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Overwatch |OT4| You Want A Good Genji, But You Need The Bad Hanzo

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Anne

Member
Zenyatta needed the buff. McCree needed the buff. The 32 meter buff was pretty entertainingly crazy but that didn't mean he shouldn't have had any buffs, and after that week they ended up with him in a very good place.

Zen needed a buff. McCree probably didn't need a buff while Soldier was nerfed, that is still fucking things up. The problem is now Zen needs to be nerfed pretty heavily and there people saying he's fine and the tournament pickrate doesn't matter. IT does, actual game balance assumes that players are playing of an equal skill level at the highest level.

Balance at low levels exists but it's a bit different. Again, this is why Bastion exists. He's a monster DPS for newer players, but has those weaknesses. HE's balanced in such a way that newer players eventually get nudged towards higher mechanical skill heroes that actually offer more DPS in the long run. The real competitive balance of the game at hat level doesn't matter, whoever has the better mechanics should win outright. That perceived balance is an issue, yeah, but high level balance generally doesn't effect it outside of character reworks. It's more baked into the overall design than anything.

It's all a mess, but dismissing tournament pickrate and what happens at the high level in regards to balance is asinine. Thats's where the actual tuned balance comes from, anybody lower and you redesign perceptions until they get ot the point where that higher level balance matters.
 

Odrion

Banned
if blizzard balanced the game based on the 1% of top tier players bastion would have his shield back and do 200% damage
zen needed A buff but 200 hp was a lil much

200 hp is the only way he's going to be a relevant pick.

And honestly do you think it was really that which made his discord crazy or was it the reduced time it took for him to put it on someone?
 

Anne

Member
200 hp was the only way he was going to be a relevant pick

Yeah but 200HP and 50% discord breaks him. He invalidates other healers because he creates this strat where healing honestly doesn't matter. Blitzing the discorded guy matters a lot more. Also double support is the thing. Zenyatta being so good and allowing that blitz strat to invalidate healing just makes Lucio better and Mercy worse. Lucio's speedboost makes blitzing better and Symmetra worse. The two of them together leave no room for Ana to be a thing.

So you just run Lucio/Zen if you wanna win, and the counterplay to them is to run them yourself. Which is really silly.

if blizzard balanced the game based on the 1% of top tier players bastion would have his shield back and do 200% damage

Actually Bastion is balanced around the top 1% by basically not being viable to them outside of extremely niche situations. The way Bastion is designed that if he was good to them in a general sense the game would honestly just play like garbage. It's better for game health for him to be how he is and it also works out for him in lower MMR brackets as far as perception goes.
 

Odrion

Banned
150 HP 50 shields for Zenyatta might fix his survivability

His discord orb's damage buff FOR OTHER PLAYERS should be nerfed, and that's about it really. The thing about his shield is that it's his "self recovery" mechanic that all the healers have.
 

xaosslug

Member
just went on a 4-game winning streak in ranked, solo. Up to 49, rn
mLmBibQ.png
 
Really fun Gaf train today. Kind of shocked that I'm two levels below where I started today but when the train was at full speed we had really nice run.

Props for getting that sudden death 5v6 at the end when my internet crapped out (again!) in that last game.
 

Mush

6.0
- Speed Boost past a choke point with Reinhart's shield (try it, it is amazing).
My friends and I use this tactic for getting past the archway choke point on point A for Anubis, since everyone sets up in the area in front of the bridge/on the bridge and no one expects us to just simply rush through and ignore them all together.
 

Anne

Member
150 HP 50 shields for Zenyatta might fix his survivability

Ish. They gave the 4 primary healers all ways to self heal because I think they want them to have an easier time being played solo. I doubt they'd change that.

Even then, having 200 HP in general while allowing discord interactions at 50% will always be a problem. 200 HP is just too much to burn though before the orb damage kills you. Before with orbs at 1/4 speed and 150 health by the time he got an orb on somebody and shot them he'd be dead. With this orb speed and that much health that is basically impossible to do.

It all adds up to some nonsense. If I saw a better option than nerfing orb I'd be for it, but I can't think of one.
 

J Range

Member
Is 40% shots landed with mccree on console solid enough? I relied a lot on fth before, and now that its not the damage monster it was, im trying to rethink how i play. Right now im playing sort of like i play zenyatta. With my group at all times, try to stay mid range, and away from the enemy. If somebody gets in close, i try to flashbang, fth, roll, fth. If that doesnt work i die.

Any general tips with mccree? Im not really sure what my roll should be. Positioning, who to target, etc tips appreciated.
 

Odrion

Banned
McCree probably didn't need a buff while Soldier was nerfed, that is still fucking things up.

No McCree still needed that buff, he was kinda bad at everything back then. At least now he's good at mid-range and can function as the anti-harasser again. He's still seeing a lot of action at the pro level because he synergies with the Zenyatta-Lucio meta extremely well.
I liked the idea of discord giving zen 50% attack buff but only 20% for the rest of the team.
I think 30% is fair, gives it the same utility as Mercy's alt fire.
 

Anne

Member
I liked the idea of discord giving zen 50% attack buff but only 20% for the rest of the team.

It's okay, but it's still allowing a support to have the same health pool as a DPS while also being able to 1v1 them. I personally don't like that on top of it being hard to communicate well where the damage is coming from.

It's just easier to bring that damage total down from 50%. I think if Lucio speed got nerfed while Zen % damage was brought down to 30 it might be okay. Even then Zen is really strong compared to Mercy/Ana but Idk how that would pan out with both Zen/Lucio nerfed.

No McCree still needed that buff, he was kinda bad at everything back then. At least now he's good at mid-range and can function as the anti-harasser again. He's still seeing a lot of action at the pro level because he synergies with the Zenyatta-Lucio meta.

He still had things like char specific flash and high mid range damage. His mid range damage now is barely buffed actually. All they did was give him 3m and change FtH. The problem with buffing him like that is just they nerfed Soldier really hard at the same time and Widow is still absent. He's the best hitscan DPS uncontested when before there were choices to make between him/Soldier. They should honestly just bring back Soldier a bit to finish out the balance roller coaster with them and see what happens,
 

IKizzLE

Member
Really fun Gaf train today. Kind of shocked that I'm two levels below where I started today but when the train was at full speed we had really nice run.

Props for getting that sudden death 5v6 at the end when my internet crapped out (again!) in that last game.

Can I get on this GAF train or nah??
 

zoukka

Member
Soldier is still better among mortals. Pro's can get higher % shots in with McCree and thus do more damage, but for us plebs Soldier is way more reliable.
 

Jarate

Banned
So guys, what weapons are yyou going to spend you 300 blizzard purple currency on?

which gold guns are you going to get, cause im thinking either Reaper or Zarya.
 

Nimby

Banned
Half dmg, are you kidding? Glad you don't work at blizzard.

There is an ability that lowers defense by 50%, why is the opposite such a bad idea?

just ideas bruh, don't have to sound snarky. I didn't go into every little detail either, but the shield should act like Discord (must maintain line of sight but a different drawback for Sym) , but altered to give it advantages and disadvantages so it doesn't 100% counter discord
 

Soulflarz

Banned
lol, what made 'em think they could handle the 60+ players your level would bring?
mLmBibQ.png

Cocky youtubers?

It was awful through and through. Girl was making jokes about how all girls only play healers, guys were insisting a tank is optional and lucyatta (my new name lucyatta>zencio) isn't needed, etc

Offensive bastion

"oh these are 60s? They aren't that good even..." as we lose

I didn't even do decently cause I was too scared to do anything without being maimed. Can't flank when your team has literally no front line.
 

Anne

Member
Soldier is still better among mortals. Pro's can get higher % shots in with McCree and thus do more damage, but for us plebs Soldier is way more reliable.

Ish. MCree should basically always have higher potential DPS if he hits every shot. Soldier even in solo q is a bit underwhelming at times. When you pick Soldier you're wanting a bit more consistent DPS than McCree's baseline stuff, but even then he's a bit short. It really just sucks that he was fine before and would be an awesome counterpart to current McCree if it weren't for the nerf.
 

Odrion

Banned
It's okay, but it's still allowing a support to have the same health pool as a DPS while also being able to 1v1 them.
It works out because his kit lack mobility or self-defense mechanics. If your backend harassers are any good, they'll keep a Zenyatta dead. If you nerf his damage where he can't provide adequate damage then he's back to being useless again, Blizzard wants offensive healers in their game.
Actually Bastion is balanced around the top 1% by basically not being viable to them outside of extremely niche situations. The way Bastion is designed that if he was good to them in a general sense the game would honestly just play like garbage. It's better for game health for him to be how he is and it also works out for him in lower MMR brackets as far as perception goes.
also I missed this but I think we're agreeing on the same thing here in regards to blizzard not balancing for the 1%.
 

Ertai

Member
So guys, what weapons are yyou going to spend you 300 blizzard purple currency on?

which gold guns are you going to get, cause im thinking either Reaper or Zarya.

Tracer all the way! Hoping to hit rank 65 to be able to buy 2 sets but that's likely not going to happen.
 

ramyeon

Member
So guys, what weapons are yyou going to spend you 300 blizzard purple currency on?

which gold guns are you going to get, cause im thinking either Reaper or Zarya.
When I eventually do get enough to get one (Won't be this season I'm sure) it'll be for Zarya.
 

xaosslug

Member
Cocky youtubers?

It was awful through and through. Girl was making jokes about how all girls only play healers, guys were insisting a tank is optional and lucyatta (my new name lucyatta>zencio) isn't needed, etc

Offensive bastion

"oh these are 60s? They aren't that good even..." as we lose

I didn't even do decently cause I was too scared to do anything without being maimed. Can't flank when your team has literally no front line.

omg, speaking of I was in a match (me + a team of 5, all mic'd, except me) and I go Zenny, and the Mercy on the team takes that as a personal affront. They're like 'Um, I'm Mercy?! We don't need another healer! Hello?' they would not shut up.

it was a mess. -___-
 

Anne

Member
Symmetra can do that too if close enough, it works out because their kits lack mobility or self-defense mechanics. If your backend harassers are any good, they'll keep a Zenyatta dead.

Nah, Zen actually has range and can 2 shot people in under a second. Sym is way weaker and easier to play around. The problem is a "backline harasser" can actually just get 2 shot by Zen. Also at higher levels you don't get to go into that backline really, you just get called out and murdered. You have to have a strong engage to jump on Zen like Winston/Zarya or you have to hope the Zen fucks up pretty hard.

Zen's lack of mobility is a weakness, but it's actually overcome by how insane his damage is on top of a normal health pool. It also matters less when a good team basically babysits him so it's a lot harder to jump on him in an even fight.

Dude can be offensive but allowing him to straight 1v1 primary damage dealers while also throwing damage down on whoever he wants is a bit much. I like Zen, but the way he is now is just way too much.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
omg, speaking of I was in a match (me + a team of 5, all mic'd, except me) and I go Zenny, and the Mercy on the team takes that as a personal affront. They're like 'Um, I'm Mercy?! We don't need another healer! Hello?' they would not shut up.

it was a mess. -___-

I understand why some stay in the 50s. Take the loss, boost that MMR, never see them again.
 

zoukka

Member
Ish. MCree should basically always have higher potential DPS if he hits every shot. Soldier even in solo q is a bit underwhelming at times. When you pick Soldier you're wanting a bit more consistent DPS than McCree's baseline stuff, but even then he's a bit short. It really just sucks that he was fine before and would be an awesome counterpart to current McCree if it weren't for the nerf.

Usually on my level (50-60) McCrees either shine or do nothing. An encounter with McCree can be like this:

He lands a headshot and a bodyshot, killing someone in two hits.

or

He misses two-three shots and dies.

The difference is huge, whereas Soldier always gets some value and can easily sprint in and out of danger and faster back to the fight after death. And of course he has a heal that everyone can use.
 

Anne

Member
Usually on my level (50-60) McCrees either shine or do nothing. An encounter with McCree can be like this:

He lands a headshot and a bodyshot, killing someone in two hits.

or

He misses two-three shots and dies.

The difference is huge, whereas Soldier always gets some value and can easily sprint in and out of danger and faster back to the fight after death. And of course he has a heal that everyone can use.

I'm not denying the logic, I'm just saying Soldier could be a bit better still is all so that he'd be worth putting in a DPS slot at a bit higher level. It wouldn't take a whole lot really, just making his shots a bit more consistent than now would do it.
 

zoukka

Member
I'm not denying the logic, I'm just saying Soldier could be a bit better still is all so that he'd be worth putting in a DPS slot at a bit higher level. It wouldn't take a whole lot really, just making his shots a bit more consistent than now would do it.

Yeah I agree, but I also see why they want his DPS to be lower than McCree. He gets out of control on lower ranks pretty easily whereas McCree always requires skillshots.

The Pro meta is always stale in OW. I can't remember a varied roster since beta.
 
go for 65! You're so close!
While that's true, 60 is a stretch already. I'm ok admitting I'm not Top 10% material.

I'll still play competitive, but unless I somehow get to 63-64, I won't sweat it. I'm glad I got this with a week and half to go.

Edit: Maybe it was karma for Blizzard making my second summer games legendary the same fucking skin as the first.
 
So guys, what weapons are yyou going to spend you 300 blizzard purple currency on?

which gold guns are you going to get, cause im thinking either Reaper or Zarya.

Junkrat. He deserves it.

I think Reaper, Zarya, Winston, Junkrat, Torb & Reinhardt look the best. I'm leaning towards Junkrat but the truth is, I think the paintjob on his jester weapon is pretty sweet.

If Torb's turret turned gold, I'd seriously consider it.
 

Mutombo

Member
I started at 50, got down to 38, and now can't seem to climb up higher than 40. I read that when you do really well in a match you will still go up in rank, but do you need to get 5 gold medals for that then, or what? I always have couple of gold medals in shitty matches, but it never goes up. Then again, I sometimes have a lack of medals as Winston, good for disrupting their team, bad for getting objective points, when we win.
 

zoukka

Member
Gold guns look too tacky for my edgelord costume

So they fit.

I started at 50, got down to 38, and now can't seem to climb up higher than 40. I read that when you do really well in a match you will still go up in rank, but do you need to get 5 gold medals for that then, or what? I always have couple of gold medals in shitty matches, but it never goes up. Then again, I sometimes have a lack of medals as Winston, good for disrupting their team, bad for getting objective points, when we win.

Medals don't affect your rank that much in my experience.
 

KarmaCow

Member
I guess it's because everyone is scrambling to get points for the golden weapons but holy shit there is a noticeable change while playing comp now, even in solo queue. After ranking down 9 times, I'm back up 6 in a couple days and most of those games have been relatively easy wins.

Medals don't affect your rank that much in my experience.

Yea if that's true your performance affects your rank ups, it's certainly not relative to the team. I've had games where I had 4 golds and a silver, getting next to nothing and other games where I was clearly carried by the premade and ranked up a ton.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
So they fit.



Medals don't affect your rank that much in my experience.

h-hey

they also mean nothing! Unless you're quad gold. Then congrats.

If I solo kill 20 to end the gunfight, I can easily be bronze for not 1 damage pinging vs a lucio. Terrible metric, I hate medals in all regards.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I guess it's because everyone is scrambling to get points for the golden weapons but holy shit there is a noticeable change while playing comp now, even in solo queue. After ranking down 9 times, I'm back up 6 in a couple days and most of those games have been relatively easy wins.

But is it a change or are you just getting the other end of those losses that ranked you down?

Maybe the teams who lost to you are experiencing the same matches that ranked you down.
 
Playing McCree can be odd. Sometimes I feel like I had my reticle dead on but I miss a bunch of shots and other times I can headshot a Tracer as she comes off a blink.
 
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