Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
The balance where defense heroes are nigh worthless?
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Overwatch |OT4| You Want A Good Genji, But You Need The Bad Hanzo
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The balance where defense heroes are nigh worthless?
Forerunner
Member
I wish they'd lower the hit box on Genji's alt, it's annoying as hell to get killed by it when he's miles away.
countering half the ults in the game just by holding right click feels very cheap to me
so does having an ult with absolutely no downsides that can consistently clock 2-3 enemy team members with just a mediocre amount of skilful use
countering half the ults in the game just by holding right click feels very cheap to me
so does having an ult with absolutely no downsides that can consistently clock 2-3 enemy team members with just a mediocre amount of skilful use
D'va is a tank, she's suppose to have some ability to counter ults. Reinhardt can count most ults just by holding up his shield but why isn't he cheap? I'm not a D.va player really but people complain about her matrix as if it's OP when it's really not. Maybe her ult not being able to kill her is something I can agree on.
MarioHead3
Banned
Your name says duck. Your avatar says cat. Your post says horse.
I've got it. The next character should be a cat riding a horse-sized duck. That one is free, Blizzard.
Do I get a leavers penalty if I leave right after I cast my vote in the post game rewards?
Also, can I say how I love how the game can legit surprise you with a turn about? The game I was in had someone pick the Sniper trio and I was like "oh, here we go" and naturally they steamrolled us in the first round except at the very end. I didn't think we'd get anywhere, but we fought hard for the first point and managed to secure it. It took much longer, but we managed to drag the payload all the way to the end, and then we absolutely crushed it in the coin flip. Granted, I think the coin flip is dumb as a mechanic, but it's nice to see a team come together after a ROUGH first round.
Also, can I say how I love how the game can legit surprise you with a turn about? The game I was in had someone pick the Sniper trio and I was like "oh, here we go" and naturally they steamrolled us in the first round except at the very end. I didn't think we'd get anywhere, but we fought hard for the first point and managed to secure it. It took much longer, but we managed to drag the payload all the way to the end, and then we absolutely crushed it in the coin flip. Granted, I think the coin flip is dumb as a mechanic, but it's nice to see a team come together after a ROUGH first round.
As a reaper, I can't say it's that bad, since 2/3rds of the cast can gimp me in some way shape or form. However, with a good ult, you need to plan for this. See a Zarya and a D Va? Wait till you see the matrix go down and shoot the zarya once to bait the shield. You can't use your ult and have it not be wasted if you don't do this.
I don't thi-
nevermind
Also replace McCree with revolver ocelot honestly
Earthpainting
Member
Honestly, DVA being invulnerable to her ult is inconsistent with the game's rules. Every other character gets harmed by their own explosions, so I think she should too. If not for balancing reasons, just for the sake of consistency would be nice too.
- Mei's cryo freeze becomes an ice sculpture of a horse
- Roadhogrse
- Give Reinhardt a cold so his voice sounds a little bit more hoarse
Game fixed.
- Make Hanzo's ult shoot stampeding horses
- Mei's cryo freeze becomes an ice sculpture of a horse
- Roadho
- Give Reinhardt a cold so his voice sounds a little bit more hoarse
Game fixed.
Not a cat.
I think it's the opposite. Before the patch, I was looking around and thinking "My entire team doesn't have to worry about my explosion, why do I have to?" Also, your statement is not entirely true. Junkrat doesn't get hurt by his Mine explosion, though he is propelled by it.
So I'm pro-explosion immunity. I've had too many times where I died because I was literally an inch too close and it's just kind of BS imo. And especially with the new 3 second timer, D.Va won't have a whole lot of time to make any kind of escape, which will make it a mostly Kamikaze move if it goes back to killing you.
What's the downside of Soldier's ult? McCree is stationary before he can trigger the instant kills. Reaper is trapped in a kill animation during his.
Not every ult has to have a specific downside, the skill involved is HOW you use it. Dva's ult is relatively useless unless it is aimed right, you have to aim and use boost before triggering it. The immediate risk is that you lose the mech and if you aimed poorly and find yourself with an enemy who is behind a wall or shield who can shoot at you, you can die before you get back into a mech. Soldier's ult is wasted if you don't flank well and get in the best position to shoot the most enemies.
How about Roadhog's ult? It's relatively risk free with high reward in most situations too. He has tons of health and it does a ton of damage especially in narrow places. Tracer's ult? Stick it behind a tank surrounded by the team and BOOM. Hanzo's ult? He doesn't even have to be anywhere near the players. Torb's ult? What risk?
Really? Not a single one out of the whole cast? D.Va's entirely on her own in that regard?
C'mon man, across the board ults are meant to be powerful game changers that can still be borked if you don't use them well enough. Getting hurt by a bit of splash damage on your rockets or whatever is not the same as killing yourself to maybe clear a point for a few seconds and maybe get a few kills.
Edit: duckroll handled that far more gracefully, but my points still stands!
Earthpainting
Member
His concussion mine is indeed also a little inconsistent. I'd be ok with Junkrat taking some damage for his ability to jump from his concussive blast. Still, he takes damage from his own grenade launcher's explosions. Pharah takes damage from her own rockets' splash damage, Soldier can take damage from his Helix Rockets, Bastion from his Ult's explosions, and Zarya takes damage from her Particle Cannon's secondary fire.
I think she DVa already has the perfect compromise to keep her from harm, in the form of allowing her to keep boosting while she self-destructs.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
The risk is that 3 seconds. With a big "NERF THIS" warning triangle telling people where it's coming from. People can hide in those 3 seconds, don't kid yourself.
The downside to an ult is situational. A lot of characters also have trash/OP ults to offset the rest of their abilities. D Vas is easy to avoid and if she follows you you can actually kill her, and it's fairly easy to notice going off. Reapers is OP, but you can also gimp him easily. Lucios has no downside really.
Most of them have the downside of "you can't use it in a more clutch situation".
Save your ult- don't burn it just because you have it, especially if your team doesn't need it. Your team will thank you when you wipe the opponent team and save an important encounter compared to you holding them at a door an extra 10s by killing one or two. After all, when thy're pushing hard, one can assume they're fairly together.
Regardless, most ults have some severe downsides. On my end, everyone and their cousin can gimp me or survive it if they react decently. In D Vas case, everyone has 3s to run and shes vunerable. Healers? Not so much, their downside is a diff ult can't be counternullified, which is essential for pushes.
It's fairly balanced all in all.
Most of them have the downside of "you can't use it in a more clutch situation".
Save your ult- don't burn it just because you have it, especially if your team doesn't need it. Your team will thank you when you wipe the opponent team and save an important encounter compared to you holding them at a door an extra 10s by killing one or two. After all, when thy're pushing hard, one can assume they're fairly together.
Regardless, most ults have some severe downsides. On my end, everyone and their cousin can gimp me or survive it if they react decently. In D Vas case, everyone has 3s to run and shes vunerable. Healers? Not so much, their downside is a diff ult can't be counternullified, which is essential for pushes.
It's fairly balanced all in all.
Roadhog can't
MarioHead3
Banned
I'm gonna get my horse-sized duck one way or another.
Not even the mods can stop me.
Roadhog is also one of the few characters that can survive D.Va's ult.
Some ults are going to wipe some characters instantly. OW has a lot of "deaths you couldn't avoid", its part of the game.
On that note, headshotting a mercy/s76/tracer as they turn a corner by randomly being twitchy and shooting is always hilarious to me because I get the great feeling of having sent someone to a respawn screen that they couldn't have avoided if they were a pro.
And you know, opponent being down a guy in the fight for no good reason.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Depends on you location. As I've said, you can't just fling that thing willy nilly. I've hidden from so many Dva ults even with this patch. And I very rarely see most people get triple kills or even A kill still, because they just fling it willy nilly.
Random thoughts before I sleep
Huge advantage at 70s even
Wait to go in as a team
Even as a flanker, don't flank early- I'm still bad at this and only live my luck a lot.
Honestly this makes or breaks so many fights, and I know people say they do it, but they still actively fail at doing it very often, so I'm going to say it in here again. Wait for your team to at least be by the main entrance to <wherever you feel like attacking>
I've also seen tons of objectives lost due to the enemy wiping a team around a corner from the last checkpoint for a payload so everyone runs right as they spawn to frantically slow it down. It's still better to group up and hold that last last 5 inches- they're going to wipe you one at a time, might as well make them fight to the end to try and take the last spot from you.
Same applies to holdouts if you're going in there as a squishy who won't last more than 5s- unless you holding it is essential and it's s necessity that second.
Huge advantage at 70s even
Wait to go in as a team
Even as a flanker, don't flank early- I'm still bad at this and only live my luck a lot.
Honestly this makes or breaks so many fights, and I know people say they do it, but they still actively fail at doing it very often, so I'm going to say it in here again. Wait for your team to at least be by the main entrance to <wherever you feel like attacking>
I've also seen tons of objectives lost due to the enemy wiping a team around a corner from the last checkpoint for a payload so everyone runs right as they spawn to frantically slow it down. It's still better to group up and hold that last last 5 inches- they're going to wipe you one at a time, might as well make them fight to the end to try and take the last spot from you.
Same applies to holdouts if you're going in there as a squishy who won't last more than 5s- unless you holding it is essential and it's s necessity that second.
Personally, I'd be in favor removing self damage in general. It VERY rarely happens, and I don't think it adds a whole lot to the game to die because you wasted used your ult or weapon in the wrong place.
The worst example I had was with Pharah. You know those things that hang from the ceiling the giant room in Liang Towers? I'm pretty sure they're scrolls of some kind, paper or whatever, but they don't fuck around with paper in China, because my rockets didn't make them twitch and killed me instead.
So I guess I'm pro-explosion immunity in general. If they don't hurt your team, they shouldn't hurt you.
Anyone?
Yup. Even discounting just regular hiding places, you can:
Use Mei's Wall or Ice barrier. Wall will also protect your team.
Use Reinhardt shield. Again, also protects your team.
Use Winston's shield. You can use it to protect your whole team, especially if the shield is around the explosion itself, it'll contain the whole thing.
Use Zarya's Barrier. You can't protect your whole team, but you can protect yourself and it will give your gun ALL the charge.
Use Reapers Ghost form.
Any movement based abilities help tremendously. I've escaped multiple explosions as D.Va with her boosters, Genji's dash, Soldier's Sprinting etc.
And there's always the risk of a team recovery with Mercy.
All in addition to the fact that you can use something as thing as a sign post to block the explosion.
That's why I said low risk for high (potential) reward. Not every ult has an particularly high risk to using it, but the payoff is correspondingly weak. Tracer's ult has relatively low downside (although it does require her to get close, which D.Va does not) but it has a very small AOE. Soldier ult can be powerful but he can be killed just as easily as normal. Roadhog cannot heal during his.
Where's the downside to D.Va's ult...you MIGHT NOT get a kill? That goes for absolutely every offensive ult in the game. She might die? So what, the ult itself cannot be interrupted, which is the disadvantage that many others face when using their ults sub-optimally. That's not a meaningful risk, it's how virtually every ult works, only D.Va has the luxury of her ult still going off even if she dies. The payoff is that she very often gets at least one or two kills; if the enemy team is trapped in another ult or she uses it cleverly she can very easily get more while never putting herself at risk; it's excellent at dispersing enemy teams. All upsides. The downside is that you might die (after your ult goes off) or you might not kill anyone. Meaningless.
Ults arent risk reward
Zaryas can have crazy reward and has no risk to speak of, same for lucio, ana, and mercy post run (well, minus a reaper/torb/roadhog shooting her, which was already going to happen if he saw her there as the last one)
They're just another move that's stronger and has more specific strategies to counter, don't think of them as risk reward. They exist to wipe certain characters/punish certain team strategies. There's a reason a tank is countered by Zaryas ult but tracer can phase away, or a reaper can counter ult within it and kill everyone who ran up to do damage to your team. They're just more effective tools to keep in mind that they're on cooldown.
Genjis also has borderline insane reward at no risk. He can teamwipe and isn't animation locked at all.
Change your mindset on that, because Blizzard doesn't balance in that way.
Zaryas can have crazy reward and has no risk to speak of, same for lucio, ana, and mercy post run (well, minus a reaper/torb/roadhog shooting her, which was already going to happen if he saw her there as the last one)
They're just another move that's stronger and has more specific strategies to counter, don't think of them as risk reward. They exist to wipe certain characters/punish certain team strategies. There's a reason a tank is countered by Zaryas ult but tracer can phase away, or a reaper can counter ult within it and kill everyone who ran up to do damage to your team. They're just more effective tools to keep in mind that they're on cooldown.
Genjis also has borderline insane reward at no risk. He can teamwipe and isn't animation locked at all.
Change your mindset on that, because Blizzard doesn't balance in that way.
Wow that's a huge if. We can apply that to all the ults in the game then. If you use team synergy well or you are clever about how to apply something you can get more results with less risk. Wow!!!! "Very easily" suggests that it is something anyone is capable of. If there's one thing I learned playing Overwatch, team synergy and being clever are the exceptions, not the rule.
If Soldier uses his ult while flanking behind the enemy team currently engaging the rest of his team, please tell me how wiping the entire enemy team with autoaim is not a low risk high reward outcome. I'm terrible with aiming, but I did exactly that yesterday in Numbani right at the final checkpoint. They wiped the remaining attackers at the chokepoint, I jump down from the back balcony with my ult and killed everyone except the Zarya, who had a sliver of health left, I ran around the payload waiting for her shield to wear off, killed her just as 2 teammates returned to back me up, riding the payload right into the win.
Not remotely true. Lucio, Mei, Junkrat, Hanzo, Symmetra, Zarya, and Ana's all continue after their death. Mercy too, since I had a lot of times where I died as soon as I hit triangle, but triangle was enough to revive my team. Including D.Va, a fire and forget Ult is something over a third of the heroes possess.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Like, what's the downside to zarya's ult?
That she wasted it? That's the only downside to it.
That she wasted it? That's the only downside to it.
You misunderstand my point. I'm saying that D.Va has the same high value potential outcome, but with very few of the risks that other characters have. Usually you would expect that if the risk is lower, then so is the potential reward (I.e. tracer). But for D.Va it isn't.
Sorry, the 'only' in that sentence should be read as 'in addition', not singling out D.Va as the only character in the game who that is true for.
I mean, we've outlined all the hard counters that various characters have to D.va's self destruct. It's not like the enemy team is helpless to do anything. And we've pointed out there is little risk to several ults that could also result in team kills. You say that "it might not work" is not a meaningful risk, but that describes a lot of the ults in the game, ults that also have the potential to team wipe. A Soldier's Ult can do that, so can Pharahss, or reapers, or Hanzo's. Not always, you have to be smart about how you use it to do so...but that describe's D.Va's ult as well. A team that's paying attention will have an opportunity to get to cover, or use one of the many character abilities to avoid death.
I'm just not seeing it. The risk is she might get killed and she might get zero kills if Rein just holds his shield up and faces the right direction. That's a loss of an ult and a man down. The risk of Soldier getting shot just as he activates his ult is that he dies and still has most of his ult charge since it drains as his ultvis being used. That's actually less risk with solid reward.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
To be fair, Dva's ult serves a dual purpose.
1. Area denial with potential for kills.
2. Get her a new mech.
So if she has ult up she's essentially running around with 1000hp, with 800 of those being armour. With the potential to keep going.
1. Area denial with potential for kills.
2. Get her a new mech.
So if she has ult up she's essentially running around with 1000hp, with 800 of those being armour. With the potential to keep going.
toastyToast
Member
Well yeah it charges pretty slow and it being devastating is dependent on a bunch of things. If she wastes it you won't see another one for a while
Yeah, I don't think anyone would deny she's a powerhouse of a tank, but...honestly, that could describe many characters if played the right way. The point of the discussion is "Is she overpowered"
And I don't think she is. She'll rek ur shit if played right, but she can also be shut down by many characters, ult or not.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I know, I agree, but it's appropriate because it's one of the most powerful ults in the game. It requires teamwork (which could be something as simple as people calling their ult statuses) and skillful use to get a maximum potential, but it can enable team wipes like no other ult in this game reliably.
Like, Dva's ult is still nowhere close to being as good as zarya's ult.
Like, Dva's ult is still nowhere close to being as good as zarya's ult.
Good point
Buff D.Va's ult to have a vacuum component!
HazySaiyan
Banned
Would you rather fight one Hanzo riding a horse-sized duck, or ten Hanzos riding duck-sized horses?
It drains very quickly right at the beginning of his ult.
And no, launching a D.Va ult at rein and having him block it is not 'a wasted ult' in the same way that, say, launching a black hole that hits nothing is. At the absolute bare minimum you've taken charge off Rein's shield. Small prize perhaps, but that's just my whole point. No downsides. Short of launching the thing off the map or into an area with absolutely no enemies in it, you will always get some value out of it.
MarioHead3
Banned
Well, I'm obviously more concerned about the guy with a bow and arrow trying to kill me than what he's riding, so I'm gonna have to go with one Hanzo.
Let's face it, I'd be dead either way.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
With how badly some Hanzos aim you'd think that doing it on horse back would be even harder.
MarioHead3
Banned
With ten of them, at least one would be able to hit my pudgy ass.
And that's not even taking the scatter arrow into account.
I feel you're being very pedantic over this. If something as small as Reinhardt protecting himself and his team with his shield can be considered an upside, then her being vulnerable outside of her meka to enemy attacks should be considered a notable downside in your argument. But if you're talking about pickings that small, you can argue that about many ults. A Soldier that dies before getting his ult off, still takes attention off other teammates for a little bit, no? A Pharah that gets shot out of the sky still probably managed to shoot out some rockets that did a few points damage to one or two characters. A Hanzo that fires his dragons into the objective will still get everyone out of the way while his dragons pass through. Even used as poorly as concievably possible, Torbs Molten Core will still get off more damage than his ordinary state with no additional risk whatsoever. All microbenefits with no more risk than they'd ordinarily get.
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