Support NeoGAF

[DivineRage002]

So does anyone know what the hell is blizzard doing with balance?

I mean, Lucio and Zarya have been completely broken for a while, "dumpstering" people, and they decide to slightly adjust Ana, and give Widow a retarded buff.

What the hell are they doing?

 

[MarioHead3]

I got Roadhog's skin

oh god why would you do that to him you monster

So does anyone know what the hell is blizzard doing with balance?

I mean, Lucio and Zarya have been completely broken for a while, "dumpstering" people, and they decide to slightly adjust Ana, and give Widow a retarded buff.

What the hell are they doing?

GODDAMMIT WHIPPY LOOK AT WHAT YOU'VE DONE

 

[Azoor]

So does anyone know what the hell is blizzard doing with balance?

I mean, Lucio and Zarya have been completely broken for a while, "dumpstering" people, and they decide to slightly adjust Ana, and give Widow a retarded buff.

What the hell are they doing?

How are they broken ?

 

[optimus8936]

So does anyone know what the hell is blizzard doing with balance?

I mean, Lucio and Zarya have been completely broken for a while, "dumpstering" people, and they decide to slightly adjust Ana, and give Widow a retarded buff.

What the hell are they doing?

The right things and not focusing on things that don't need it.

 

[Blues1990]

So does anyone know what the hell is blizzard doing with balance?

I mean, Lucio and Zarya have been completely broken for a while, "dumpstering" people, and they decide to slightly adjust Ana, and give Widow a retarded buff.

What the hell are they doing?

I don't see how Lucio or Zarya are broken. In addition to Reaper, Reinhardt, & most of the defense heroes, they are in a pretty good spot right now. (I would argue that Mei can be monstrous, but only if her tools are well utilized.)

The old Soldier: 76 was almost perfect, and it's a shame Jack was hit with the nerf stick a while back. He was average, with clear strengths and weaknesses & could fit many comp configurations, due to his versatility. When a player playing Soldier: 76 was doing well, you could say that it was because the player is using him very well.

 

[DivineRage002]

How are they broken ?

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-...ist-and-meta-report-overwatch-open-deep-dives

Lucio being used in 95%+ of matches means he is completely irreplaceable, and therefor completely overpowered.

Zarya is conditional, but a tank that has the possibility of putting out the biggest DPS in the game is ridiculous, her pick rate reflects that, a well timed shield and a whole team melts in seconds.

 

[optimus8936]

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-...ist-and-meta-report-overwatch-open-deep-dives

Lucio being used in 95%+ of matches means he is completely irreplaceable, and therefor completely overpowered.

Zarya is conditional, but a tank that has the possibility of putting out the biggest DPS in the game is ridiculous, her pick rate reflects that, a well timed shield and a whole team melts in seconds.

Lucio is the only character with speed boost, he's not used because he's OP, he's used because he's insanely useful. Any nerf at this point would render him useless.

Zarya only has the highest DPS if she has good shields. And if the other team just focuses on her, she can't do shit. She gets picked at high levels for the same reasons as Lucio.

Neither of them need a nerf. Blizz has even said they're ok with Zarya and I'm assuming they think the same with Lucio.

IMO, a hero is only OP based on pick rates if they have a 100% pick rate and neither of these heroes do.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-...ist-and-meta-report-overwatch-open-deep-dives

Lucio being used in 95%+ of matches means he is completely irreplaceable, and therefor completely overpowered.

Zarya is conditional, but a tank that has the possibility of putting out the biggest DPS in the game is ridiculous, her pick rate reflects that, a well timed shield and a whole team melts in seconds.

Lol, Lucio isn't OP.

So tiresome when people who have no idea how statistics work see statistics and draw irrational conclusions.

 

[pelicansurf]

Lucio is the only character with speed boost, he's not used because he's OP, he's used because he's insanely useful. Any nerf at this point would render him useless.

Zarya only has the highest DPS if she has good shields. And if the other team just focuses on her, she can't do shit. She gets picked at high levels for the same reasons as Lucio.

Neither of them need a nerf. Blizz has even said they're ok with Zarya and I'm assuming they think the same with Lucio.

IMO, a hero is only OP based on pick rates if they have a 100% pick rate and neither of these heroes do.

I'm fine with both, but let's not pretend Lucio's 95+% pick rate isn't functionally 100%. He's in every competitive and pro game.

 

[DivineRage002]

When a hero is so "useful" that you cannot possibly go without him, he is, as a fact, overpowered.

I'm not saying to nerf him into oblivion, I'm just saying tune him down a tiny bit, so that instead of close to 100% pick rate, teams will have to consider "eh, maybe we could use that other hero more instead of Lucio". Right now Lucio should pretty much be put on autopick for every team, he is absolutely mandatory.

 

[optimus8936]

When a hero is so "useful" that you cannot possibly go without him, he is, as a fact, overpowered.

I'm not saying to nerf him into oblivion, I'm just saying tune him down a tiny bit, so that instead of close to 100% pick rate, teams will have to consider "eh, maybe we could use that other hero more instead of Lucio". Right now Lucio should pretty much be put on autopick for every team, he is absolutely mandatory.

Clearly 5% of teams seem to live without him.

As long as Lucio has speed boost really, he will always have a high pick rate.

But he's not OP. I really wish people would quit basing everything on pick rates from pro games because it never says the whole story.

 

[Azoor]

Lol, Lucio isn't OP.

So tiresome when people who have no idea how statistics work see statistics and draw irrational conclusions.

MYou sentiments exactly, correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Nuno Pinto]

Taken from the recent meta report:

S Tier: “The Possibly Overwpowered Heroes”

What’s this? No overpowered heroes in the East? The lack of S Tier heroes in this week’s report reveals that Asian teams do not find Lucio quite so as essential as he’s perceived in the west. In fact, a chunk of Lucio’s usage instead went to Asian teams tended to run Zenyatta + Ana support compositions on defense – opting for the pick-off potential and Zenyatta’s superior Transcendence ultimate to bolster their setup. This willingness to play the lower mobility Zenyatta on defense may also explain the relative increase in non-completed maps in APAC and Apex. The East seems to have a leg up on defensive strategies.

 

[Blues1990]

Clearly 5% of teams seem to live without him.

As long as Lucio has speed boost really, he will always have a high pick rate.

But he's not OP. I really wish people would quit basing everything on pick rates from pro games because it never says the whole story.

I agree with this. Lucio may have a high level of survivability, but that is neutered when any of the heroes that can neutralize mobility can make him into a smear on the wall. Roadhog in particular is the bane of my existence, and Mei can do just as much harm if I'm not careful.

 

[optimus8936]

Taken from the recent meta report:

We did Zen+Ana before it was cool

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Remember symmetra

She was fun

 

[Nuno Pinto]

We did Zen+Ana before it was cool

Yeah, we had some great games playing both

 

[DivineRage002]

This is starting to sound like League of Legends with "Flash".

Oh it's absolutely mandatory on every hero all the time, but it's not overpowered, it's just really really really useful, so useful you can't go without it.

And that's a 95%+ pick rate. It's just about 100% in reality.

To further my point about blizzard having no idea what they are doing, just about half the hero pool is completely ignored in competitive, and the ONLY one to get a slight buff was Widowmaker. What's up with that?

 

[optimus8936]

Remember symmetra

She was fun

Did you misspell Sombra? Cause I don't know who you're talking about.

 

[Blues1990]

Remember symmetra

She was fun

She was. Shame that she lost her perfect symmetry.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Did you misspell Sombra? Cause I don't know who you're talking about.

;_;

She was. Shame that she lost her perfect symmetry.

#justiceforsymmetra

 

[MUnited83]

Taken from the recent meta report:

Ana+Zen has been a killer combo for me in ranked. They dish out pretty good DPS, their healing is pretty good, both of their ults are amazing for pushes.

 

[optimus8936]

This is starting to sound like League of Legends with "Flash".

Oh it's absolutely mandatory on every hero all the time, but it's not overpowered, it's just really really really useful, so useful you can't go without it.

And that's a 95%+ pick rate. It's just about 100% in reality.

To further my point about blizzard having no idea what they are doing, just about half the hero pool is completely ignored in competitive, and the ONLY one to get a slight buff was Widowmaker. What's up with that?

Except this isn't LoL, so you really can't compare the two. Two completely different games.

Maybe only Widow got a buff because balancing isn't the cakewalk you seem to think it is?

And about half of the heroes that don't get played don't get played because theyre just easy to counter and work around in pro games. Bastion, Torb, Symm, and Junk are easy to counter with a coordinated team, Pharah and Mercy work best together and they both get countered by good aim, which pros tend to have a lot of. This is why you can't go off of charts because they don't tell you the whole story.

Hell, Asia doesn't think Lucio is mandatory.

 

[Copenap]

MYou sentiments exactly, correlation does not imply causation.

I would agree if we were talking about the global population where other factors like fun to play or the design of the hero play a huge role, however, when talking about high level play only it is not too farfetched to assume that a high pick rate is caused by the players assessing him as powerful (I would say powerful = useful) because that should be the only metric that matters.

The question is imo if it is really an issue to have a core group of heroes that make up most combs.

Edit: Not every hero needs to be playable at all levels imo.

 

[optimus8936]

You guys need to realize that if Lucio got nerfed again.

He would suck, hard. He only gets picked in pro play because of his speed boost and he's the only character that provides that. Nerfing his healing or whatever won't change his pro play, but absolutely destroy him everywhere else. He doesn't need a nerf.

 

[nbraun80]

You guys need to realize that if Lucio got nerfed again.

He would suck, hard. He only gets picked in pro play because of his speed boost and he's the only character that provides that. Nerfing his healing or whatever won't change his pro play, but absolutely destroy him everywhere else. He doesn't need a nerf.

and its not like there's a deep support pool to pick from, there's only 4, with ana lucio being top and mercy zen, being less common but certainly still picked a decent amount.

 

[DivineRage002]

You guys need to realize that if Lucio got nerfed again.

He would suck, hard. He only gets picked in pro play because of his speed boost and he's the only character that provides that. Nerfing his healing or whatever won't change his pro play, but absolutely destroy him everywhere else. He doesn't need a nerf.

Before: Speed boost gives +20% move speed (I'm making that up, I'm not sure what the real number is).

After: Speed boost gives +15% move speed.

Try that out in PTR and adjust as necessary.

Juuuust enough to make the teams think a bit if the speed boost is needed.

 

[optimus8936]

Before: Speed boost gives +20% move speed (I'm making that up, I'm not sure what the real number is).

After: Speed boost gives +15% move speed.

Try that out in PTR and adjust as necessary.

Juuuust enough to make the teams think a bit if the speed boost is needed.

Are you saying they don't use him just for speed boost?

Because they do. I remember before the nerf, they were saying Lucio would still be picked a ton in pro games if he only had speed boost and no healing.

So yes, speed boost is that big of a thing.

And what does that have to do with PTR? His nerf is already live...

 

[LiK]

Playing with gaffers who run good Ana based comps is a blast (for me at least, and hopefully for them when they get boosted). It's not exact Beyblade but it's similar.

LRG: Reaper/Reinhardt
Cooldude: Reinhardt/Pharah
Letdown: Reaper
Fatal: Roadhog
Buttchin: Genji/Lucio

Are all a blast to boost. Me and Fatal had an amazing game today, we had our ults every 20 seconds or so. Me and LRG have had some good success duoing an Ana and Reinhardt in comp.

Hm, no Lik: Junk/D.va/Soldier...

AND WE STILL LOST THAT MATCH

/salt

...the result!

 

[darklin0]

You guys need to realize that if Lucio got nerfed again.

He would suck, hard. He only gets picked in pro play because of his speed boost and he's the only character that provides that. Nerfing his healing or whatever won't change his pro play, but absolutely destroy him everywhere else. He doesn't need a nerf.

Agreed. Lucio will the the next Symmetra if he gets nerfed again.

 

[Astral/H3X]

Did Genji's movement speed change with the update? He felt a bit faster to me last night.

Either that or Borderless Windowed is a horrible, shitty idea and no one should ever use it.

 

[Interfectum]

This is starting to sound like League of Legends with "Flash".

Oh it's absolutely mandatory on every hero all the time, but it's not overpowered, it's just really really really useful, so useful you can't go without it.

And that's a 95%+ pick rate. It's just about 100% in reality.

To further my point about blizzard having no idea what they are doing, just about half the hero pool is completely ignored in competitive, and the ONLY one to get a slight buff was Widowmaker. What's up with that?

Still doesn't mean he's overpowered.

And it's hard to take you seriously when your go to insult is "blizzard doesn't know what they are doing" because they aren't balancing around your ideas.

 

[DivineRage002]

Still doesn't mean he's overpowered.

And it's hard to take you seriously when your go to insult is "blizzard doesn't know what they are doing" because they aren't balancing around your ideas.

That's the problem, they aren't balancing at all.

Only two heroes got any kind of balance update, while half the roaster is completely ignored.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Before: Speed boost gives +20% move speed (I'm making that up, I'm not sure what the real number is).

After: Speed boost gives +15% move speed.

Try that out in PTR and adjust as necessary.

Juuuust enough to make the teams think a bit if the speed boost is needed.

Seriously, dude.

They've already done this.

Also, have you even seen high level play? Do you know the strategies they use and do you understand why Lucio is preferred in western pro teams?

Only two heroes got any kind of balance update, while half the roaster is completely ignored.

Okay, I'm out. There's no way this guy is serious.

 

[Azoor]

I would agree if we were talking about the global population where other factors like fun to play or the design of the hero play a huge role, however, when talking about high level play only it is not too farfetched to assume that a high pick rate is caused by the players assessing him as powerful (I would say powerful = useful) because that should be the only metric that matters.

The question is imo if it is really an issue to have a core group of heroes that make up most combs.

Edit: Not every hero needs to be playable at all levels imo.

I agree, but he was using statistics alone without anything else.

 

[BumperLips]

I think Lucio would be balanced if they either:

- Introduce more supports with movement enhancing capabilities.

- Introduce more characters with immobilizations

- Introduce a character that can purge enemy members (Imagine being able to remove Nanoboost, DoT healing/speed, Harmony, Sound Barrier, Mercy Dmg Boost)

The last one doesn't sound too bad because you can already eat ults with certain characters (Dva, Genji). Would be cool if Sombra actually has this ability.

 

[Incendiary]

This is starting to sound like League of Legends with "Flash".

Oh it's absolutely mandatory on every hero all the time, but it's not overpowered, it's just really really really useful, so useful you can't go without it.

And that's a 95%+ pick rate. It's just about 100% in reality.

To further my point about blizzard having no idea what they are doing, just about half the hero pool is completely ignored in competitive, and the ONLY one to get a slight buff was Widowmaker. What's up with that?

I don't think Blizzard should buff/nerf based on the pro meta. Mostly because the pro games are completely different than 90% of games played by regular people. They're always organized 6 v 6 with teams who have coordinated strategies, where they get to pick the maps they play on, where most fights are always 6 v 6 team battles, where large chunks of the map aren't used, where flanking is almost never used the same way it's used in normal games. No matter how they alter things, there's always going to be a smaller pool of heroes that are considered "best."

Take 76 vs McCree. At pro level, there's no reason to play as 76. However for people with shitty aim at lower levels, 76 could be a more valid choice. It doesn't mean one or the other needs to be changed, simply because not everyone who plays Overwatch is going to be the same skill level. But people who clamor for 76 to get a buff so he's more viable at pro level don't realize that would basically mean McCree would never be picked at pro then, if the buff was significant enough for 76 to be chosen instead.

Lucio is a must pick in the pro meta because his speed boost is a unique ability that can change the tide of battle. That doesn't mean he's OP, it just means there are no other options if a pro team wants to implement speed boosts into their strategy. If another character gets a speed ability, or a way to counter Lucio's speed, then he probably wouldn't be used as much.

 

[Skii]

Playing Ana with newbies in solo queue is one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. I nanoboosted a Reinhardt twice only for him to turtle up during the entire boost. And a Reaper killed me and managed to cap the first point by himself because the rest of the team was too worried about the chokepoint. He literally stood there for the entire duration of the capture and no one challenged him.

I was forced to carry my team for the entire second point hold by nanoboosting ults only. It was such a pain.

This is hell. No one knows what's going on at these ranks. Absolutely no awareness at all. I managed to get 15 death blossom kills because I kept teleporting to the same place and dropping down and no one ever looked back for the 5 times I did it lol.

 

[TheLetdown]

Let's get a group going. I'll be on in the next hour or so.

Ugh, didn't see this last night. I ended up bitching on here, throwing together some food, and then zoning out with some mediocre television.

If anything needs a balance update, it's primetime television in 2016. Blizzard would fix that if they actually knew what they were doing.

 

[Incendiary]

Ugh, didn't see this last night. I ended up bitching on here, throwing together some food, and then zoning out with some mediocre television.

If anything needs a balance update, it's primetime television in 2016. Blizzard would fix that if they actually knew what they were doing.

I've been saying CBS needs a nerf for a long time - wtf Blizzard why aren't you listening?

 

[PatjuhR]

One time an Ana boosted me when there we not enemies around. I run around like a fool trying to find them, but didn't spot on the entire time. Got a sarcastic "thanks" afterwards

Another time I was nano boosted and I remember myself thinking; why are we doing this? And ended up killing 4 enemies.

 

[Fancolors]

That's the problem, they aren't balancing at all.

Only two heroes got any kind of balance update, while half the roaster is completely ignored.

Balance is a lot harder than it sounds.

In a lot of cases, making a hero stronger also means indirectly making another one weaker. Making changes to half of the cast when the game is barely one year old sounds like a bad idea and would often result on undesirable outcomes IMO. To make changes that affect high and low level play is a massive undertaking.

 

[Gothos]

This is starting to sound like League of Legends with "Flash".

Oh it's absolutely mandatory on every hero all the time, but it's not overpowered, it's just really really really useful, so useful you can't go without it.

And that's a 95%+ pick rate. It's just about 100% in reality.

To further my point about blizzard having no idea what they are doing, just about half the hero pool is completely ignored in competitive, and the ONLY one to get a slight buff was Widowmaker. What's up with that?

Blizz makes awesome games but is terrible at balancing them

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

Lucio is most certainly not OP. He picked so frequently not because he's significantly better than other healers, but because he's easier to use.

Common perception is that healers are the most "required" character class on a team. But there are a lot of people who don't like playing them, which means there are times when somebody on a team plays a healer because they feel they have to. When that happens, Lucio is a safe pick as they don't need to have invested much time into learning him to do a good job.

A low skill floor does not make a character overpowered. It makes them more accessible.

 

[TrueBlue]

Are the halloween boxes up on EU PSN yet?

 

[PatjuhR]

Blizz makes awesome games but is terrible at balancing them

It's almost impossible to perfectly balance 22 heroes. Nerfing one, makes the other stronger, then you nerf that one, and another one rises. And so on.

 

[NeoRaider]

Blizz makes awesome games but is terrible at balancing them

 

[Nuno Pinto]

Ana inclusion was so awesome to this game, with her nano-boost and healing/debuff potential we saw:

- Zenyatta dropped significantly, who has probably the best defensive ult in the game (only doesn't work with instant high damage ults)
- enter Mei because with her abilities and the blizzard size buff now she can be a great defensive tool against nano-boosted enemies, and a lot of other stuff
- Reaper was always used frequently, but now I think he is even more prominent since he can pretty much destroy a whole team with a nano-boosted death blossom
- with Mei/Reaper we saw less McCree and with that we finally start seeing a bit more Pharah again :')

Spoiler

not enough though

- 3 tanks / 3 supports composition

Hope Sombra can have the same impact.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Clearly 5% of teams seem to live without him.

As long as Lucio has speed boost really, he will always have a high pick rate.

But he's not OP. I really wish people would quit basing everything on pick rates from pro games because it never says the whole story.

That's true. He isn't overpowered... But he is overplayed. Making people who enjoy playing support forced to git gud at Lucio or play another class. Some companies work with two supports but not always.

I think people want to see more diversity in the actual comps.

I think Zarya is a little over powered but everyone else seems to be balanced.

 

[LiK]

PVP class-based games in general will forever be tweaked. Overwatch isn't alone in this.