Shake Appeal
Member
They let Sniper McCree run rampant in the wild for a little while...
I'm gonna play so much Hanzo tonight. Old hitboxes plus buffs to travel time and movement speed? Okay.
Overwatch |OT5| 15 Million Strong, None Are On The Payload
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I'm gonna play so much Hanzo tonight. Old hitboxes plus buffs to travel time and movement speed? Okay.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Glad you're happy staying in a 90's world where everything has to be square boxes around a character model, some of us would rather it be actually good. Check my last image where I show were you have to aim to get a hs now (and if you think i'm exagerating go on the ptr and try it out, because I am no way exaggerating it).
Glad you forgot to add this
Other games can get hitboxes right, and we can hope that overwatch keeps it right as it is now and not revert it like on the ptr. The increase to hanzo's arrows speed + this general hitbox size is double kick in the balls for us that actually don't want to play a game where every day you wonder how the fuck that hanzo just killed you from 40 yards with a bullshit shot
I didn't "forget" to add it. I specifically didn't add it because Counter-Strike is a game that revolves around hitscan weapons, so the comparison is irrelevant. Unless you think Quake and Counter-Strike are basically the same thing.
LumpOfCole
Member
The Genji changes are nice but the rest of the balance attempts seem rather ineffectual.
Lucio + Zenyatta are slightly less effective but still "almost a must pick in every lineup" / "almost mandatory pick".
Give Mercy Holy Nova! Do it!
Holy Nova should just come with the ult.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Initial reaction: I like everything in this patch besides the Genji triple-jump combo. I think they need to give him that back, but I think the rest of the Genji changes are fine, tbh..
Nuno Pinto
Member
Jesus.
btw, those wondering
that's where you can get a headshot on now. That's bullshit
JESUS.
I seriously hope they revise some of this changes. The one that affects me most is the "triple" jump on Genji, it completely ruins his mobility... really hope they backtrack on that one.
xaosslug
Member
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Boo, I just recently got the Hanzo legendary so now I'll seem like a bandwagon-er for wanting to use it.
Genji nerfs might seem overboard but they probably don't like the overall level of mobility/burst he has compared to other characters. It might be less about competitive balance per se and more about the baseline they want each character to be anchored around; Genji was probably just too far outside the harbor so to speak. Pharah trades off her aerial advantage with poor mobility, but Genji can spend most of his time airborne without a similar tradeoff. Also Blizzard normally doesn't like it when animation cancelling becomes the optimal way to play (they have a similar problem with Demon Hunters in WoW which they are trying to get rid of).
In terms of Lucio/Zenyatta, I don't expect any major changes in competitive. Discord is still superior to every other debuff in the game, let alone comparing it to Mercy. Mercy can only buff one character's damage and it means she has to forgo healing. Zenyatta can both heal and dps while using discord, and more importantly, it applies to enemy characters and not friendly characters which means you can get up to 6x the damage compared to Mercy. Their main problem is that abilities/mechanics like that are just so fundamentally good that nothing else will ever compare. An ability that makes an enemy take X% more damage from all sources is always going to be mechanically superior to an ability that buffs a friendly character's damage by X%, full stop. It doesn't matter what number you put in for X, the enemy debuff option will always be the better choice.
Similarly, Lucio's movement speed buff is always going to be mandatory in my opinion because movement speed is king in an FPS. To help illustrate this point, imagine if Lucio's movement speed aura was actually a debuff that slowed the enemy team's movement. I think we all implicitly understand why that would be an amazingly powerful and extremely frustrating ability to play against; but nothing is different just because Lucio buffs your team. It's all about the relative speed anyway, how Team A moves faster than Team B is less important than the fact that they do move faster. Overwatch is supposed to be a game where choke-points are important and more static defense characters are relevant. Lucio utterly negates that design and says, "nah, we're just gonna run past everything and blow up your healer immediately" (I would argue the extremely powerful and mobile offensive characters also hurt that design as well).
Furthermore, Lucio/Zen's ults are some of the best in the game because they prevent death and "pause" the action, thus they can serve as a counter to nearly every situation and they are offensively useful to boot. Mercy's revive is essentially a better version of Symmetra's teleporter, both of which are mechanically beneficial only if your team is dead so they cannot really be used offensively to take control points or push a payload. You can look at the MOBA scene for design analogy, but the idea is that self-revives and things of that nature don't normally change the outcome of a fight because the important part of the fight is over before they come into play.
Genji nerfs might seem overboard but they probably don't like the overall level of mobility/burst he has compared to other characters. It might be less about competitive balance per se and more about the baseline they want each character to be anchored around; Genji was probably just too far outside the harbor so to speak. Pharah trades off her aerial advantage with poor mobility, but Genji can spend most of his time airborne without a similar tradeoff. Also Blizzard normally doesn't like it when animation cancelling becomes the optimal way to play (they have a similar problem with Demon Hunters in WoW which they are trying to get rid of).
In terms of Lucio/Zenyatta, I don't expect any major changes in competitive. Discord is still superior to every other debuff in the game, let alone comparing it to Mercy. Mercy can only buff one character's damage and it means she has to forgo healing. Zenyatta can both heal and dps while using discord, and more importantly, it applies to enemy characters and not friendly characters which means you can get up to 6x the damage compared to Mercy. Their main problem is that abilities/mechanics like that are just so fundamentally good that nothing else will ever compare. An ability that makes an enemy take X% more damage from all sources is always going to be mechanically superior to an ability that buffs a friendly character's damage by X%, full stop. It doesn't matter what number you put in for X, the enemy debuff option will always be the better choice.
Similarly, Lucio's movement speed buff is always going to be mandatory in my opinion because movement speed is king in an FPS. To help illustrate this point, imagine if Lucio's movement speed aura was actually a debuff that slowed the enemy team's movement. I think we all implicitly understand why that would be an amazingly powerful and extremely frustrating ability to play against; but nothing is different just because Lucio buffs your team. It's all about the relative speed anyway, how Team A moves faster than Team B is less important than the fact that they do move faster. Overwatch is supposed to be a game where choke-points are important and more static defense characters are relevant. Lucio utterly negates that design and says, "nah, we're just gonna run past everything and blow up your healer immediately" (I would argue the extremely powerful and mobile offensive characters also hurt that design as well).
Furthermore, Lucio/Zen's ults are some of the best in the game because they prevent death and "pause" the action, thus they can serve as a counter to nearly every situation and they are offensively useful to boot. Mercy's revive is essentially a better version of Symmetra's teleporter, both of which are mechanically beneficial only if your team is dead so they cannot really be used offensively to take control points or push a payload. You can look at the MOBA scene for design analogy, but the idea is that self-revives and things of that nature don't normally change the outcome of a fight because the important part of the fight is over before they come into play.
There is no reason to go back to square boxes because we got projectiles. it's 2016, and using boxes causes more problems than using actual proper body hitboxes. We're moving backwards with this change is they revert it. And this is not an issue of all projectiles. This was not the reason why pharah is not used and it was not a nerf to junk. They were fine before the nerf, they are fine after.
Mei is still too slow and immobile to be good use for high-level KOTH where mobility reigns supreme. She can get picked off or forced to waste cooldowns before the point and thus, giving the enemy team advantage on the point.
If her team is in control of the point, she will have a hard time adding value against high-damage ults without a well-placed ice wall, and yet that wall won't stop a Hanzo ult. If she has to respond to an enemy ult with an ice block, she isn't helping her team during those crucial moments and Mei might be just spending that time watching teammates die.
Who would she replace in the standard team composition? Tanks provide more value to the team and their ultimates perform similar roles as Blizzard for spacing. She isn't replacing either Lucio or Zenyatta. One of the offense heroes? You would be replacing a higher damage hero that has a damage-based ultimate with Mei who does less damage and has a spacing ultimate.
Ok, maybe that was a bad argument on my part being anecdotal and all but Blizzard has the pick rate stats and I'm sure they can see E/D ratios and a whole lot of other stuff that we can't. And Lucio just did get a nerf.
The better argument is that the SS / melee combo was broken and unintentional and that by fixing it they are bringing Genji back in line.
In regards to the double jump wall climb thing I actually have no idea. I'm in favor of him getting that back so hopefully that will happen after Blizzard gets feedback from the PTR.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Then what should they do? Because honestly, having hitboxes be the same for projectiles and hitscan is asinine. It gives McCree a tangible advantage over every single non-tank character, makes Hanzo into a joke, makes landing shurikens consistently with Genji pretty much a crapshoot or requiring exceptional finesse at all times, causes weird issues with Zenyatta's orbs.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I come bearing a gift
McCree still exists and Discord orb is still viable... and now Hanzo will be shooting her out of the sky.
Oh man, I need this.
MarioHead3
Banned
Might be new avatar time.
Mccree isnt a problem because he can always be toned down if it gets out of control (and on live hes strong but not the end all be all, I personally think hes in a good spot). Hanzo is getting his arrows sped up which should be fine and genji could have the same thing happen (but who are we kidding, genji is deader than roadkill if these changes go through).
Blowup robots and chill incoming with mei
LucidMomentum
Member
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Pharah seems like she'll be in an even worse place if these projectile changes go through.
Paint me like one of your Australian girls
Newtype-001
Member
MarioHead3
Banned
"Freeze! Fuck You!"
You switched avatars. Now I won't recognize you unless I try.
That would be dong zhu, fuck you =)
so Hanzo's hitbox is back to the bullshit hitbox he used to have? How fun. He's still bad though.
reading those Zen changes again, I do think the change on discord's damage going from 50% to 30% is a big deal and was much needed, but I don't think it's enough for him to be replaced by Mercy.
Phara now mostly sucks because of Zen's discord orb and because of Mccree being able to kill her with 2 shots. both heroes are top tier and picked in pretty much every game
reading those Zen changes again, I do think the change on discord's damage going from 50% to 30% is a big deal and was much needed, but I don't think it's enough for him to be replaced by Mercy.
Zarya was always good, regardless of whatever support meta. if anything, Zen+Lucio are the best counters to her ult.
Phara now mostly sucks because of Zen's discord orb and because of Mccree being able to kill her with 2 shots. both heroes are top tier and picked in pretty much every game
Stone Ocean
Member
I'm so happy we finally get some persistent emotes
MarioHead3
Banned
optimus8936
Banned
What happens?
xaosslug
Member
but most Pharah's have already trained themselves to do the majority of their damage via splash damage/by hitting near opponents... now those will be 120dmg per shot direct hits! LMAO
MarioHead3
Banned
The game deletes itself.
EmCeeGramr
Member
good
Do they replace that with the "I'm wrestling with some insecurity issues in my life but thank you all for playing with me." line?
It's a deliberate design decision made for game balance. Hanzo's arrows are not hitscan and they don't rapid fire. His projectiles have to be large. Hanzo saw zero play with the "fixed" hitboxes and that was also a problem.
You know how hitboxes work so what's the mystery when Hanzo hits you? This sounds like a 100% psychological issue on your end that your brain cannot handle art assets and hitboxes that do not match. Not an issue with actual balance.
It turns your line into jokes like "I'm insecure and going through some issues, but thank you for playing with me."
optimus8936
Banned
OMG yes, this is amazing.
They actually did it!
Pharahs aren't getting an opportunity to be up in the air and lining up those shots. Projectile buff doesn't negate the issues that decreased her pick rate.
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