Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
mmm, I love a good steamroll on point A leading me to build up enough ult to nano boost the rein to steamroll point B.
Love, ana.
Love, ana.
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Overwatch |OT5| 15 Million Strong, None Are On The Payload
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PalaceBrother
Member
I came in at 2200 and am now at 1900. We had a hard fought win and I gained another 9 points. Arg.
toastyToast
Member
I think it should bottom you out until you get to Diamond/Master. Like, if you're a gold player skills wise what's the use in throwing you back into silver after a run of bad luck. Even then make it so that if you really don't deserve to be there you get a forced demotion after 10 consecutive losses. Just keep people at the baseline for the category and make them crawl themselves out. Just giving people an insignia is kind of dumb, people are gonna feel like shit playing people full ranks below what their highest tiers were.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
The funny thing is that the insignia is their way of making people not feel too bad for dropping ranks haha.
Sothis Krieg
Member
Love playing Zarya (PC) but hell this afternoon i encountered extremely toxic people who thinks she can shield everyone and that the shield'ally CD is 1sec. Granted sometimes my shields could be better but well.
"ZARYA l2P SHIELD ME FFS"
"But i shielded the lucio that was caught in the Reinhard charge""
"L2P NOOB"
"Ok"
I think i'm gonna mute more quickly now.
"ZARYA l2P SHIELD ME FFS"
"But i shielded the lucio that was caught in the Reinhard charge""
"L2P NOOB"
"Ok"
I think i'm gonna mute more quickly now.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Elo systems for games with a component of variance always have wild swings. I used to play a lot of Magic: the Gathering online, and it had an Elo system for rating. Magic has a significant component of variance (duh), and your Elo would get punished for losing games that you literally could never win due to your draws. The upshot is that you have to play significantly more games to stabilize your Elo (so that the "bad beats" are a smaller overall percentage of your games), and you have to really consider your average Elo over a span of time rather than your instantaneous Elo.
It's the same here, except the randomness is the performance of your teammates as opposed to the cards you draw.
It's the same here, except the randomness is the performance of your teammates as opposed to the cards you draw.
That's exactly what they're for. But when the SR numbers drop it still feels bad.
obviously swings will happen but eventually it should even out and you'll end up where you belong
that doesn't happen in this game because there's all kinds of stuff beyond just whether you win or lose that affect the points you gain or lose, including streaks (which makes zero sense)
even human players watching a single game wouldn't be able to fairly allocate points based on player performance, there's no way an algorithm that has to do it instantly after a match ends can even come close
the only sensible system is a flat number that applies to both teams
Kor of Memory
Member
I'm honestly not sure what you guys are complaining about right now. The system seems perfectly fine to me.
The game seems to do a decent job of placing you, but doesn't cement you in so hard that there is no escape.
I think a lot of people are just unhappy with their rank but don't want to admit that maybe those ranks are about where they belong.
That said, I would say every person is probably going to fluctuate naturally around 200-300 points. Because sometimes your game is on point, and other times you're shit and there is nothing you can do about it.
The game seems to do a decent job of placing you, but doesn't cement you in so hard that there is no escape.
I think a lot of people are just unhappy with their rank but don't want to admit that maybe those ranks are about where they belong.
That said, I would say every person is probably going to fluctuate naturally around 200-300 points. Because sometimes your game is on point, and other times you're shit and there is nothing you can do about it.
I think some people have gone up single digits for a win. It's silly.
why should you gain/lose more points progressively as you go on a win/lose streak? why are teams commonly arranged as one side being 2-3 groups and the other side being all solos? do you really think the game can algorithmically determine your individual contribution to a match? why is blizzard not explaining any of the concrete factors that go into your points? does it make sense for the system to disincentivize playing support as it does now?
even if i placed grandmaster and never lost a game i would think this whole thing is stupid and nonsensical
divisionbyzorro
Member
My point is that any system that is:
A) based on Elo
B) contains variance
Will always have swings in rating. It's inherent to the system. The only way to get to what you're asking for is to ditch Elo and move to something else.
Streak bonuses make sense in the abstract; if you keep winning even though the system keeps raising your rating and thus keeps matching you with "better" players, maybe the system should keep raising your rating faster and faster until you finally lose. Remember that your current SR/Elo is nothing more than the system's latest "guess" as to your "true" rank. If you go on a statistically abnormal streak, it's a flag to the system that their guess is way off-base. By giving you a "streak bonus," the system is saying something like "it looks like you've had a bit of a level-up moment - let's test you out and see if we can get closer to where you belong a little bit faster."
Random thoughts here so bear with me.
Regarding SR - The more you play the more accurately it will reflect your true skill level and that goes for everyone else as well. In other words, having someone on the other team who's just finished their placement matches they might or might not actually be at the right SR level and this leads to a lot of the wonky games we are seeing right now. I know I've already had games that were steamrolls and not even close but it is early season yet. The more folks play the more "even" it should get. I don't know how many games the system really needs to get it right but I'm thinking at least 25 with 50 being better. Bottom line, get in there and play Comp even if it hurts at first.
Regarding the new Meta: Mei is a force. A smart one can almost do what Zarya can in terms of locking down a point or group of enemies for her team mates to clean up on kills. I am seeing her in almost every game now which leads me to think about her counters. Her hard counters would be anyone who can put out burst damage at range, namely Pharah and Widowmaker, neither of which are in a great place right now. It will be interesting to see how things progress and if either or both get a little bit of a buff.
Regarding Zenyatta: I feel like he is a great solo que pick for Competitive but he is not a great solo healer. In my first Comp game last night (on Eichenwalde) I actually picked Pharah because I didn't want to solo heal on attack as Zenny. Someone else picked Anna (last, of course) so I switched back to Zenny and we proceeded to stomp. I may use this strategy more in the future; pick DPS quickly and then switch to Zen.
Regarding playstyle: I've noticed that I play to not die, first and foremost. In my "good" game with Zenyatta last night I only had 16 elims vs 2 deaths but I had 39 defensive assists and 63% kill participation. I tend to hang back and try to keep heals on folks while staying out of danger and assisting my dps as needed. But even when I am playing a dps class, like Reaper, I don't typically have over 30 eliminations but my deaths are also a small number. Should I go for more kills? Should I be a little riskier? I'm honestly curious.
Lastly - I think Winston is the next hero that I am going to start spending quality time with. I feel like he has a pretty straightforward playstyle and he caters to smart play much moreso than twitch play, which is right up my alley. He is probably the tank I see played the least at the Gold tier and that's a shame because his kit is tailor made for harassing supports and chasing off squishy dps characters.
Regarding SR - The more you play the more accurately it will reflect your true skill level and that goes for everyone else as well. In other words, having someone on the other team who's just finished their placement matches they might or might not actually be at the right SR level and this leads to a lot of the wonky games we are seeing right now. I know I've already had games that were steamrolls and not even close but it is early season yet. The more folks play the more "even" it should get. I don't know how many games the system really needs to get it right but I'm thinking at least 25 with 50 being better. Bottom line, get in there and play Comp even if it hurts at first.
Regarding the new Meta: Mei is a force. A smart one can almost do what Zarya can in terms of locking down a point or group of enemies for her team mates to clean up on kills. I am seeing her in almost every game now which leads me to think about her counters. Her hard counters would be anyone who can put out burst damage at range, namely Pharah and Widowmaker, neither of which are in a great place right now. It will be interesting to see how things progress and if either or both get a little bit of a buff.
Regarding Zenyatta: I feel like he is a great solo que pick for Competitive but he is not a great solo healer. In my first Comp game last night (on Eichenwalde) I actually picked Pharah because I didn't want to solo heal on attack as Zenny. Someone else picked Anna (last, of course) so I switched back to Zenny and we proceeded to stomp. I may use this strategy more in the future; pick DPS quickly and then switch to Zen.
Regarding playstyle: I've noticed that I play to not die, first and foremost. In my "good" game with Zenyatta last night I only had 16 elims vs 2 deaths but I had 39 defensive assists and 63% kill participation. I tend to hang back and try to keep heals on folks while staying out of danger and assisting my dps as needed. But even when I am playing a dps class, like Reaper, I don't typically have over 30 eliminations but my deaths are also a small number. Should I go for more kills? Should I be a little riskier? I'm honestly curious.
Lastly - I think Winston is the next hero that I am going to start spending quality time with. I feel like he has a pretty straightforward playstyle and he caters to smart play much moreso than twitch play, which is right up my alley. He is probably the tank I see played the least at the Gold tier and that's a shame because his kit is tailor made for harassing supports and chasing off squishy dps characters.
Only thing I don't like is the streakyness of it all. I get why bonuses are there for winstreaks but it feels too reliant on it to shoot up to another tier if you're hovering around the middle consistently.
Well, that and the nerf to end of season points. Because damn, GM is way harder to hit conpared to 65 last season which was apparently already the minority of the playerbase.
TheLetdown
Member
The problem is in incentives and how unclear everything is in regards to why you gained or lost what you did.
Anecdotally, I had a game where we won on a complete blow out. I had 3 golds. I gained about 28. The very next game, we lost instead of forcing the draw in Overtime, super close match. Again, 3 golds. But I lost about 35.
The confusion as to why is what's irking people. And because I don't know why, I don't know how to adjust to try and maximize the amount of points I can gain back, so it makes it increasingly easy to say "fuck it" and not queue up for another.
There's a dude on my friends list who is a mercy + lucio main. He placed in diamond and reached master before anyone else on my list did.
I've also had games where I literally went Loss-Win-Loss-Win with a net gain in SR, so even the "always lose more than you gain" thing is a myth.
MastAndo
Member
One of the newcomers here, thanks the free weekend and I'm enjoying myself so far and playing fairly well (I think)...but man, my win loss record is atrocious. I'm 24-44 (level 16) at the moment. I'm switching between Roadhog and Zenyatta for now depending on the situation, and feel I hold my own, but me and 1 or 2 friends with some randoms seem to often find ourselves running into juggernaut teams.
Then again, perhaps I'm worse than I think I am, as I did get a message two nights ago from a friendly fellow calling me an effing moron and blaming me for a loss. He seemed nice.
Then again, perhaps I'm worse than I think I am, as I did get a message two nights ago from a friendly fellow calling me an effing moron and blaming me for a loss. He seemed nice.
This has happened. Bless you Stylosa for pointing it out. Fuck those whiny meta bitches.
https://youtu.be/TQC9iAexr1E
https://youtu.be/TQC9iAexr1E
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Had an ana in koth, and I shit you not this happened all the time.
Enemy zarya: "Going for the toddler steal!"
Me (lucio): "Let's break it down!"
Ana: "You're powered up."
Except it's to me.
Lucio.
All the fucking time.
Now I love ana.
But why are you ulting in the middle of graviton surge where it's hard to aim because everyone is clumped up together?
For fucks sakes.
Enemy zarya: "Going for the toddler steal!"
Me (lucio): "Let's break it down!"
Ana: "You're powered up."
Except it's to me.
Lucio.
All the fucking time.
Now I love ana.
But why are you ulting in the middle of graviton surge where it's hard to aim because everyone is clumped up together?
For fucks sakes.
the other problem is perverse incentives. if people figure out the system (or just think that they have) then they will start behaving in ways that they think will maximize their points, which may or may not be the best for their team in any particular game. as i said before, if mercys get a lot from boosting and basically nothing from healing they are going to start boosting and not healing.
the game cannot and will not ever be able to accurately determine a particular player's contribution to a win or loss. for example, a winston that gets no kills and feeds for an entire game may have kept 2 enemy flankers from doing anything and forced everyone off the point with his ult, but if the game just looks at numbers he will get fuck all when his team wins.
no, it just means that those things didn't happen to you or your friend, i fully believe that other people have gotten fucked on support points and lose far more than they gain
the inconsistency itself is the problem, and the fix is far easier than the incredibly complicated and maddening way they're doing it now
This is exactly how I feel when people in my match complain about picks lol
I powered up a Lucio 3 times in one match because every time I pressed Q he magically jumped right behind the Rein. I cried and switched to Zen after that.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I mean if that was the situation it was my bad.
But she was ulting when everyone is in the middle of a graviton surge.
When I sound barriered everyone so she most likely could have just waited and then ulted properly.
But she was ulting when everyone is in the middle of a graviton surge.
When I sound barriered everyone so she most likely could have just waited and then ulted properly.
Yeah pretty much if your good enough you'll climb regardless of placement. My girlfriend was 2500 yesterday and we've been alternating goes, one match each and now she's almost diamond.
Pharah is Mei's best counter, followed by Zarya and Reaper, IMO. Zarya can bubble to drastically extend the time she has to kill Mei. Reaper should be able to kill her faster than she can freeze him, and can wraith form to escape her if needed.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I only really tell people to change if things don't work out initially.
Triforce141
Member
Probably thopught she would save someone with it but who knows. It is a very bad call to drop it then.
Elo boosting people!? triggred.
jk
What are you two playing the most? Support, Tank, Attack?
I get told sometimes Lucio is not good on Defense and then I proceed to end the match with 6 minute obj time. I cannot for the life of me play Mercy lol.
Astral/H3X
Member
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I solo healed and held for 2 points as zen today.
At some point people should know the health pack locations.
Then switch to ana on attack and just steamrolled. Ana is seriously just as scary as zen in a dive comp.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Kinda dependant on the situation, but I tend to pull out my pistol instead of damage boosting because sometimes the DPS just works out better. Also because I get depressed by the quality of our DPS.
But it's not like we played 1 zen 1 mercy 4 flankers. Just topping up tanks could have easily outhealed me because a zen should be looking out for the health of the flankers.
I'm a terrible mercy though so whatever. I have no game sense on when to use rez.
That happened to me yesterday. We're 2-2 KOTH with very tight games. Final match dude says we need Mercy bad so I switch off my 12k healing 39 elims Zen to a reaper so someone else can be mercy with our Lucio. We got steamrolled badly. Mercy doesn't do jack shit unless people are dying together on point.
Yeah, I don't know how to help in those situations. I've gotten pretty good at knowing what to do in different scenarios when it comes to disorganized, unresponsive teams, but teams not pushing is a hard one.
You DPS, the tank just stands there (reins standing at the choke with their sheild up and nobody behind them to take advantage makes me question people's sanity btw).
You tank, push in, no one follows you. Or the opposite and people run in front of you and get slaughtered for no reason.
The best option I've come up with is be a mobile hero and flank all the way behind the point, you probably get a pick, not that it matters because your team won't take advantage of it. But the hope is that the enemy team is also stupid and all leave the choke to deal with you, freeing up the choke for teams to come in.
That's happened a bunch, but just as much, suddenty more than half of the enemy team is upon me, and my team is STILL nowhere in sight, chilling at the choke trying to deal with one enemy or, idk bashing their heads against a wall, drooling?
Enemy team kills me, returns to choke, rinse and repeat.
Shrug.
Went 5/1 and she went 3/2 so kinda boosting. We both tank. I zarya while she prefers dva.
Edit: Decided to look at the stats and yeah it's not kinda boosting. Definitely boosting.
That was yesterday. Currently a win away from diamond I think. Kinda did it to help her get to diamond and see how hard it was to climb since people complain a lot before anyone tells me off for boosting 😣
Personally I find the SR system pretty fair the way it is.
And as for team comp and toxicity, frankly speaking I would focus more on improving my personal play and making smart character picks instead of worrying about the 2-2-2 meta or in-game communication - I solo queue on console with join team voice chat permanently turned off. I rely solely on the emote wheel, in game audio cues and general in-game awareness.
And as for team comp and toxicity, frankly speaking I would focus more on improving my personal play and making smart character picks instead of worrying about the 2-2-2 meta or in-game communication - I solo queue on console with join team voice chat permanently turned off. I rely solely on the emote wheel, in game audio cues and general in-game awareness.
Team chat blows. People telling you what to pick right off the bat is pretty damn annoying. Let people try whatever they're good at first. If it doesn't work, then you switch. Some people like to masturbate to those Pro level meta videos and forget how to be respectful to other players.
Kor of Memory
Member
Don't forget to factor in your opponents skill level.
If you are a 2500, and you lose a game to a team average of 2350, you're going to receive a bigger penalty than if you lost to a team average of 2650
Wyndstryker
Member
Id say Ana is scarier then zen on a dive comp. She gets ULT faster than zen so can probably get a boost off before anyone else gets an ult
Don't worry about it. I was just joking in my post, I didn't mean anything serious with my previous post.
I think I am gonna play more tanks now, No matter how well I play as Lucio I feel like I can't contribute enough to push more wins.
I feel like there are sooooo many bad diamonds around this season, like, the rank ranges are way too broad or something. I went on a 6 game losing streak (over 2 days) and lost 90 points in 2 games combined, even when carrying with reaper on one game. Just really unbelievable the amount of people that use odd choices like Symmetra the entire game and Torbjorn even when they're Diamond ranked. Like Diamond is supposed to be the equivalent of a 60 last season right? most of the 60 and above in S1 generally knew the right team composition and such but it seems like in S2 it's not the case.
KINGofCRA5H
Member
Did a match last night on PS4 where there was a group of 3 diamonds on the other team, with 3 randoms. One of the randoms hadn't placed yet, which is what they said can't happen. So, yeah, Blizzard still has work to do.
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