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Overwatch |OT6| Boop
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divisionbyzorro
Member
Unless you're in Diamond or Master, pick rates in pro Overwatch have shit-all to do with how the game is played.
DevilDog
Member
You like getting 1 shotted by a nano boosted genji? Or standing no chance against a nano boosted reinheardt unless there is a mei/sleep dart?
Incendiary
Banned
I complain more about getting one-shotted by Hanzo's scatter arrow than a nano-boosted player. Especially since that involves two very loud vocal cues and gives me time to dodge and react, while the other happens before I can blink.
DivineRage002
Member
Dota 2 is at over 110 heroes, and during the group stage for the international 6, the highest pick/ban rate of a single hero was 83%, and only a handful were completely ignored.
22 heroes is child's play comparatively, and having half of those ignored is laughable balancing.
Don't get me wrong, I freaking LOVE playing Overwatch, but the balancing job Blizzard is doing is pathetic.
DevilDog
Member
It's just as bad but at least hanzo isn't viable right now.
Incendiary
Banned
Dota 2 is also a completely different type of game. There's a lot more you can do ability wise in a MOBA vs an FPS. Just look at how Paladins is getting ripped for copying Overwatch because a lot of their characters have similar abilities. And how Overwatch gets ripped for copying TF2, etc.
Tell that to all the Hanzos I see in comp and QP.
DevilDog
Member
I rarely ever see any, and if I do we usually win. Are you on PS4?
You realize this is an FPS right? It has 10x times the depth of a point and click 2D game.
Again with only 22 you should expect this game to have higher picks rates, especially like I said when there are only 4 supports. It would be one thing mercy and zen aren't plcked at all but they still see decent play. I've seen 16 of the 22 used in some form watching korean league last night and pretty much all of the ones not used were in defensive categories excluding Mei.
And as others have said, if you're under masters you can do well on most heroes if you're good with them. They shouldn't and probably won't balance around pro meta.
Overwatch is not a moba and balancing it as such is a bad, bad idea. The crowds who play these games and the mechanical skills required are far too different. Not to mention Dota having over a decade of existence of fine tuning.
Also, I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced. It's far from it, but a hero's pick rate is not a good indicator of balance.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Hanzo is kinda viable on certain maps, just not on defense.
Which is why you shouldn't complain about attack hanzo, but you might want to change somebody's mind about defensive hanzo.
Which is why you shouldn't complain about attack hanzo, but you might want to change somebody's mind about defensive hanzo.
Nuno Pinto
Member
No. But I could say the same about other things, it's all about ult counters, there's more ways to stop it besides those two.
Incendiary
Banned
Yup. I'm still fighting to climb out of Gold though, so that may have something to do with it. I usually have either a Hanzo or Bastion every game on the enemy team.
I'm not saying I agree with him, but how do you even argue this?
DivineRage002
Member
Honestly I would argue the opposite, but I know better than to argue about another game having more depth in a game's OT, so I'll just drop this here.
This is a very valid point.
Symmetra is crying somewhere.
I still think Blizzard needs to be more agressive with their balancing, you have a PTR for testing stuff before release, go crazy a bit, try stuff out.
optimus8936
Banned
Comparing a MOBA to an FPS
This is on the levels of the fighting games debate. Such a bad argument.
This is on the levels of the fighting games debate. Such a bad argument.
Incendiary
Banned
The problem with going wild in PTR is if you change a lot, the data you get is hard to interpret. Much like scientific experiments where you have a control and then one variable is changed to test effects, when you change balance you have to only fine tune here and there to see its effects. If you nerf/buff half the cast at once, ultimately you're changing the entire game instead of balancing, and in all likelihood you're just going to have to change more things after because with all the changes some characters are going to end up OP.
Remember the balance update when Ana came out? They changed a whole bunch of characters, and immediately after had to reduce some of the buffs because the characters they changed started dominating all the matches.
Also Ana was out for a while before the Beyblade meta became a thing. Sometimes the meta changes without any buffs/nerfs because teams experiment and try new strategies.
Part of the problem, is that there are a bajillion things that they need to do for this game. For one, I'm still waiting for the option to upload highlight reels on YouTube (or a similar streaming website), along with switching emotes and voice lines on the fly in-game.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Which is preferrable for me, honestly.
Maybe when the game gets older, but I do like that it's easygoing starting out.
optimus8936
Banned
If they did aggressive balancing all the time, this game would be a mess. Buff one hero? Another hero becomes weaker. You have to take baby steps unless there is something that is blatantly OP, which there is nothing like that right now.
If we balanced 5+ heroes in every update, this game would become a disaster.
Plus it's easy to do baby steps because they balance stuff once a month.
If we balanced 5+ heroes in every update, this game would become a disaster.
Plus it's easy to do baby steps because they balance stuff once a month.
Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
i think the Widow buff and new aiming is better for them. Seen more in QP who aren't useless.
I added you. I haven't done Comp lately for reasons but I placed low Gold.
I think that's debatable but it has more to do with the fact that Overwatch is a 1st person shooter with movement in all directions than just the Overwatch mechanics alone. Anytime you have a game that is completely three dimensional and characters with the ability to move and act in those directions then you have already increased the depth of that game versus any other non three dimensional game.
Ever wonder why Reaper dropping off a roof doing a Death Blossom continues to be so effective? It's because he's coming in from out of the line of sight, above the opposing team. You don't get stuff like that in a traditional MOBA.
DevilDog
Member
Most of the aspects of a top down point and click game are embedded into 3D shooters by default. This is without including the genre specific stuff like special abilities etc.
I don't know who you're kidding here, but implying that I'm fanboying about this and that I'm not reasonable enough to have a discussion with, only shows that you're insecure about your own views. All that while cheekily exiting the discussion.
Who said this?
optimus8936
Banned
This.
it looked like you were calling dota 2 a point and click game, if not why even bring up the "10x more depth than a point and click game" part?
Nah, she's great. I climbed fromn Plat to Diamond only using her.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Hanzo is very viable. He's a high-risk/high-reward character. I see him in both competitive games and in pro tournaments. Generally though McCree and even Soldier are better options right now.
D.va is amazing when she is an off tank. Not so much a main one
Incendiary
Banned
Nah. I can clean up with D.Va a lot of the time. Maybe at pro level she's the least viable but where I'm hanging out I can wreck with her. As stated last night, I went 40-2 on comp KOTH with her even when the enemy team had a Zarya + second tank combo. It's all about who you're comfortable playing as and team composition.
My play is currently hit or miss with D.Va. Any advice on how to dive? About 75% of the time I dive in, kill the character I was aiming for and then escape, but the other 25% I dive in and die immediately.
Not really sure what's happening. I guess the 25% failure is when the opposing team is ready for me and expecting me. If that happens, is there another useful role other than just DMing any incoming damage to the supports on my team and bullying any flankers who harass supports?
Yea, diving is hit or miss with her. I try to be a distraction like Tracer and just fuck with the other team and make them leave the choke points. It usually works. I try to get in some shots and protect myself with DM and boost away. Even if they manage to destroy the mech, I would just try to get as many shots off to try and take out a dude.
Sometimes you need to rely on your team to push when you dive and hope they get there to help out. If they stall, it's usually death. A Harmony Orb from Zen is also a must.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Zarya free games are the best games because DVa gets to shine <3
Just had a match on Kings Row attack where defense had two Hanzos and a Soldier. Flying up to them with defense matrix then shooting them in the face was so good.
Just had a match on Kings Row attack where defense had two Hanzos and a Soldier. Flying up to them with defense matrix then shooting them in the face was so good.
Can you just tell me if you think balancing is easier in an fps or dota?
Sir Griffith
Member
Set a new record with Transcendence in comp last night, healed 2892 with 1 ult. We all got Zarya/Genji/Hanzo ulted at same time. Ended up winning the game and I got potg. Feelsgoodman 
Dva is a weird one. I have no idea what to do with her because she has no ranged damage and is a sitting duck when shooting but I've had loads of good Dvas on my team or some Dvas that outplay me when I'm Reaper. But there's no real time to learn her when you can learn a proper tank like Reinhardt or Zarya who are almost mandatory for most games in competitive.
It's something they plan to implement. It's just not a high priority right now.
DivineRage002
Member
Ok.
Straight from the draft, the fact that you can ban heroes mid-draft in Dota to essentially cripple the lineup of the other team adds a layer of depth that is simply not there in Overwatch, where you can simply pick whatever you want whenever you want it.
The heroes are not as strictly defined as they are in Overwatch, if the other team picks a Naga Siren, it could be either a support or a carry, and you'll have to watch the rest of the draft until you can tell for sure what it is. In Overwatch a Reaper is a Reaper and does close range damage and a Mercy is a support.
Then Dota adds the "timing" layer to the depth, in which some heroes are far more powerful at different times during the game, some are absolutely deadly right off the bat, such a Undying, and fall off at the later stages, while others start off weak and become a wrecking ball in the late game, such as Specter. Others will scale well throughout the game. In Overwatch Reaper stays Reaper.
In Overwatch the map is linear, an objective is given and everyone heads for it. Everyone. If a team has to push the payload, they can't go do something else to try to catch the other team off guard. You push the payload, and the other team defends it. The payload travels in a straight line and you know exactly where it will be, same for capture points. In Dota, your team just won a fight and killed two guys but oh shit Beastmaster just took our tower and is now in the base wrecking us from behind and oh shit Anti-mage just took Roshan and is now going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.
Anti-mage has a built-in magic resistance, which makes it complicated to deal with him with magic damage. You can stun him and kill him with physical attacks pretty easily though. Oh wait he's got a BKB and now you can't stun him, maybe Bane who has an ability that goes through magic immunity could keep him in place for you long enough to kill him, or Lina could just burst him through the magic immunity and not care about magic resist due to her pure damage. But wait! He has a manta-style and now has two illusions of him hitting people and burning their mana, you're going to need some AoE to tell which one is the real one. Anti-mage has a butterfly? Better save up for an MKB otherwise your attacks are going to miss a lot! I'm not even going to go into invisibility or map vision, day and night vision changes, runes and bottle crowing, creep stacking and pulling and so on.
Because Hanzo can climb a wall doesn't give Overwatch any kind of "depth". It is a very simple FPS, and it's great that way.
D.Va is easily the worst tank, she is good though but she could be a lot better. It doesn't help that one of the highest DPS characters (and most used) can go right through her Defense Matrix from a pretty decent range. Her boost is slow and makes her very vulnerable to damage in comparison to a character like Winston. D.Va has terrible damage and no other means to compensate (Winston and Reinhardt can hit multiple targets, Roadhog can insta-kill with hook combo).
D.Va isn't used much right now because she is kinda like a mix between Pharah and Soldier. She is too easily counter when used, but what does D.Va really provide that other tanks don't and potentially do better? D.Va is pretty much only used to stall in the West scene, some teams use her on Numbani attack and the Eastern teams seem to use her a lot more.
D.Va isn't used much right now because she is kinda like a mix between Pharah and Soldier. She is too easily counter when used, but what does D.Va really provide that other tanks don't and potentially do better? D.Va is pretty much only used to stall in the West scene, some teams use her on Numbani attack and the Eastern teams seem to use her a lot more.
Even if she does minute damage from a distance, it still causes the enemy players to kinda not wanna be in the crossfire from my experience. I usually use it to zone them and it works against teams who aren't coordinated.
Yea, I only go for kills if there's a chance to finish off someone or my team is with me. But other than that, I just annoy the shit outta them. I also use the DM any chance I get. So damn good.
I'm all for the tank heroes being varied, so long as they excel at the goal of protecting allies and disrupting enemies. Reinhardt is the more traditional tank, Roadhog is a flanker, Winston disrupts & scatters, & Zarya is a complementary powerhouse that can cleave through enemy teams with ease.
D.Va is a weird duck, as she's in this middle-ground where she shifts between as a backup DPS and defensive tank. She can act as a solid ganker, but the problem is D.Va can't secure kills or protect the team as well as the other tank heroes. She also doesn't do DPS or defense very well, and it doesn't help that her Defense Matrix has been neutered (again), as that shield was an important part of her tool kit. I'm unsure with how this character can be properly buffed without throwing things out of whack, but I definitely want D.Va to be viable again.
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