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[irfaanator]

Decided to wait a few days before making this topic, but though people should know. This region is where my parents are from and they and other people I know are back there for their vacation visiting relatives. It hasn't been this bad since 2010 when protests erupted after police killed a young kid w/ a tear gas cannister during a protest rally.

The death toll in Kashmir has risen to 18 as deadly clashes between Indian troops and protesters continued despite a curfew imposed in the disputed Himalayan region to suppress anti-India violence following the killing of a popular rebel commander.

Six civilians who had been injured after Indian troops fired on rock-throwing protesters died overnight, and on Sunday a man was killed as hundreds of people defied the curfew and clashed with troops in the town of Pulwama. Eight people were killed on Saturday.

The protests erupted after Burhan Wani, chief of operations of Hizbul Mujahideen, Kashmir’s largest rebel group, was killed in fighting with Indian troops on Friday. Two rebel comrades of Wani also died.

Indian troops used live ammunition, pellet guns and teargas to try to control the crowds, police said. More than 100 civilians have been injured in the clashes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/10/kashmir-death-toll-rises-as-protesters-defy-curfew

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/...rces-firing-5-succumb-to-injuries/222621.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/kashmiris-decry-world-silence-killings-160710165312853.html

Local news sources put the death toll at over 20 right now though

edit: Looks like it's up to 30 now

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/...s-blind-14-year-old-insha-forever/222869.html

 

[The Artisan]

damn...i think i knew a guy in college whose family was from here. i should hit him up and make sure everything's okay on his end

 

[TheRealTalker]

it is a sad state of affairs

the planet has too many countries that are under occupation

 

[LordOfChaos]

Burhan Wani encouraged violence against Indian forces in the area, and the Muslim majority had been getting increasingly violent towards the Kashmiri pundit minority and other minorities...My heart goes out to the civilians that may have gotten in the way, but not so for the militants involved. Things were going the way of Pakistan where minorities plummeted after statehood, you can find alarming graphs on this and guess what happened...Whereas in neighbouring India minorities thrived after statehood. Kashmir was being pulled the wrong way by people like him, I'm not sure if people wanted to stand by as a genocide like Bangladesh in 71 occurred or what.

I'm upset to see world media peg him as some sort of innocent - if America killed him, headlines would read "terrorist killed", no doubt.

It's like Hamas protests against Israel...You might die less if you stop inciting violence in the first place.

Hizb-ul-Mujahideen is a Kashmiri separatist & terrorist group. It is designated a terrorist organisation by India, the European Union and the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizbul_Mujahideen

Burhan Wani had explicitly incited people to attack Pandit colonies and other Hindus. It's clearly terrorism.

 

[irfaanator]

death toll is up to 37 now including a 4 year old girl and 13 year old boy

 

[Zapages]

The Kashmir issue really needs to be resolved.... This is major issue between Pakistan and India. If the Kasmir issue can be resolved then both countries can prosper with trade.

RIP to all the folks who have died.

 

[irfaanator]

Previous mass protest was in 2010 over a fake insurgency operation that killed 3 people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kashmir_unrest

 

[Jeels]

...Whereas in neighbouring India minorities thrived after statehood.

Pakistan doesn't treat it's minorities well but this statement is objectively not true. There are countless cases of minorities being treated like shit in India. It's the entire reason the two state solution happened.

 

[irfaanator]

death toll has risen past 40 in the past 7 days.

edit; Forgot to add that over 3000 injured

theyve shut down and raided newspapers reporting in Kashmir as well as cut tv and cellular coverage. The army has also cut power in certain areas as well

 

[irfaanator]

Death toll is up to 50 as well as another policeman killed. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/front-page/another-youth-dies-death-toll-touches-50/223743.html

Over 2000 are injured now as well

 

[kittoo]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

 

[irfaanator]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

im sure the 50 innocent people killed and thousands of people wounded were terrorists and deserved their injuries and deaths. Especially this 5 year old http://kashmirreader.com/2016/07/23/crpf-trooper-inserts-needle-eye-5-yr-old-says-family/. He really deserved it

 

[Jeels]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

Oh please. Get out of here with this crap. There is a long and well documented history of India or factions within India oppressing Muslim minorities. It isn't clear cut and there are victims on both sides. What a disgusting post.

Edit: Above just one example.

You must be some sort of Hindu/Indian nationalist or something because this just reeks insensitive to a group of people whose needs haven't been addressed for over a generation.

 

[TrumanBurbank]

Can't believe people feel sorry for the guy who died. He is a militant!

 

[orochi91]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

Impressive damage control on behalf of the Indian government/military.

Do you work for them? Were these 2000+ casualties actual terrorists or responsible for ethnic cleansing?

 

[Walpurgis]

Oh please. Get out of here with this crap. There is a long and well documented history of India or factions within India oppressing Muslim minorities. It isn't clear cut and there are victims on both sides. What a disgusting post.

Edit: Above just one example.

You must be some sort of Hindu/Indian nationalist or something because this just reeks insensitive to a group of people whose needs haven't been addressed for over a generation.

He does this in every India thread.

 

[Jeels]

He does this in every India thread.

Ya, going through the post history now...

I'd really like to visit Kashmir some day, I hear all these stories about how beautiful it is. It's so unfortunate it's gone through such a tumultuous history since the partition.

 

[victreeb3l]

Just realized China also controls a portion of the Kashmir region too. This is one complicated mess.

 

[adamsapple]

Can't believe people feel sorry for the guy who died. He is a militant!

I think people are feeling more sorry for the civilians and the kids.

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

The fuck ?

 

[Jeels]

The fuck ?

"Those minorities have their own space that we were so kind to give to them! They should just go there!They should be grateful!"

 

[Window]

Kashmir has always been a sensitive issue which most of India has not been capable of looking at without a sense of nationalism unfortunately. Any questions are treated as an affront to its sovereignty (at least in mainstream media)

 

[adamsapple]

"Those minorities have their own space that we were so kind to give to them! They should just go there!They should be grateful!"

Here's a better idea .. why not just .. you know .. build a wall around those muslim areas while you're at it

 

[Lamel]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

At first I was going to be really surprised at this post, but then I realized it's coming from you. The anti-muslim schtick is a bit insensitive based on the news, considering numerous civilians have been killed and thousands injured.

 

[Zapages]

what's more disgusting whole issue with Kashmir and lack of public plight: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...k-under-fire-censoring-kashmir-posts-accounts

This is what Kashmiris want from India... Report BBC India: https://www.facebook.com/bbcindia/videos/vb.151955124848859/1220427201334974/?type=2&theater

Seriously, the lack of care for the Kashmiri people extremely sad due to Indian media's misinformation and censorship!

Also this was released on netflix and youtube about Kashmir! https://www.netflix.com/title/80084755 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCWAp_FaNA

PS: If India can claim and forcibly annex Hyderabad due to overwhelming Hindu population then Kashmir due to its overwhelming Muslim population should be either Independent or Pakistan has the full right to claim it to be part of its territory.

Aside from this, the main issue of Kashmir is that it is vital part of natural resources aka water for both countries. Hence whoever controls Kashmir controls water/irrigation for their over-whelming population.

 

[kittoo]

Oh please. Get out of here with this crap. There is a long and well documented history of India or factions within India oppressing Muslim minorities. It isn't clear cut and there are victims on both sides. What a disgusting post.

Edit: Above just one example.

And how is this particular situation is of 'India oppressing Muslims'? Maybe you should read about the exodus of Kashmiri Pundits from the valley in 1989 and see who oppressed whom.

You must be some sort of Hindu/Indian nationalist or something because this just reeks insensitive to a group of people whose needs haven't been addressed for over a generation.

Oh yeah. Any Indian putting an Indian view must be a 'Hindu nationalist'.

im sure the 50 innocent people killed and thousands of people wounded were terrorists and deserved their injuries and deaths. Especially this 5 year old http://kashmirreader.com/2016/07/23/crpf-trooper-inserts-needle-eye-5-yr-old-says-family/. He really deserved it

When did I say 'every' death is deserved? I said I have no sympathy from the rioters. Different things.
In which war/insurgency there are only 'deserved' deaths? I am sorry about what happened to the kid, for sure. But doesnt mean the whole situation is 'bad Indian army oppressing the poor Kashmiris who all totally innocent in the whole deal.'

Impressive damage control on behalf of the Indian government/military.

Do you work for them? Were these 2000+ casualties actual terrorists or responsible for ethnic cleansing?

What 2000+ casualities?
And the irony, coming from you! Dont I see you also in every thread even slightly related to Islam, doing damage control?

The fuck ?

Yeah, its called Pakistan. What is the issue here?

At first I was going to be really surprised at this post, but then I realized it's coming from you. The anti-muslim schtick is a bit insensitive based on the news, considering numerous civilians have been killed and thousands injured.

What is anti-Muslim in my post? That people pelt stones after prayers on Friday? Thats a fact. Friday is the most sensitive day in Kashmir. How is that anti-Muslim?

 

[kittoo]

PS: If India can claim and forcibly annex Hyderabad due to overwhelming Hindu population then Kashmir due to its overwhelming Muslim population should be either Independent or Pakistan has the full right to claim it to be part of its territory.

Frankly, even as an Indian, I see this as a somewhat legitimate argument from the Pakistani side. The issue is that a plebiscite was supposed to happen, according to UN. But the condition was that Pakistan would demilitarize its Kashmir region, then India would, then plebiscite would happen. That never happened. Then in 1989 almost all Hindus were forced to leave Kashmir. Of course, that changed the demographics completely and India simply wont agree to plebiscite in such conditions.

 

[irfaanator]

When did I say 'every' death is deserved? I said I have no sympathy from the rioters. Different things.
In which war/insurgency there are only 'deserved' deaths? I am sorry about what happened to the kid, for sure. But doesnt mean the whole situation is 'bad Indian army oppressing the poor Kashmiris who all totally innocent in the whole deal.'

so how do you feel about the 2010 protests?

 

[krimsoncharge]

india will never hold a plebiscite in kashmir. truth to be told that there is no solution to this conflict unless the LOC is made into an international border between the 3 countries and even that wont solve anything.

what works in india's favour is that mostly everything they've done is by the books. they got the treaty of ascension from the king himself while pakistan invaded the state. then there's article 370 which doesnt allow any other citizen from india to migrate to kashmir and settle down their to maintain the ethnic balance while nothing such has been done on the pakistani side. the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri hindus in 1989 leaving the border areas with a very high muslim population is another thing that india will pull up if things get worse. what people also overlook is that most of the protest in J&K only happens near the border areas of kashmir and srinagar. jammu and ladakh (the other 2 part of indian kashmir) are very very pro india with a majority of hindu and buddhist population. even the ruling BJP, considered by many as a right wing hindu nationalist party swept the polls in jammu and ladakh regions but won nothing in kashmir region.

the UN resolution also states that pakistan must vacate their part of territory first before anything but pakistani's already gift wrapped & donated half of the land they invaded to china making it more complicated. also, after the 1971 indo pak war where pakistan army surrendered after getting a thrashing, the head of pakistan signed a treaty with the indian PM that the kashmir is a bilateral issue and no third country or any other outside organisation will be involved.

 

[FoxSpirit]

When I was in India 3 years ago Kashmiri told me of a heavy influx of radical muslim elements who go around and "rescue" young boys for the pure faith. Because from what I gathered the Kashmir breed of Islam is special. I was surprised my guest host was muslim but at the same time hus faith was like islam but with all the teaching og energy and stuff. It became super complex very quick.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I have trouble seeing how this is any different than any other Islamist insurgency anywhere else in the world.

It's horrible that innocents get killed, but what, exactly, is the solution? Allow every area with Muslim-majority populations around the world to secede and form their own states (which, considering the record of pretty much every single Sunni country right now, will lead to even more innocents being killed)? Magically give every disgruntled person in the area a great job?

 

[Zapages]

I have trouble seeing how this is any different than any other Islamist insurgency anywhere else in the world.

It's horrible that innocents get killed, but what, exactly, is the solution? Allow every area with Muslim-majority populations around the world to secede and form their own states (which, considering the record of pretty much every single Sunni country right now, will lead to even more innocents being killed)? Magically give every disgruntled person in the area a great job?

The major difference is that this situation has been present since Pakistan and India was created. Its similar to the Palestinian issue but there actually is a country.

I am trying to find a new work/book that describes how the Hindu pundits even came into the equation being a force ie. due to massacre of Muslims in the Kashmir Valley by Pundits.

I'll try to find it.

Anyway please try to find the information on how India took over Hyderabad and how Kashmir is still an issue in the region. Yet the international media likes to ignore the situation due to Indian pressure. :\

Starting point: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24159594

 

[Chairman Yang]

Thanks for the reply. However...

The major difference is that this situation has been present since Pakistan and India was created. Its similar to the Palestinian issue but there actually is a country.

I'm familiar with the basics of the Kashmir situation, but what you've stated as a major difference is common with many Muslim insurgencies, from the Philippines, to China (Xinjiang), to Russia (the Caucasus), to countless others around the world. Like in India, these other insurgencies all claim some historical basis for why they can't live under non-Muslim rule and must have a separate religious state. Like in India, there are no good options for the state power; they can either do nothing (and allow their territory to break away, and for minority populations to be driven out or killed) or they can police the area as best they can, knowing that innocents will unavoidably die.

Most of the world doesn't take the claims of those insurgents seriously, and recognizes that an area being ruled by Islam in history doesn't entitle insurgent groups to eternally fight to restore Islamist rule, so I'm not sure why India would be a special case here.

I am trying to find a new work/book that describes how the Hindu pundits even came into the equation being a force ie. due to massacre of Muslims in the Kashmir Valley by Pundits.

I'll try to find it.

I look forward to your evidence that Kashmir's small Hindu minority massacred the majority Muslim population (and yet somehow became an even smaller minority).

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I recently had the pleasure of visiting Azad Kashmir during the elections. It is absolutely gorgeous and jaw dropping at times. The natural beauty of Kashmir is very unique with its rivers like Neelum.

I visited Neelum Valley as well passed along the LOC where we could see the Indian side of Kashmir. There were plenty of Pakistani tourists visiting it and as the picture below shows, the beauty speaks for itself.

It saddens me to see the current issues of Kashmir so I hope a peaceful resolution can be reached.

 

[irfaanator]

as an update to the thread, death toll has risen to 58 these past couple of weeks (56 civilians and 2 police officers) as well as over 6000 injured right now. Not only that but india rejected a UNHRC visit which was request last week. This is in part due to pakistand asking the UN for it, and rising tensions between the two countries over the protest. Theyve been clamping down on mobile services to disrupt people from meeting but now the govt has also shut down internet services so getting new info might be harder now.

 

[Madness]

Oh please. Get out of here with this crap. There is a long and well documented history of India or factions within India oppressing Muslim minorities. It isn't clear cut and there are victims on both sides. What a disgusting post.

Edit: Above just one example.

You must be some sort of Hindu/Indian nationalist or something because this just reeks insensitive to a group of people whose needs haven't been addressed for over a generation.

Of course, but Pakistan was solely founded on the idea that Muslims should have their own country and is called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Pakistan has ethnically cleansed every non-Muslim from the country either through force, death or conversion. Even just a few years ago therw were cases beheading Sikhs in some parts where a few small religious minorities remain.

India committed genocide against the Sikhs in 84 but in 2016 is a plurality of religions including Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and just a few weeks ago, Judaism was given protected status.

Kashmir's hindu population was driven away, any attempts for non-Muslims to reside there are met with riots and force. The person who was killed that started these riots was a rebel leader and/or terrorist who died fighting troops. Often times these rebels are funded by Pakistan to act as a proxy. Pakistan also committed genocide against Bengali muslims in the 1970's in East Pakistan which lead to the civil war and 1971 Indo-Pak war which culminated with India defeating West Pakistan, liberating East Pakistan which became Bangladesh. India had taken control of all of Kashmir at that time but gave Pakistans portion back. Pakistan to this day ignores its own atrocities including training and funding terrorists like the Mumbai attackers, housing Bin Laden near their most prestigious military academy, and training rebels to fight in Indian occupied Kashmir. Hindu nationalism is rising sure, but surely any objective person can see the differences here. The death toll is rising because you have radicalized muslim Kashmiri youth who for some reason want to join with Pakistan in an increased Islamic union free of other religions, and keep fighting against troops and police despite there being curfews and essentially a lockdown.

The chinese also foment this by developing in Pakistan occupied Kashmir and providing supplies and arms which make their way to Indian occupied Kashmir. But when someone sails through the South China Sea or mentions Taiwan or Tibet they blather on about sovereignty.

 

[iamcool388]

As an Indian, I'm pretty tired of the Kashmir question. On the one hand, Kashmir is ours, was ours, and should be ours. But that is probably a very simplistic reading of the situation.

On the other hand, if your belligerent little kid brother asks for your toy and then throws epic tantrums, you eventually give it to him just to shut him up. I'd prefer Kashmir be given to Pakistan just so that the major issue between the two countries is resolved, give Pakistan a pat on the back saying "Have fun", then go on our own way.

India would become a much more productive and focussed country with the Kashmir issue resolved.

 

[Random17]

As an Indian, I'm pretty tired of the Kashmir question. On the one hand, Kashmir is ours, was ours, and should be ours. But that is probably a very simplistic reading of the situation.

On the other hand, if your belligerent little kid brother asks for your toy and then throws epic tantrums, you eventually give it to him just to shut him up. I'd prefer Kashmir be given to Pakistan just so that the major issue between the two countries is resolved, give Pakistan a pat on the back saying "Have fun", then go on our own way.

India would become a much more productive and focussed country with the Kashmir issue resolved.

What about the property and rights of those who don't want to join Pakistan?

 

[iamcool388]

What about the property and rights of those who those who don't want to join Pakistan?

All possible arrangements should be made for those people who want to stay in India. There was a mass exodus in 1947, something similar, if on a much smaller scale, would occur. There would be a lot of issues of integration, of millions of people finding a new home, starting a new life, but it would still be worth it just to finally move on from the Kashmir issue, which has poisoned the political and military system of both the countries for the past 70 years.

I feel terrible saying this, but while people would suffer in the short term, in the long term perhaps this might end up being a good solution for both countries.

Then again, what the hell do I know. Also, Happy Independence Day Pakistan!

 

[Random17]

All possible arrangements should be made for those people who want to stay in India. There was a mass exodus in 1947, something similar, if on a much smaller scale, would occur. There would be a lot of issues of integration, of millions of people finding a new home, starting a new life, but it would still be worth it just to finally move on from the Kashmir issue, which has poisoned the political and military system of both the countries for the past 70 years.

I feel terrible saying this, but while people would suffer in the short term, in the long term perhaps this might end up being a good solution for both countries.

Then again, what the hell do I know. Also, Happy Independence Day Pakistan!

An exodus has long term consequences as well, and the refugee camps in Jammu are testament to that fact. You can't possibly expect thousands to move because it makes a few Westerners feel happy that the issue is solved?

Then stuff like minority rights, security etc are also a concern for any person left behind.

And we are making the big assumption that Pakistan getting the Kashmir valley actually solves the issue; call me skeptical. Where do we draw the line? Should Jammu join? Ladakh? Or is it just the valley?

 

[Madness]

As an Indian, I'm pretty tired of the Kashmir question. On the one hand, Kashmir is ours, was ours, and should be ours. But that is probably a very simplistic reading of the situation.

On the other hand, if your belligerent little kid brother asks for your toy and then throws epic tantrums, you eventually give it to him just to shut him up. I'd prefer Kashmir be given to Pakistan just so that the major issue between the two countries is resolved, give Pakistan a pat on the back saying "Have fun", then go on our own way.

India would become a much more productive and focussed country with the Kashmir issue resolved.

Give a mouse a cookie and he is going to want a glass of milk. Pakistan has repeatedly violated it's own agreements several times. After the decisive Indo-Pak War, when India gave back large parts of the country and all the surrendered POW's, Pakistan promised it would cease again. And yet then you had the Kargil conflict and the Siachen glacier incident. Giving Kashmir to Pakistan does nothing. All you've done is give a large part of Northern India to an increasingly failed state that is grappling with severe terrorist activity. Most of North Pakistan is so bad the military is often called in. Look at how many terrorist acts have occurred within Pakistan itself. Plus what about the Hindus and Sikhs who live in Kashmir who don't want to go to Pakistan or even the minority of muslims who don't. Giving Kashmir up won't end Pakistan's obsession with India. You can count on that.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Of course, but Pakistan was solely founded on the idea that Muslims should have their own country and is called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Pakistan has ethnically cleansed every non-Muslim from the country either through force, death or conversion. Even just a few years ago therw were cases beheading Sikhs in some parts where a few small religious minorities remain.

India committed genocide against the Sikhs in 84 but in 2016 is a plurality of religions including Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and just a few weeks ago, Judaism was given protected status.

Kashmir's hindu population was driven away, any attempts for non-Muslims to reside there are met with riots and force. The person who was killed that started these riots was a rebel leader and/or terrorist who died fighting troops. Often times these rebels are funded by Pakistan to act as a proxy. Pakistan also committed genocide against Bengali muslims in the 1970's in East Pakistan which lead to the civil war and 1971 Indo-Pak war which culminated with India defeating West Pakistan, liberating East Pakistan which became Bangladesh. India had taken control of all of Kashmir at that time but gave Pakistans portion back. Pakistan to this day ignores its own atrocities including training and funding terrorists like the Mumbai attackers, housing Bin Laden near their most prestigious military academy, and training rebels to fight in Indian occupied Kashmir. Hindu nationalism is rising sure, but surely any objective person can see the differences here. The death toll is rising because you have radicalized muslim Kashmiri youth who for some reason want to join with Pakistan in an increased Islamic union free of other religions, and keep fighting against troops and police despite there being curfews and essentially a lockdown.

The chinese also foment this by developing in Pakistan occupied Kashmir and providing supplies and arms which make their way to Indian occupied Kashmir. But when someone sails through the South China Sea or mentions Taiwan or Tibet they blather on about sovereignty.

This post gave me a good chuckle. It's amazing to sometimes see the narrative from the other side of border. Painting India like it is some saint and savior of minorities.

I must say, the part about India being a savior for East Pakistan was a good touch.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

This post gave me a good chuckle. It's amazing to sometimes see the narrative from the other side of border. Painting India like it is some saint and savior of minorities.

I must say, the part about India being a savior was for East Pakistan was a good touch.

It's even easier in today's geo political environment

Both India and Pakistan have a good amount of shit on them

 

[Jumeira]

I got no sympathy. First you cleanse your area of all Hindus, then start terrorism, then claim victimhood when the forces arrive.
This particular case- a terrorist was killed, simple as that. If people come with stones every Friday after prayers and attack the security forces, some are going to die! What was India supposed to do? Not kill the terrorist?
India has given enough area to Muslim majorities to go and live. It cant be a never-ending cycle.

Kill people for throwing stones? That is never an acceptable conclusion, you should be appalled at the thought.

You completely ignored Live ammunition was used against protestors too according to the report, can't believe the tripe in your post.

 

[Fezan]

The issue of Kashmir would have been resolved long ago if it was not an important land. I don't think neither India or Pakistan care about kashmiri people. They only care about rivers which are coming from kashmir and tourism money.

And argument by Indians is funny that atrocities and minority killing is Happening in Pakistan so people should look towards Pakistan and don't care about Rapes and murders happening in Kashmir. Also inhuman laws where kashmiri people can even jailed and tortured by police without any proof

It's an issue when biggest democracy in the world is found this to the common people for protesting

 

[DarkLordMalik]

It's even easier in today's geo political environment

Both India and Pakistan have a good amount of shit on them

I agree. Both Pakistan and India have done a lot of shit and it is all well documented in history. Honestly, as a Pakistani, nothing will please me more than peace between both of them instead of the endless name calling, victim blaming and shouting from both sides.

The future of Kashmir should be up to the people. It doesn't belong to Pakistan, neither it does to India.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

india will never hold a plebiscite in kashmir. truth to be told that there is no solution to this conflict unless the LOC is made into an international border between the 3 countries and even that wont solve anything.

what works in india's favour is that mostly everything they've done is by the books. they got the treaty of ascension from the king himself while pakistan invaded the state. then there's article 370 which doesnt allow any other citizen from india to migrate to kashmir and settle down their to maintain the ethnic balance while nothing such has been done on the pakistani side. the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri hindus in 1989 leaving the border areas with a very high muslim population is another thing that india will pull up if things get worse. what people also overlook is that most of the protest in J&K only happens near the border areas of kashmir and srinagar. jammu and ladakh (the other 2 part of indian kashmir) are very very pro india with a majority of hindu and buddhist population. even the ruling BJP, considered by many as a right wing hindu nationalist party swept the polls in jammu and ladakh regions but won nothing in kashmir region.

the UN resolution also states that pakistan must vacate their part of territory first before anything but pakistani's already gift wrapped & donated half of the land they invaded to china making it more complicated. also, after the 1971 indo pak war where pakistan army surrendered after getting a thrashing, the head of pakistan signed a treaty with the indian PM that the kashmir is a bilateral issue and no third country or any other outside organisation will be involved.

What a fascinating clusterfuck. I never knew of all this turmoil before this thread, to be honest.

 

[Baybars]

As an Indian, I'm pretty tired of the Kashmir question. On the one hand, Kashmir is ours, was ours, and should be ours. But that is probably a very simplistic reading of the situation.

On the other hand, if your belligerent little kid brother asks for your toy and then throws epic tantrums, you eventually give it to him just to shut him up. I'd prefer Kashmir be given to Pakistan just so that the major issue between the two countries is resolved, give Pakistan a pat on the back saying "Have fun", then go on our own way.

India would become a much more productive and focussed country with the Kashmir issue resolved.

Kashmir was handed to to you on a plate. The people in kashmir do not want to be part of india. It's why india will never hold a referendum there.

 

[Random17]

I'll be the first to admit that what India is doing is excessive and wrong, but this both sides are the same rhetoric is intellectually lazy nonsense. There is no moral high ground in this issue, but damn if people don't give a crap about nuance when examining possible solutions.

There are significant problems in India with the discrimination against minorities, but Pakistan is far worse historically, even when shit like the Gujarat riots has happened. See the voting rights situation with Hindus in the Sindh, for instance. The situation in Kashmir is bad, but the alternatives are worse.

This is relevant to the Kashmir issue because I don't see how the problem would be fixed if say Pakistan got concessions from India. You can't bulldoze your way to a solution, and territorial secessions are a foremost example of that. Best solution was always a de-escalation of the status quo's borders.

All of this course, is of no fault of the people themselves, but rather the government and the geopolitics of the region.

 

[Madness]

This post gave me a good chuckle. It's amazing to sometimes see the narrative from the other side of border. Painting India like it is some saint and savior of minorities.

I must say, the part about India being a savior for East Pakistan was a good touch.

From the other side of the border? Do you live in the US because I am from Canada bro. India is horrendous to minorities, especially Dalits and untouchables, they committed genocide against the Sikhs in 84 and hindu nationalism is at an all time high. But read up on the Indian-Pakistani war of 1971 without nationalist Pakistani goggles. Read up on it from the accounts of Bengali muslims in East Pakistsn being killed and oppressed. This is something I've seen a lot of Pakistanis struggle with. Without Indian military support, Bangladesh wouldn't be a free amd sovereign country right now. Comparing India and Pakistan as equals is akin to thinking North Korea and South Korea are the same. Modern India is far cry from modern Pakistan.

 

[Random17]

Kashmir was handed to to you on a plate. The people in kashmir do not want to be part of india. It's why india will never hold a referendum there.

Only if you ignore the exodus of a significant portion of the population, ignore the fact that the Kashmir valley isn't the whole state, and ignore the fact that majority opinion does equal separation when minority property rights and minority rights would be at risk.

And also assume that the echochambers in the valley represent some sort of noble cause, when in reality it's a representation of a separatist movement who not only drove out all dissenters in the 80s, but did so against people of all faiths and with an iron fist. There are plenty of Muslims who would prefer Kashmir to stay, and more likely many that don't give a shit, but it's hard to voice dissent when the response is a hammer to your face. There's a reason many people left the valley.