wing Hamon defectors and Ecologists. We weren't represented well in this election but we didn't simply vanish.

Who is "we"?

 

[Alx]

But it's basically 600 euros for doing nothing or 1100 euros for 70 hours a week.

There's also the fact that for some people, work is also about dignity. I refuse this joke that you exist thanks to your work.

You don't necessarily exist thanks to your work, but you exist thanks to what you do (basic existentialism). And yes, work has a big part in that.
Have you ever been unemployed ? Or stuck between contracts as a consultant ? Because trust me I have. At first it feels quite comfortable, even great, being payed for doing nothing.
But it's quickly degrading your mental state, and people quickly feel useless and depressed.
We are social animals, and we need a way to find our place in that society. Staying at home watching TV all day isn't one of them.

So to answer your initial question : yes getting 1100€ for 70 hours/week of work is better than getting 600€ for doing nothing. It's still a shitty life, but it's going in the right direction.

Maybe you should watch the whole exchange rather than just an out of context hot take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9_m12R_aQ

As much as this guy is terrible in front of a crowd, he can be quite good in more intimate environments. Gets me a bit more hopeful for the debate.
It's no surprise either, if he could rise so fast in his career and become close to major political leaders, he probably has "a little something" to convince people when he talks to them. Can't have built his career on charisma alone.

 

[dark10x]

Of course Le Pen would not be good but how would you be destroyed? I'm guessing you like to travel from France to Germany a lot, which can be done without the EU in 2-3 years time, just a little more hassle. Not sure what how work permits and marriage status is impacted, people managed before the EU. Surely you'd be allowed in France if married to a French person.

We live in Germany and my wife's job could be at risk if France leaves the EU, basically. It's not about traveling back and forth, though that would also be a hassle.

It creates a situation of high uncertainty.

 

[GhostTrick]

You don't necessarily exist thanks to your work, but you exist thanks to what you do (basic existentialism). And yes, work has a big part in that.
Have you ever been unemployed ? Or stuck between contracts as a consultant ? Because trust me I have. At first it feels quite comfortable, even great, being payed for doing nothing.
But it's quickly degrading your mental state, and people quickly feel useless and depressed.
We are social animals, and we need a way to find our place in that society. Staying at home watching TV all day isn't one of them.

So to answer your initial question : yes getting 1100€ for 70 days of work is better than getting 600€ for doing nothing. It's still a shitty life, but it's still going in the right direction.

That's where we disagree. If you feel empty, just do something for the society. There's a lot of associations or even civic services to do.

Yes, I have been unemployed and I'm actually working every week end for 20 hours on top of my master class and TDs as a student. And no, this isnt ideal.

But let's take it further: Once Uber will use automatic cars... What's next ?

No, you don't exist through your work but through what you do. It's your job to do something that fulfills you. But having a job at any cost shouldn't fulfill you. Some people write, some people do sports, some people help others. There are things to do outside of work. Because work isnt meant to be here forever outside of some public services.

Is pointless when you don't have your country almost falling to fascism. Macron is everything I hate but I would vote for him. Why ? Because Lepen victory would be the end of the country I knew and would possibly mean the death or expulsion of many friends or family member. The ideological core of Fn is ethnic cleansing. So yeah, keep up the edgy attitude.

This isnt said enough. Despite the attempt to hide their nazis,"Grand Remplacement", "Remigration" themes are why I'll never believe their "as long as you have a french id card, you're french to us" bullshit. They're the party of the "francais de papiers" expression to call the people they consider to be french only by ID cards.

But more than Lepen, the problem is their audience, who'll feel free to act as they wish if she gets in place.

 

[Ether_Snake]

People have to stop whining about Uber. Your problem is a lack of proper social safety net. Don't shift that on a business that is fully digitalized which makes it easier for the government to collect taxes unlike the old taxi industry. Uber gives people the flexibility to work when they want, they can at any time work in a friend's business for a few days or weeks, work 25 hours a week and make the difference with some Uber use, they can make some money while unemployed, their cars are not single-use cars unlike branded taxis that force drivers to leave their own cars sitting in a parking spot or at home all day, and so on.

Stop taking the easy way out by attacking a great technology and start putting pressure on the government to put in place a proper safety net so that people aren't forced to work crazy hours to survive.

 

[Ac30]

Of course Le Pen would not be good but how would you be destroyed? I'm guessing you like to travel from France to Germany a lot, which can be done without the EU in 2-3 years time, just a little more hassle. Not sure what how work permits and marriage status is impacted, people managed before the EU. Surely you'd be allowed in France if married to a French person.

I don't think he's talking about himself in particular, but life will be much harder for ethnic minorities under LePen, and she will certainly kill the Union, which will severely hurt the other 27 states - a united ecological policy and foreign policy are needed if Europe is to thrive in the next century, because climate change isn't gong to be pretty for North Africa and the ME and we're going to need a united front. My country, and many others, use the Euro, and a LePen election would likely send us and all of the Eurozone (including France) into recession, again, and we're just recovering after nearly a decade. I appreciate Macron because he's a Europhile - everyone knows the EU is weak right now, but you have a choice between an earnest reformist/integrationist and someone looking to put the final nail in the coffin. So yes, LePen winning could destroy economies across Europe, as well as kill the EU, which would harm many people in and outside France.

 

[Magni]

I'm not against that in principle, I'm telling you it wont work. When you're 50, you're considered out of use. And that is even when you're experienced.

Now imagine being 50 with no experience ? You must be naive to think people will get hired with that.

One of the principles of late-career retraining is training for fields that have worker shortages. So yes, if people are having trouble hiring for a particular skillset, they will hire 50 year olds who are trained in that skillset. And if needed, you can always add a tax break to those hires to make it even more worthwhile to the companies to do so.

What's the alternative? Give them money (from where?) to sit around and do nothing all day?

And for the record, I actually have respect for Macron landing where he did by working as a banker. At least, he wasnt sleeping off with public funds.

He was the only serious candidate not being paid to campaign this election. He's got principles. Yet another reason for why the "he and Le Pen are equally bad" talk is so intellectually dishonest.

As for negociations protecting workers: Sure, but until when ? For the record, Smart made people work 37 hours a week for the price of 35 hours. Which is the point: if labour code works this way, it means employers will have the upper hand. Sign or get a new job.

Knowing our fellow countrymen, they will take to the streets if Macron proposes anything drastic (and probably way before then). The current situation clearly isn't working for everyone, so it makes sense to try and tweak things to give it a spark. There's a difference between adding some flexibility to the system to make it less rigid, and getting rid of all worker protections.

 

[GhostTrick]

People have to stop whining about Uber. Your problem is a lack of proper social safety net. Don't shift that on a business that is fully digitalized which makes it easier for the government to collect taxes unlike the old taxi industry. Uber gives people the flexibility to work when they want, they can at any time work in a friend's business for a few days or weeks, work 25 hours a week and make the difference with some Uber use, they can make some money while unemployed, their cars are not single-use cars unlike branded taxis that force drivers to leave their own cars sitting in a parking spot or at home all day, and so on.

Stop taking the easy way out by attacking a great technology and start putting pressure on the government to put in place a proper safety net so that people aren't forced to work crazy hours to survive.

When people talk about Uber, they often talk about what the model led to. The lack of safety net as you put it is why it's against the french model of protection.

 

[Alx]

That's where we disagree. If you feel empty, just do something for the society. There's a lot of associations or even civic services to do..
(...)
No, you don't exist through your work but through what you do. It's your job to do something that fulfills you. But having a job at any cost shouldn't fulfill you. Some people write, some people do sports, some people help others. There are things to do outside of work. Because work isnt meant to be here forever outside of some public services.

Yeah and all people at RSA are all rushing to register to those associations or paint lanscapes... I agree that in theory it would be great if everybody could find fulfillment in being an artist or helping each other for free, but the truth is... most don't. Or won't do it for free anyway.
Also it's easier to have a fulfilling activity when you have the money to pay for it.

But let's take it further: Once Uber will use automatic cars... What's next ?

One of the reasons Uber is a scam.
But did you seriously think Macron thought Uber was specifically the solution to its problem ? When people say "Uber", they mean "auto-entreprenarial" models, being an Uber driver is just one of them. The idea isn't that the future is in driving cars, but that a first step towards getting a "real" job is getting an independent job, if you can't find anything better.

 

[GhostTrick]

One of the principles of late-career retraining is training for fields that have worker shortages. So yes, if people are having trouble hiring for a particular skillset, they will hire 50 year olds who are trained in that skillset. And if needed, you can always add a tax break to those hires to make it even more worthwhile to the companies to do so.

What's the alternative? Give them money (from where?) to sit around and do nothing all day?



He was the only serious candidate not being paid to campaign this election. He's got principles. Yet another reason for why the "he and Le Pen are equally bad" talk is so intellectually dishonest.



Knowing our fellow countrymen, they will take to the streets if Macron proposes anything drastic (and probably way before then). The current situation clearly isn't working for everyone, so it makes sense to try and tweak things to give it a spark. There's a difference between adding some flexibility to the system to make it less rigid, and getting rid of all worker protections.

What's the alternative ? I dont have it and I'm honest. Maybe our politics should be honest and claim they dont have the solutions either.

And no, I dont believe Macron and Lepen are equally bad. I never said so. What I meant thought is that even though I'd never vote for Le Pen, voting for Macron also is against a lot of my principles I'll have to betray when I vote for him.

Basically, you're asking me to eat something between poop and poison. The poison will kill me but it doesnt mean I should be happy to eat the poop.

As for flexibility, it isnt a problem by itself. It is a problem though when it is one sided and when negociations will happen between employees and employers. Or as I said: accept the deal or get out.

Yeah and all people at RSA are all rushing to register to those associations or paint lanscapes... I agree that in theory it would be great if everybody could find fulfillment in being an artist or helping each other for free, but the truth is... most don't. Or won't do it for free anyway.



One of the reasons Uber is a scam.
But did you seriously think Macron thought Uber was specifically the solution to its problem ? When people say "Uber", they mean "auto-entreprenarial" models, being an Uber driver is just one of them. The idea isn't that the future is in driving cars, but that a first step towards getting a "real" job is getting an independent job, if you can't find anything better.

Because some people obviously are fine with doing nothing. I'm talking about the fact that not working makes you feel empty.

And no I didnt said Macron said Uber was the solution. What he said though is "it's better than nothing". That's where I disagree. I dont think people should be lowering themselves and their rights because "it's better than nothing". It's basically "work for nothing" or "do nothing for nothing".

 

[azyless]

People have to stop whining about Uber. Your problem is a lack of proper social safety net. Don't shift that on a business that is fully digitalized which makes it easier for the government to collect taxes unlike the old taxi industry. Uber gives people the flexibility to work when they want, they can at any time work in a friend's business for a few days or weeks, work 25 hours a week and make the difference with some Uber use, they can make some money while unemployed, their cars are not single-use cars unlike branded taxis that force drivers to leave their own cars sitting in a parking spot or at home all day, and so on.

Stop taking the easy way out by attacking a great technology and start putting pressure on the government to put in place a proper safety net so that people aren't forced to work crazy hours to survive.

Everything about this post screams "I'm north american". (working crazy hours really ? lol)
The people whining the most about Uber are Uber drivers themselves who were all too happy with libertarianism until they weren't.

 

[KingSnake]

The people here praising a selfie in a parking with no significance whatsoever just because they actually want somehow deep inside Macron to lose to prove their first round choice somehow right make me abandon this thread all together. This is not a dignifying discussion anymore.

Too bad you can't see beyond this 1st round loss. I still don't see how you think a MLP presidency would help your side (or your life) in any way, but I guess other things are more important.

BTW, for all this talk about anti-globalisation, France has some of the biggest multinational companies and protectionist policies will hurt those too. The world economy in general is no longer shaped for protectionism, but I guess some prophet will fix that by magic. Protectionism will only make automation come faster.

 

[GhostTrick]

The people here praising a selfie in a parking with no significance whatsoever just because they actually want somehow deep inside Macron to lose to prove their first round choice somehow right make me abandon this thread all together. This is not a dignifying discussion anymore.

Too bad you can't see beyond this 1st round loss. I still don't see how you think a MLP presidency would help your side (or your life) in any way, but I guess other things are more important.

BTW, for all this talk about anti-globalisation, France has some of the biggest multinational companies and protectionist policies will hurt those too. The world economy in general is no longer shaped for protectionism, but I guess some prophet will fix that by magic. Protectionism will only make automation come faster.

That's Le Pen's old shtick though and it's two birds with one stone:
"Protectionism is the key because it'll hurt the big ones and help the small ones".
Basically, when you say it'll hurt the big companies from CAC40, that's a bonus for her and her voters.

 

[JesseEwiak]

The idea isn't that the future is in driving cars, but that a first step towards getting a "real" job is getting an independent job, if you can't find anything better.

Indepedent or contract jobs for all but a small number of well off contractors are largely a scam created to push the cost of emoyment from employers to employers. Th vast majority of positives to conttact work could be done under "normal" work as well.

As far as the people pushing back though, as an American, good luck with that. Hard for the union to fight back when everybody is an independent contractor undercutting each other for their next job.

After all, why is it always that tweaking labor rules always leads to more power for employers and less power for employees?

 

[ebil]

Right, because not voting accomplishes everything.



Who is "we"?

We left-wing moderates, socialists and Ecologists. It's in the previous sentence.

We had a choice between voting Hamon (which would have accomplished nothing) or dissolving into Macron and Mélenchon.

 

[GhostTrick]

Indepedent or contract jobs for all but a small number of well off contractors are largely a scam created to push the cost of emoyment from employers to employers. Th vast majority of positives to conttact work could be done under "normal" work as well.

As far as the people pushing back though, as an American, good luck with that. Hard for the union to fight back when everybody is an independent contractor undercutting each other for their next job.

After all, why is it always that tweaking labor rules always leads to more power for employers and less power for employees?

We already had a beautiful exemple of flexibility in France:
Smart: "If we want to stay open, you're gonna have to work 2 extra hours a week for free. Either that or we close".

Basically, flexibility for employers means more power.
Flexility for employee means bend more and more.

 

[chromatic9]

I don't think he's talking about himself in particular, but life will be much harder for ethnic minorities under LePen, and she will certainly kill the Union, which will severely hurt the other 27 states - a united ecological policy and foreign policy are needed if Europe is to thrive in the next century, because climate change isn't gong to be pretty for North Africa and the ME and we're going to need a united front. My country, and many others, use the Euro, and a LePen election would likely send us and all of the Eurozone (including France) into recession, again, and we're just recovering after nearly a decade. I appreciate Macron because he's a Europhile - everyone knows the EU is weak right now, but you have a choice between an earnest reformist/integrationist and someone looking to put the final nail in the coffin. So yes, LePen winning could destroy economies across Europe, as well as kill the EU, which would harm many people in and outside France.

Well John (darkx10x) answered the question.

I'm aware of the rest of your points as I'm sure 500 million Europeans are.

 

[KingSnake]

That's Le Pen's old shtick though and it's two birds with one stone:
"Protectionism is the key because it'll hurt the big ones and help the small ones".
Basically, when you say it'll hurt the big companies from CAC40, that's a bonus for her and her voters.

The small companies are not isolated from the big ones. They are their suppliers, their service providers, providing them money for growth. Any increase in cost goes to the whole chain.

 

[GhostTrick]

The small companies are not isolated from the big ones. They are their suppliers, their service providers, providing them money for growth. Any increase in cost goes to the whole chain.

I know, but that's why people are just so naive to follow her.

 

[Sinsem]

So to answer your initial question : yes getting 1100€ for 70 hours/week of work is better than getting 600€ for doing nothing. It's still a shitty life, but it's going in the right direction.

WTF?
70 hours/week is not only dangerous for your health, but it sure is far worse than doing nothing.
There are not enough jobs out there and you believe the right direction is to work 10 hours a day 7 days a week?

 

[SporeCrawler]

SO what are the current polls like? Is the election over or does lepen have a realistic chance? Melenchon voters + le pen voters would make a formidable share right? Melenchon seems to be stealth supporting le pen too

 

[Magni]

What's the alternative ? I dont have it and I'm honest. Maybe our politics should be honest and claim they dont have the solutions either.

I don't think Macron has claimed to have the solutions ("only I can fix it" à la Trump). He's proposing changes. If they work, the great. If they don't, we have new elections in 2022.

And no, I dont believe Macron and Lepen are equally bad. I never said so. What I meant thought is that even though I'd never vote for Le Pen, voting for Macron also is against a lot of my principles I'll have to betray when I vote for him.

Basically, you're asking me to eat something between poop and poison. The poison will kill me but it doesnt mean I should be happy to eat the poop.

Good to hear on the bolded.

Regarding the poop/poison thing: here's the thing - you had your chance to vote for someone on Sunday, the next round is now for voting against someone.

I strongly disagree with Mélenchon's foreign policy positions, don't have much faith in his economic policies, and personally dislike him as a candidate (way too populist for my taste) but I would have voted for him without any hesitation had he made the second round against Le Pen.

As for flexibility, it isnt a problem by itself. It is a problem though when it is one sided and when negociations will happen between employees and employers. Or as I said: accept the deal or get out.

Hence the need for strong unions. Negotiations aren't supposed to between corporations and individual employees.

edit:

We left-wing moderates, socialists and Ecologists. It's in the previous sentence.

We had a choice between voting Hamon (which would have accomplished nothing) or dissolving into Macron and Mélenchon.

Got it, wasn't sure if you meant that, or just the PS. Do you think the PS will do a better job than Hamon? I think some incumbents might survive, but with FI and EM submitting candidates all over, I'm not sure the moderates and radicals will flock back to the PS. The Greens are tied to the PS for the legislatives due to their agreement with Hamon, so they're not going to be much of a factor either (they're not presenting candidates everywhere).

 

[Alx]

WTF?
70 hours/week is not only dangerous for your health, but it sure is far worse than doing nothing.
There are not enough jobs out there and you believe the right direction is to work 10 hours a day 7 days a week?

As a matter of fact, you're right, I didn't do the maths about the 70 hours (even if in my early days, I did work that much a week). Which is why I dislike the Uber model and complete lack of regulation by the way.
But even with less work hours and less income, it's still a better path to getting out of a shitty situation than just staying at home and doing nothing.

SO what are the current polls like? Is the election over or does lepen have a realistic chance? Melenchon voters + le pen voters would make a formidable share right? Melenchon seems to be stealth supporting le pen too

Today's ifop update puts Macron/Le Pen at 60.5/39.5, with a small 0.5 drop for Macron. We'll need more data points to see a trend though.
Interesting thing is that 90% of Macron voters are sure of their choice, for "only" 83% for Le Pen.
Expected participation is also dropping 1 point to 72%.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Everything about this post screams "I'm north american". (working crazy hours really ? lol)
The people whining the most about Uber are Uber drivers themselves who were all too happy with libertarianism until they weren't.

Completely irrelevant, I talk about Uber to all the drivers I use, and very few are unhappy, and all of that would be irrelevant if there was a proper safety net in place, which would make your point moot.

Continuing to request living wages from all businesses is misguided. Tax them and redistribute the appropriate amount. Stop getting in the way of technological progress while not putting pressure on the government to put in place the needed safety net.

 

[GhostTrick]

Completely irrelevant, I talk about Uber to all the drivers I use, and very few are unhappy, and all of that would be irrelevant if there was a proper safety net in place, which would make your point moot.

Continuing to request living wages from all businesses is misguided. Tax them and redistribute the appropriate amount. Stop getting in the way of technological progress while not putting pressure on the government to put in place the needed safety net.

France or USA ?

 

[Ac30]

Well John (darkx10x) answered the question.

I'm aware of the rest of your points as I'm sure 500 million Europeans are.

I'm sorry, I didn't see his reply.

As a matter of fact, you're right, I didn't do the maths about the 70 hours (even if in my early days, I did work that much a week). Which is why I dislike the Uber model and complete lack of regulation by the way.
But even with less work hours and less income, it's still a better path to getting out of a shitty situation than just staying at home and doing nothing.



Today's ifop update puts Macron/Le Pen at 60.5/39.5, with a small 0.5 drop for Macron. We'll need more data points to see a trend though.
Interesting thing is that 90% of Macron voters are sure of their choice, for "only" 83% for Le Pen.
Expected participation is also dropping 1 point to 72%.

What could be stopping LePen's own voters from voting for her?

 

[Magni]

What could be stopping LePen's own voters from voting for her?

A chunk of the FN's first round voters are protest votes. Some of those people are more comfortable doing so in the first round than in the second.

 

[ebil]

Got it, wasn't sure if you meant that, or just the PS. Do you think the PS will do a better job than Hamon? I think some incumbents might survive, but with FI and EM submitting candidates all over, I'm not sure the moderates and radicals will flock back to the PS. The Greens are tied to the PS for the legislatives due to their agreement with Hamon, so they're not going to be much of a factor either (they're not presenting candidates everywhere).

I don't think Hamon did a bad job per se, he had the misfortune of being backstabbed by basically everyone and of not being supported by his own camp. And no, I don't think the PS will do a better job without him as I think the PS as a party was the main problem with Hamon's candidacy. That being said, what remains of it might at least push for victory instead of sacrificing their candidates and electorate when they get control back, which might tip back the balance.

To be honest I'll remain undecided (edit: about the législatives, don't get me wrong, I very much intend to vote against Marion Anne Perrine on the 7th) until I see how it all unfolds post-election, and I'm certainly not the only one.

 

[azyless]

Completely irrelevant, I talk about Uber to all the drivers I use, and very few are unhappy, and all of that would be irrelevant if there was a proper safety net in place, which would make your point moot.

Continuing to request living wages from all businesses is misguided. Tax them and redistribute the appropriate amount. Stop getting in the way of technological progress while not putting pressure on the government to put in place the needed safety net.

I don't care about how many north american Uber drivers you talk to, what I'm talking about isn't anecdotal evidence, Uber drivers were on the news for months screaming about how unhappy they were.
And requesting living wages isn't the radical idea you seem to think it is.

 

[Slaythe]

Many people voted Melenchon because they wanted their vote to be more "useful".

Of those people, a gigantic amount thinks Hamon's policies were good.

So it's kind of annoying to see the PS now claiming Hamon's line isn't what the people want to follow, when Melenchon was extremely close and it's clearly more about the party itself and the backstabbing than it ever was about the actual plan to change France.

 

[Funky Papa]

Hamon needs some caffeine and a better coach.

Low energy.

 

[GhostTrick]

Many people voted Melenchon because they wanted their vote to be more "useful".

Of those people, a gigantic amount thinks Hamon's policies were good.

So it's kind of annoying to see the PS now claiming Hamon's line isn't what the people want to follow, when Melenchon was extremely close and it's clearly more about the party itself and the backstabbing than it ever was about the actual plan to change France.

Of course the PS will claim that. These primaries were just a scheme to make Hollande legitimate. That book appeared and fucked up a lot of things. So Valls was the Plan B. Although they forgot that people would vote. Hence why Valls got out.

The PS leaders had the candidate they didnt wanted.

 

[Ac30]

A chunk of the FN's first round voters are protest votes. Some of those people are more comfortable doing so in the first round than in the second.

-.- who protest votes for the fucking FN

 

[ebil]

Many people voted Melenchon because they wanted their vote to be more "useful".

Of those people, a gigantic amount thinks Hamon's policies were good.

So it's kind of annoying to see the PS now claiming Hamon's line isn't what the people want to follow, when Melenchon was extremely close and it's clearly more about the party itself and the backstabbing than it ever was about the actual plan to change France.

It was always going to end like this. The PS would have reaped the rewards had Hamon done a better score, and they'll throw him under the bus after having backstabbed him now that he did a low score because nobody pushed for him. They're a bunch of hypocrites. Cambadélis truly disguts me.

 

[Mimosa97]

I'll vote for Macron just like I did in the first round because I feel like I have no choice. I don't like his neoliberal reforms and I think things are about to get worse for millions of french people. I also feel like puking everytime I see Attali or his ilk shilling for him on TV. They represent everything I hate in this World.

But eh what can you do ? This is the same shit everywhere in the western world. Those who did everything to help the far right rise and rise, now get to keep the power without lifting a finger because they know it would be suicide to elect the far right. A majority of french people don't want Neoliberalism but election after election we move towards more of it. And I say this as someone whose family back home is pretty upper middle class and would be very positively impacted by a Macron presidency.

 

[mo60]

I have always been wondering this since the two first round debates. What are the chances of le pen hiding from investigation being brought up during the second round debate? It's not like she can escape from it forever. I know she got ripped to shreds for it in the all-candidate debate by a few candidates on this topic. I don't think Macron will bring up during the debate but the person asking the debate questions probably will.

 

[Alx]

Just watched the coverage of the Whirlpool events on the TV news, seems like Macron pulled it off. Well done Manu.
Certainly makes a difference that Le Pen only stayed for 10 minutes at the factory when Macron discussed with the crowd for one hour and a half.

 

[Ac30]

Just watched the coverage of the Whirlpool events on the TV news, seems like Macron pulled it off. Well done Manu.
Certainly makes a difference that Le Pen only stayed for 10 minutes at the factory when Macron discussed with the crowd for one hour and a half.

Did they properly air it on major channels?

I hate LePen with a passion but she's a fucking good campaigner.