What would an appropriate page and view count be?
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Pakistan clashes over Hebdo cartoon
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What would an appropriate page and view count be?
It's a country that gives the death penalty for people that do the very thing they claim to be protesting about. Are you suggesting they aren't representative?
According to US law, you'd be correct. Political, artistic, literary, or scientific speech is always protected, but Brandenburg vs. Ohio established that speech which incites violence is not protected.
Are you like actually retarded?
Red Blaster
Member
i know man
its sad that dubya isn't in power anymore. he would indefinitely detain these wackos in guantanamo and torture them which would make us safer in america.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
I didn't wanna quote you (just reading the thread) but this is such a nasty post smh.
Stereogatari
Banned
News media focuses on crazies more than normals. There are millions of good looking smartly dressed Western-looking civilised Pakistanis who aren't going to get screen time and exposure on Western news media, but the cavemen will and lead people towards pidgeonholing and shoe-horning a country of 220 million people, loads of sects, loads of ethnicities int one image of scruffy brown skinned men that look like hobos to a Western eye.
The country is fucked. Plenty of the people aren't. We need more screen time for those people and not just screen time for madmen.
Nobody in this thread is saying either of those things. Why are you mocking people who don't exist?
ZeroGravity
Member
Bill Maher was right.
Stereogatari
Banned
Why was he right. Have we seen every single human that is a Muslim represented through this news article? Is there some fourth dimensional method to consume this article that I'm unaware of that helps you gauge the opinion of every single Muslim in the world? Every Turk, every Albanian Muslim, every Bosniak, every Arab, every Berber, every Nigerian Muslim, every Ivorian Muslim, every Somalian, every Pakistani, Indian Muslim, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan Muslim, Afghanistani, Persian/Tajik, Central Asian Turkic people, Russian citizen Muslims, Western born Muslims, Western converts, South-East Asian Muslims, Hui Chinese Muslims and any that I've forgot.
Oh no. It's just about Pakistan, a highly populous and diverse country and it's a subset of that highly populous and diverse country.
I'm not saying whether hundreds of millions of Muslims agree with the killings or not, I'm just saying that throwing something like that out there without solidified proof (and sorry but these PEW results and related stuff are too small sample sizes to work properly) is ignorant. It's the Western equivalent of the blind hate that many Muslims have towards America and Israel, it's gross.
I suspect people like Maher and Sam Harris are still letting their ethnicity cloud their view despite their atheism and removal from religious zealotry.
While there is a chance of that, in a country like Pakistan the chance of that being a fake skyrockets.
lazer_bean
Member
If god is almighty then who do these people think they are defending it, avenging it or doing other things in its name ?
If god is almighty why would it need anyone's help for anything ?
I don't get it
If god is almighty why would it need anyone's help for anything ?
I don't get it
Naked Snake
Member
I don't think Maher ever said that all Muslims think like that. He said he believes that a large/significant portion of them do (and I personally agree). This article neither proves or refutes that, but if anything it adds more evidence towards it being true.
Stereogatari
Banned
IIRC he said hundreds of millions or something along those lines, but my point about "have we seen every single Muslim's opinion" was regarding a hypothetical poll, which would be the way to prove or disprove Maher's statement.
The mentality of these people is that they are slaves to God/Mohamad and their life's duty is to serve them like dogs.
Naked Snake
Member
Which I'd suspect isn't absurd at all, if you do the math/demographics on the total world population of Muslims, and watch the news.
Stereogatari
Banned
With the PEW results and what not? Absolutely, but I still personal find their sample sizes too small and without a good enough spread across demographics and geographies of the countries they polled.
Naked Snake
Member
I don't know what results you're talking about, haven't seen them. I'm projecting from my own reality (being from a Muslim family myself and living in the Middle East), and what I know about the world. Not claiming that my experience, knowledge and intuition are enough to make an accurate judgement, but they're additional points on the growing and not-so-pretty data pool. And that's why I agree with Bill Maher.
Why don't you tell us all what you're really thinking...
SolidusDave
Member
What about the countries that would execute the french satirists on their soil? (which cover half a billion Muslims). Is that not proof for this opinion being widespread?
Are only the extremists in power in those countries and the majority of the people is not for implementation of the Sharia laws? I find that hard to believe, especially as they receive the same indoctrination from birth on.
(btw I don't know care about this Mayer guy)
Stereogatari
Banned
Turkish background myself, thought not living there. We're probably both skewing the way we see things towards what we see among our people. There certainly are many Turks who didn't mind the killings, but I've seen enough opinions from the civilised side as well, which makes it difficult for me to say whether the country as a whole is one way or the other on the issue.
Perhaps in your case there is no grey area and it's definitely the majority of people that are ok with it?
Naked Snake has made me think I might be biased in favour of my culture when it comes to viewing the Muslim world as a whole. I used to be quite against that mentality because I thought I was being racist towards other Muslims, but perhaps I was right to judge the general Muslim world more harshly than Turkey.
Naked Snake
Member
Of course the whole country isn't one way or another! Almost nothing in the world ever is. Nobody ever said or suggested that an entire country, region, or all Muslims believe one thing or another. Yet you keep bringing it up as if someone is saying that.
I don't know whether the majority of my country (which is like ~95% Muslim) condone the killings or not. I know for certain it's not 100% or perhaps even 50%, but from what I've seen and heard from my own family and my Facebook network, I can tell you there is enough to make it truly disturbing.
Edit: To be fair, I haven't actually heard many people explicitly say that they are ok with the murders (although some did, and I can sense it in others' tone), but what also irked me is that there was a lot of people (mainly Palestinians) who were complaining that the world has made a big deal of it while forgetting all the Muslims/Arabs dying from wars. They were even criticizing me for being so upset about it and for saying that #IamCharlie
Most of my best friends are of Palestinian origin, and I love them dearly, but I wish they didn't always try to make everything about them and expect all their allies to put their own cause above all else.
speculawyer
Member
You are in complete denial if you think this viewpoint is limited to 200 people.
The polling, protests in other places, killing in other places, etc. Wake up and smell the Jihad.
It is certainly a minority view among most Muslims. But it is a VERY LARGE minority.
Saudi Arabia has a blogger imprisoned for 10 years and who just got his first 50 lashes out of the 1000 lashes assigned to him as punishment for creating a blog that criticized some conservative clerics.
speculawyer
Member
Religion is often about turning off rational thinking and just believing.
The word 'Islam' is derived from the Arabic root "Salema" meaning submission and obedience.
Stereogatari
Banned
I think I can see what you're saying. In the West racism for example is taboo or people saying "glass them" whenever a story about Islamist terrorism or fundamentalism comes up is taboo in general society, but in the East the kind of opinions that we're seeing about the cartoons are much more readily acceptable.
The people saying it's only 200 people aren't saying one or way another what the true number of opinions, but are annoyed that a small scale protest is being photographed and reported on in a manner which makes it look like something bigger than it is.
Whom_Gods_Annoy
Banned
Because having a discussion on something so important and topical is stupid.
Naked Snake
Member
I added an Edit to my previous post to clarify a bit. Hope you read it.
Stereogatari
Banned
Just read it. Yes that is exactly the kind of attitude I've seen a few Turkish comments express, except they were bringing up the Uyghur Turkic minority in China. I can KIND OF see where they're coming from, but they're saying it all wrong and blindly committing that logical fallacy...false equivalency I think it is?
I think the protesters who are asking for hangings are out of line and disgusting. If they do not agree with the makers of that cartoon they should display that in a more civil manner. I do not mind the protests themselves at all as long as they do them peacefully.
I personally think the attacks in France are vile and inhumane. I also don't support the cartoons published. I'm not a Muslim either. While I value freedom of speech I also think a certain degree of respect towards other religions would go a long way in making this world a better place. I find it extremely disappointing the way some posters in this thread have been posting. Some posts reeks of racism and generalizations based on ignorance. I genuinely feel bad for fellow gaffers who are Muslims or from Pakistan that had nothing to do with these out of line handful of protesters. This can't be pleasant for them.
I personally think the attacks in France are vile and inhumane. I also don't support the cartoons published. I'm not a Muslim either. While I value freedom of speech I also think a certain degree of respect towards other religions would go a long way in making this world a better place. I find it extremely disappointing the way some posters in this thread have been posting. Some posts reeks of racism and generalizations based on ignorance. I genuinely feel bad for fellow gaffers who are Muslims or from Pakistan that had nothing to do with these out of line handful of protesters. This can't be pleasant for them.
Naked Snake
Member
I'm not an expert on fallacies, nor am I a great debater.
My stand is this: Free speech is not less important than any other issue, including kids dying in Syria or Gaza. I think it all comes full circle. And one is capable of caring about different issues equally. I am for the advancement of the human race as a whole, and I am strongly against letting religions dictate how the world is run. My beef isn't just with Muslims, the Pope's remarks on the issue pissed me off too.
Speaking of which: The Way of the Mister: Fuck The Pope! (Youtube)
Maninthemirror
Banned
I think he means even the peshawar attack of 131 children who died didn't get this far in terms of attention from most people in west
I would say even worse is the attention given to boko haram killing 2000 people but that's another topic
RustyNails
Member
I absolutely love it when people with no freaking clue start talking about stuff like they're experts.
Stereogatari
Banned
What he just said is correct with regards to the etymology of Islam.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Yes islam means accepting there is one God which then obviously means who you worship is not men or idols but one God, that itself is religion like Judaism, so when God says don't murder it means if you murder you go to Hell literally
speculawyer
Member
I love it when people don't even attempt to dispute an argument and go straight to ad hominem
RustyNails
Member
It's correct meaning is peace in submission to God. I don't even know what 'salema' is.
It's etymology is derived from the tri-consonant root S-L-M, which is used to convey peace, wholesomeness, safety and also submission.
RustyNails
Member
Wait, you were arguing?
You weren't arguing a point you presented incorrect information.
cripterion
Member
Funnily enough, that's what all religions are based on.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I love how people ask Charlie Hebdo to use free speech in a responsible manner while they officially brand themselves 'Irresponsible newspaper' - It's written right under the title!
RustyNails
Member
What do you make of Charlie Hebdo's founder saying the slain editor (Charb) dragged the team members to their deaths?
Charlie Hebdo founder: Slain editor 'dragged' team to their deaths
speculawyer
Member
Well here was my post.
I don't think it was too complex but let me simplify it things and provide an example.
In the modern world, religion requires you to believe in a lot of things for which there is no evidence for. A omnipotent god, flying horses, people surviving crucifixion, witches, Djinn, etc. That you take these things on faith.
To do this, you have to let go of rational thinking . . . let go of requiring evidence . . . let go of requiring logic . . . just submit yourself to the narrative and believe. Become obedient and follow what your priest, holy book, imam, Rabbi, etc. says.
Man was created from a clot of blood. You have to believe that because it comes from the messenger as the perfect word of god. Clot of blood? What? What about evolution? OK, forget evolution. Where did the clot of blood come from? Another god? Did animals evolve, create blood, and then god took that blood and create man?
STOP ASKING THESE QUESTIONS! JUST SHUT UP AND SUBMIT TO PERFECT WORD OF GOD. Don't question god! Don't mock god! Don't mock the prophet! BE OBEDIENT! Don't draw cartoons of the prophet! Boko Haram!
Here's a question. If god is so powerful and so merciful . . . what does god allow so many of these atrocities to be performed in her name? Is she not powerful enough to stop them? Does she not mind having these people commit atrocities in her name? How do you guys reconcile this? Christians handwave this with 'free will' and what not. But I thought nothing occurs without Allah willing it. Or does Islam just use the 'free will' rationalization as well?
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
One of the founding members.
Fucking lol, I spat a bit.
Ahh, the soft bigotry of low expectations.
Why are some people more open to the idea of mocking religion and making generalizations when the group in focus is conservative American Christians (preferably white), but then feel as if they need to tip-toe around the issue when it's Muslims? Criticizing Islam and Muslims in a country where Muslims are not a marginalized group does not make you a bigot if the criticism is warranted and you are not making unfair generalizations about *all* Muslims, y'know? It just seems like an insincere attempt at tolerance, y'know?
I personally think it's fine to believe in something that has no scientific proof to back it, but clinging to those beliefs and staying in denial when they are disproven isn't a positive thing. While they often aren't, ideally people would have flexible spiritual beliefs (if they have any at all).
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Why?
Yeah, no Muslim ever tackles any questions. /s
No such things as Muslim Philosophers, intellectuals, scholars or the like.
Dude, what is wrong with you? Have you lost the ability to think clearly?
akachan ningen
Member
Do you understand stupid people? because that's what's going on over there.
Why isn't anyone fighting a war to lower the general level of stupidity over there?
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