Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I think I do alright as ana.
Also I feel like roadhog is just as crucial. It's pretty much your only way to secure kills.
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- Thread starter ExMachina
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I think I do alright as ana.
Also I feel like roadhog is just as crucial. It's pretty much your only way to secure kills.
Zen Lucio combo can probably work if your tanks include roadhog and Zarya who are pretty self sufficient healwise. If your triple tank is Rein Winston and DVA which all need a ton of healing, that's too much for those two classes.
Also if one of your dps is soldier he has stronger healing than amp it up Lucio heal so that can cover added to zen Lucio as well.
Also if one of your dps is soldier he has stronger healing than amp it up Lucio heal so that can cover added to zen Lucio as well.
Bumbletron
Member
Hell, I'd say at this point if you run Winston or D.Va without an Ana, you are at a pretty massive disadvantage.
I think Ana is so good at healing that it's unhealthy for the game overall. She's a bit tougher to use on console with a controller so maybe she's more balanced there, but a really good sniper player using mouse will basically be able to keep everyone topped off from great distance at an almost broken pace.
You don't need Ana to make trip tank work. Roadhog + Soldier have self heals, D.Va + Rein have large armor pools and shields, Zarya has 200 shield, etc. It's pretty good without her. With her though, it gets substantially crazier. Having Zen over Ana also adds vulnerabilities that Ana doesn't have.
Weaknesses to comps are p big. Now look at this comp: Soldier/Roadhog/Reinhardt/D.Va/Ana/Lucio. Where is the weakness? What do you exploit to get an advantage? I don't have a clear answer. You can say that you can dive it like Misfits did, but what if the Soldier is swapped for a world class McCree? The comp itself has a lot of swaps built into it to cover weaknesses.
Meanwhile you have the Misfits comp that runs things like Tracer/Genji/Widow. That team has real weaknesses in the fact McCree and Roadhog can shut it down. It's also open to counter dive strats in general. The main space maker is Widow who has problems with things like D.Va. There are things to point at in there that you can mess with and counterstrat, and the swaps that team would have to make to deal would make it a much diff comp entirely.
I agree with Winston. D.Va's ridiculously huge armor pool makes it so she can hoenstly survive a dive with just a HArmony Orb though
Weaknesses to comps are p big. Now look at this comp: Soldier/Roadhog/Reinhardt/D.Va/Ana/Lucio. Where is the weakness? What do you exploit to get an advantage? I don't have a clear answer. You can say that you can dive it like Misfits did, but what if the Soldier is swapped for a world class McCree? The comp itself has a lot of swaps built into it to cover weaknesses.
Meanwhile you have the Misfits comp that runs things like Tracer/Genji/Widow. That team has real weaknesses in the fact McCree and Roadhog can shut it down. It's also open to counter dive strats in general. The main space maker is Widow who has problems with things like D.Va. There are things to point at in there that you can mess with and counterstrat, and the swaps that team would have to make to deal would make it a much diff comp entirely.
I agree with Winston. D.Va's ridiculously huge armor pool makes it so she can hoenstly survive a dive with just a HArmony Orb though
Bumbletron
Member
Not almost broken. Like a good Ana will keep things from dying for far too long. This includes herself.
Dva is just insane. The fact that you can shutdown so many ults is pretty broken along with being near indestructible if your healer is good. I just solo held the last point on overtime with Dva against 5 before ulting (ult builds so fast in a fight) and then getting in another mech which gave enough time for my entire team to spawn. Dva is definitely balanced...
Bumbletron
Member
I agree with Winston. D.Va's ridiculously huge armor pool makes it so she can honestly survive a dive with just a Harmony Orb though
Part of me thinks you are just saying that because you want to be able to kill her again, haha. But yeah, she honestly could probably fare fine without a healer for most of the match.
Skii, yeah, she does way too much damage you can't get away from as well, and I think that is one of the biggest things that is contributing to things right now. Like if she had all that health but had to actually try to kill things, it'd be different. You could just ignore her and make her run away. But the fact that she can kill anything now is a huge problem when combined with her new health pool.
This was in competitions where teams were straight up refusing to go meta because they didn't want to play it/didn't have the hero pool to pull it off. If the other team would run Ana, Zen would be useless pretty easily. His ult won't do anything against Ana, and she can keep people up through a surprising amount, even with discord.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I've seen pro teams going with a zen over ana nowadays though, especially in koth. Thing is, discord is still pretty good. Even ana can't keep up a discorded target that is being focused down.
Also some pro healers just prefer zen.
Also some pro healers just prefer zen.
I wouldn't say DM shutting down ults is in and of itself broken. It's probably a pretty good thing to have something like DM in case things like Nanovisor get out of control. The fact it is attached to 600 health, 400 armor, flying DPS machine is pretty crazy.
The theory is that over time that fades. Higher level teams (I'm talking Tier 1 like Envy, Rogue, Misfits, etc ) are punishing the Zen picks extremely hard. I'd like that to be wrong, but signs put to that being the most likely outcome over the next few weeks even.
The theory is that over time that fades. Higher level teams (I'm talking Tier 1 like Envy, Rogue, Misfits, etc ) are punishing the Zen picks extremely hard. I'd like that to be wrong, but signs put to that being the most likely outcome over the next few weeks even.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Hmm, misfits seem to be the ones pushing the zen moreso than others, but that obviously changes with the roster changes.
I would like zen to be interchangeable with ana though. I feel like that's the balance blizzard should strive for.
I would like zen to be interchangeable with ana though. I feel like that's the balance blizzard should strive for.
Bumbletron
Member
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Thing is he was in dreamhack, but who knows when it's against teams more well versed with the "meta comp" aka envyus and also against a world class ana like chips.
Seriously, chips did so much fucking work at OGN.
Seriously, chips did so much fucking work at OGN.
Misfits punished Zen with Zen + Tracer + Genji + Widow + Lucio etc. The comp they made is really good at that. That works less effectively against Ana, Zen himself loses to Ana in a lot of ways.
Like, think of it this way. People already know Zen counters, they are getting better at them , and Ana plays a good part in fighting him. Ana counters are flimsy atm, people are getting better with her specialized comps, etc.
So it's very likely that as western teams get better at Ana/tank set ups that Zenyatta declines. It's not impossible for some Zenyatta lord god like Custa to hold out and make it work for a bit, just extremely unlikely unless some major breakthrough happens relatively soon.
Also yeah, Chips is hands down the best Ana player in the world by a pretty ridiculous margin. Ryujehong and Zappis aren't slouches either, but the gaps in skill level between the different top Anas are pretty apparent.
Like, think of it this way. People already know Zen counters, they are getting better at them , and Ana plays a good part in fighting him. Ana counters are flimsy atm, people are getting better with her specialized comps, etc.
So it's very likely that as western teams get better at Ana/tank set ups that Zenyatta declines. It's not impossible for some Zenyatta lord god like Custa to hold out and make it work for a bit, just extremely unlikely unless some major breakthrough happens relatively soon.
Also yeah, Chips is hands down the best Ana player in the world by a pretty ridiculous margin. Ryujehong and Zappis aren't slouches either, but the gaps in skill level between the different top Anas are pretty apparent.
Fact is that it's really tough to outdamage 200 hitpoints a sec healing which is basically what Ana does to grenade buffed targets. It's too much.
That doesn't even touch on what the grenade provides to others. Roadhog gets to drink 600 hps if grenade buffed. A 75 hp health pack gives back 150 if grenade buffed. Lucio heal now hits 25 hps a sec passive and something like 66 hps a sec amped if grenade buffed.
That's a ridiculously strong support ability.
That doesn't even touch on what the grenade provides to others. Roadhog gets to drink 600 hps if grenade buffed. A 75 hp health pack gives back 150 if grenade buffed. Lucio heal now hits 25 hps a sec passive and something like 66 hps a sec amped if grenade buffed.
That's a ridiculously strong support ability.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Like honestly DVa is a pretty great counter to ana, and zen is a pretty good counter to DVa. DVa can pretty much stop Ana from doing anything and zen can just chase DVa away with discord.
Thing is if you have a DVa sitting on ana she can't sit on soldier.
Thing is if you have a DVa sitting on ana she can't sit on soldier.
Bumbletron
Member
If you are on KotH with a Tracer/Genji, though, she can just dive him with them regardless of discord and its puny effects on her massive pool of health and he melts. The idea with D.Va is that you sit on someone a few seconds until either something else kills it, or you do it yourself. Then it's on to the next one.
If you're running D.Va to sit on Ana's face your entire frontline just fell apart while D.Va spends several seconds dealing with Ana's 300 health + whatever peel she gets.
Zen is "good" against D.Va in the sense that he at least doesn't lose to her right now :v (still loses out more often than wins)
Zen is "good" against D.Va in the sense that he at least doesn't lose to her right now :v (still loses out more often than wins)
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
You're talking about a 2v1 situation. Not even ana can handle that. Sleep dart makes her better against divers, but zen should not be in a position where he can get dived at a huge numbers disadvantage.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Yeah, that's what I meant that it's not ideal because you'd want to sit on the soldier instead, but I can see some counterplay there that could make things more interesting. Definitely needs tweaking to get there.
Bumbletron
Member
The thing is that it should go: he's dove, melts in less than a second. Then the teammate that was with him dies in a second and the duo moves on to the next one. If you are running to dive, that is how effective you should aim for it to be. It's something you need cc or the tightest grouping you can do to really stop. Most of the time he will only be dove upon if he's out of position anyway, so while he shouldn't be in that position, sometimes you just get caught.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Easiest fix to Ana is just make her hitbox a bit wider. She's really hard to kill because she's really hard to hit. Smallest hitbox in the game, maybe.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Ana dies if she's out of position too though. Just like zen she has no mobility options, and while biotic grenade and sleep dart are god-tier tools when it comes to dealing with it, she's not going to win against a DVa or winston 1v1.
I mean, sometimes he needs to be in less than ideal positions for LoS or trance. Idk, I think we are all on the same page of "it's within the realm of possibility but still not great".
Having an extra 100 health over him, being hard to headshot, and having the CC/burst option on her is pretty substantial. Like if Zen gets out of position he has to win that situation then and there through pure murder. Ana can stall it out for peel way more effectively.
Having an extra 100 health over him, being hard to headshot, and having the CC/burst option on her is pretty substantial. Like if Zen gets out of position he has to win that situation then and there through pure murder. Ana can stall it out for peel way more effectively.
Yea sorry about Route 66 match it was a massacre. I totally screwed up and jumped down off the gas station..
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Murder is what he's good at though.
Yeah, I dunno, I think I agree with you that all things being equal ana is still way too good to pass up currently. I just hope we get to a balance sooner or later where ana and zen are interchangeable, despite me loving ana currently.
Yeah, I dunno, I think I agree with you that all things being equal ana is still way too good to pass up currently. I just hope we get to a balance sooner or later where ana and zen are interchangeable, despite me loving ana currently.
Terareflection
Member
Finally made it to platinum. Mostly soloq with Mercy as well. Feeling pretty good.
Just started playing this. I bought it for $30 on PC during Black Friday. I'm level 9. Been having alot of fun, but all I play is Reinhardt, because it's our best chance of winning the match and no one wants to play him. My solo queue seem to take an L every time I pick a different character. Question: Is there fun alternatives to Reinhardt. Also is the ranked Season 3 stuff going to unlock for me at level 25? Cheers.
My solo queue seem to take an L every time I pick a different character. Question: Is there fun alternatives to Reinhardt. Also is the ranked Season 3 stuff going to unlock for me at level 25? Cheers.Murder is what he's good at though.
Yeah, I dunno, I think I agree with you that all things being equal ana is still way too good to pass up currently. I just hope we get to a balance sooner or later where ana and zen are interchangeable, despite me loving ana currently.
Remember that interview I did with Chips?
This was published on September 21st.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Was that before or after people realised that ana was insane?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Hope you guys were telling the truth about placements not mattering. Currently 3-5.
every game is filled with masters/grandmasters, which is weird.
every game is filled with masters/grandmasters, which is weird.
One nerf I'd like to see to Ana is get rid of the ridiculously forgiving auto aim for her healing darts, pretty sure right now anywhere in the triangle is enough to register a hit.
I kinda of wish harmony orb was a little stronger so Zen stacked up better against her but that would probably make orbed targets too hard to kill. Maybe it could heal more but if the hero takes damage it stops healing for a second?
I kinda of wish harmony orb was a little stronger so Zen stacked up better against her but that would probably make orbed targets too hard to kill. Maybe it could heal more but if the hero takes damage it stops healing for a second?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
We need less healing in the game, not more.
Even with all that said she was hardly picked as much before the buffs came.
She's the only healer that can miss, it should be more forgiving than normal. Having said that, it gets in the way pretty often and healing specific targets near each other or shooting past an ally can be tricky, so it wouldn't be exactly a "nerf". It's balanced that way, I guess.
At this point they're basically handing out masters for free. Last night there was a Pharah in masters who was just absolutely terrible. Check where she ended last season and she was at 2800, season high of 3000. Somehow she placed at 3700 this season. Ranking system is really broken imo.
That player could be a masters lvl player with other heros. You don't really know. Your point may not be entirely wrong but I would hold off on saying that someone doesn't belong there based off one hero.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I'm about to try competitive for the first time ever, solo queue too. Wish me luck
Psychoward
Banned
Junkrat is pretty bad against Zarya though.
Trail Guide
Member
I'm about to try competitive for the first time ever, solo queue too. Wish me luck
It's great. Like riding a bus. You get to meet all kinds of interesting people.
MarioHead3
Banned
Like a bus that's on fire and headed straight off a cliff.
Wyndstryker
Member
Well, sometimes there's a lake at the bottom, other times there may be a fire truck or two.
Many times...it's rock bottom
MarioHead3
Banned
Is it a lake of gasoline?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Ended at 5-5. Placed at 3299, seems fair.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Zarya nerf and Dva buffs definitely helps.
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