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Pakistan clashes over Hebdo cartoon

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DOWN

Banned
As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks
I think you are proving their point. Why should anyone be threatened into not discussing violent punishments in The name of religion? Why should anyone die over a cartoon? That doesn't make the cartoonist at fault for the violence.

The whole point of Hebdo is to see these types of ridiculous practices and get to satire them as part of discussion. And they defiantly continue to do it because otherwise, the attackers and violence supporters get to just say you should die for a drawing because we said so, discussion over, whether you think you get to disagree or not.

The protestors are in the wrong state of mind, not the cartoonists.
 

Nibel

Member
0UBCn43.jpg


Well, of curs you do, nobody expected anything else.
 
As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks
Sometimes a fire just has to burn itself out. The world isn't going to put on kid gloves for any single religion or ideology. It's real easy to say that in the 21st century after reaping all the benefits that tens/hundreds of millions died for.
 

Jonnax

Member
As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks

They stood for freedom and they believed in it. If people like them remain silent then these people win.
 
It is a fucked up Muslim majority country containing more than 10% of the world's Muslim population.
It is, but I can then ask how many of that 10% are like these people in the article, and how many are just playing cricket and getting on with life.

Articles like this can make these kind of protests look bigger than they actually are. That's what I'm lamenting. We're not seeing smartly dressed and trimmed Pakistanis debating the cartoons in a cafe, we're seeing scruffy rednecks shouting loudly. It's a distorted view, it's not done on purpose by the news organisations, they're only going to report on what is newsworthy.

True

The difference is I'd be willing to accept that argument. There are some folks who just won't budge whatsoever on the opposite end, though.

Fake edit: I was totally going to make the argument that only the latter people also enable extremist behavior, but we all know how the West is down for proxy wars/wars on terror that hurt just as many (far more in the case of Iraq for example) Muslims as terrorists do and Muslims do get painted with a broad brush because of the shitty extremists (no way France will be a comfortable place for Muslims in the short term after those attacks). Really, the whole situation is fucked.

The whole situation is fucked because the diversity of the Muslim world is rarely recognized and articles like this can reinforce a binary view of Islam VS The West, when it's much more complicated than that.

200 doesn't actually sound like a lot if you consider that Karachi is the largest and most populous metropolitan city of Pakistan .

Lived up to your username. Good observation.
 
The whole situation is fucked because the diversity of the Muslim world is rarely recognized and articles like this can reinforce a binary view of the world.
These articles tend to hurt North Africa, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran (among others) the most. Somehow I don't think they paint Turkey or Indonesia (for example) as badly.
 

Montresor

Member
SuOhXgG.jpg


I don't think the message in this picture is from a fringe philosophy. I think a shit-ton of Muslims love their prophet way too much. My mom, a soft-hearted 58-year old grandmother, living in Canada for almost 30 years, also thinks people who draw the Muslim prophet should be killed. She didn't even have any hateful inflections in her voice - she just says it matter-of-factly, as if the thought goes without saying.

I'll show her this picture when I get home. It might be sick but I laughed out loud at work when I saw this - it's surreal, lol.
 

MaddenNFL64

Member
Why can't they live their lives with their religion, be happy and ignore the haters? If other people talk shit or do sinful stuff they should ignore it, they are infidels so they'll get what's coming to them in hell right?

Shouldn't this be the end all be all for these people? Your god is real, so all the infidels will get punished, surely. This god of theirs seems pretty weak if it needs humans to be an agent of retribution.
 
These articles tend to hurt North Africa, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran (among others) the most. Somehow I don't think they paint Turkey or Indonesia (for example) as badly.
Ideally you'd hope not, but how many people that read articles that reinforce negative stereotypes of Muslims will take that into account? For most it will just all blur together as one image of crazy Muslims.

'Worst act of terrorism', holy fucking shit. You live in Pakistan... Pakistan...

While their logic is still flawed, what they're trying to do is play on the stereotype of Muslims being terrorists in the West by spinning it back on the West and saying "You call us terrorists and kill us, but look at the bullshit you guys do". And then they talk about hanging cartoonists...weirdos.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
the problem is the Islam had no Age of Enlightenment, no reformation and no real cultural revolution, their religion and their behavior towards it is like from 300 years ago.

edit: before anyone thinks I want to say every muslim thinks this way, no I am not, it is just a root of evil why so many in these countries follow these old rules.
 

Falcs

Banned
Nope, keep publishing. What are they gonna do kill everyone? This is how change happens. The church no longer burns witches and heretics thanks to people having the balls to not give in to the bullshit.
Couldn't agree more. Publish more drawings of Mohammed. Everyone should. Show them we won't stand for their idiotic bullshit and give up our right to free speech.
 
Couldn't agree more. Publish more drawings of Mohammed. Everyone should. Show them we won't stand for their idiotic bullshit and give up our right to free speech.

i'd pay for a plane to dump thousands of charlie hebdo comics onto these radicals


it should never.....ever....be a crime to create drawings.
 

Joni

Member
It is, but I can then ask how many of that 10% are like these people in the article, and how many are just playing cricket and getting on with life.

Articles like this can make these kind of protests look bigger than they actually are. That's what I'm lamenting. We're not seeing smartly dressed and trimmed Pakistanis debating the cartoons in a cafe, we're seeing scruffy rednecks shouting loudly. It's a distorted view, it's not done on purpose by the news organisations, they're only going to report on what is newsworthy.
While it is only these people protesting - with the only caveat, the number 200 is only the number that attacked the police and might not be the full number - most of them don't need to protest because the government representing them has already condemned the cartoons. A nation that contains 10% of the world muslim population looks at that event and says, yes, we need to condemn the cartoonists. Their religious leaders called for protests.

200 doesn't actually sound like a lot if you consider that Karachi is the largest and most populous metropolitan city of Pakistan .
200 that participated in the skirmish.
 

FZZ

Banned
200 protesters is nothing in a country of that size, although most people there probably do condemn the drawings of Prophet Muhammad. Eh Pakistan has bigger issues to sort out than the drawings of some French cartoonists. Sad to see, but Pakistan is all over the place at the moment.

On the other hand the semi-racist and generalization of Pakistanis in this thread is gr8

can't say anything bad about their dead cult leader / warlord

i'm offended at their radicalism

therefore, they all deserve to be hanged immediately

#pakistanilogic

Get the fuck out of here with this fucking toxic, racist shit

Expected more from you of all fucking people
 
Does a day go by in Pakistan without an angry mob burning a flag and putting a jihad on someone or something?

That photograph with the banner would be hilarious if they weren't completely serious, and there wasn't a whole bunch of extremists who would be happy to oblige them given half the chance.
 
the problem is the Islam had no Age of Enlightenment, no reformation and no real cultural revolution, their religion and their behavior towards it is like from 300 years ago.

A very broad sweeping post.

The Muslim World has never been as connected as The West is (except for the early days when it was united as one country) so intellectual ideas and movements in one Muslim country wouldn't really spread into another the same way it did in the West. This networking allowed the West to grow together, but in the Muslim world things have been divided.

For example the Tanzimat period of Turkey and the establishment of the Republic by Ataturk can definitely be compared to the Western intellectual developments you describe, except it was all limited in scope to Turkey itself.

Pakistan has never had something like that unfortunately, in fact when Ataturk disbanded the Caliphate there were Muslim Indians protesting AGAINST it. Indeed Pakistan has gone backwards over the years, initially set up as a secular country and becoming Islamified by careless coup-installed army generals (who weren't interested in Islam themselves) over the years.

Then on a totally different tangent you have the Saudis using their oil billions to spread Wahabbism across the Muslim world.

Does a day go by in Pakistan without an angry mob burning a flag and putting a jihad on someone or something?.
Yes. That would be called an average day by most Pakistanis.
 
Get the fuck out of here with this fucking toxic, racist shit

Expected more from you of all fucking people

i'm sorry. i know my posts are out of line.

i just get very, very pissed off at the fact this even fucking exists. so upset that i lash out with bitter cynicism and generalisations.


clearly i understand that there are lots of pakistanis who don't condone this nonsense.
 

DOWN

Banned
Racist just doesn't mean anything nowadays, does it?
I think very few people have read the definition, consider logic in how it applies to what they deem racist terminology, or consider the intent of what they refer to as racist.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
A very broad sweeping post.

The Muslim World has never been as connected as The West is (except for the early days when it was united as one country) so intellectual ideas and movements in one Muslim country wouldn't really spread into another the same way it did in the West. This networking allowed the West to grow together, but in the Muslim world things have been divided.

For example the Tanzimat period of Turkey and the establishment of the Republic by Ataturk can definitely be compared to the Western intellectual developments you describe, except it was all limited in scope to Turkey itself.

Pakistan has never had something like that unfortunately, in fact when Ataturk disbanded the Caliphate there were Muslim Indians protesting AGAINST it. Indeed Pakistan has gone backwards over the years, initially set up as a secular country and becoming Islamified by careless coup-installed army generals (who weren't interested in Islam themselves) over the years.


Yes. That would be called an average day by most Pakistanis.

Ah yes of course I failed to think about this, the countries are not as connected as Europe was/is, good call.
 

MaddenNFL64

Member
200 protesters is nothing in a country of that size, although most people there probably do condemn the drawings of Prophet Muhammad. Eh Pakistan has bigger issues to sort out than the drawings of some French cartoonists. Sad to see, but Pakistan is all over the place at the moment.

On the other hand the semi-racist and generalization of Pakistanis in this thread is gr8





Get the fuck out of here with this fucking toxic, racist shit

Expected more from you of all fucking people

It was a play on their own rhetoric, and none of those responses brought up race in any way. These idiots asking for hangings should be ridiculed.
 

Scoot2005

Banned
Fuck these assholes. What a bunch of barbarians.

Edit - And that motherfucker at the bottom needs to learn how to spell.
 
Ah yes of course I failed to think about this, the countries are not as connected as Europe was/is, good call.
On top of that networking I think the discovery of the Americas and subsequent worldwide imperial expansions by European Empires were very helpful in establishing the machinations that caused the West to end up how it is, whereas a history of being colonised has left much of the Muslim World the way they are.

The words of the Bible haven't changed but the society around it has. The same needs to happen for the Quran. I think the best way for that to happen is by economic prosperity.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
200 protesters is nothing in a country of that size, although most people there probably do condemn the drawings of Prophet Muhammad. Eh Pakistan has bigger issues to sort out than the drawings of some French cartoonists. Sad to see, but Pakistan is all over the place at the moment.

200 protesters is indeed not a lot of people, but let's not downplay the number of Pakistanis who agree with the notion that blasphemers should be killed.

Wikipedia:
"The Pakistan Penal Code prohibits blasphemy against any recognized religion, providing penalties ranging from a fine to death. From 1987 to 2014 over 1300 people have been accused of blasphemy, mostly non-Muslim religious minorities. The vast majority of the accusations were lodged for desecration of the Quran.

Over 50 people accused of blasphemy have been murdered before their respective trials were over, and prominent figures who opposed blasphemy laws (Salman Taseer, the former governor of Punjab, and Shahbaz Bhatti, the Federal Minister for Minorities) have been assassinated. Since 1990, 62 people have been murdered as a result of blasphemy allegations."

They take this shit very, very seriously in Pakistan.
 

near

Gold Member
The funny thing is aniconism in Islam doesn't encourage muslims to enforce a death penalty it's just people who can't be bothered to read the book of there own faith and use common sense that resolve to barbaric crimes. Its also quite unfortunate that this is becoming an Islam vs the West debacle, where a minority of muslims suddenly represent 23% of the worlds popluation, thats 1.6 billion people. Smells a bit like propaganda and its sad.
 
This happened in my city today too (Amman, Jordan). Crowds were marching towards the French embassy and demanding to end cooperation with governments that allow insults to Islam to be published. There were clashes with police and arrests.

20151161354RN483.jpeg


big20151161359RN769.jpeg


big20151161652RN570.jpeg


big20151161653RN824.jpeg


Slightly ironic considering our king and queen marched in Paris earlier this week.

source (Arabic)
 

FZZ

Banned
Racist just doesn't mean anything nowadays, does it?

It was a play on their own rhetoric, and none of those responses brought up race in any way. These idiots asking for hangings should be ridiculed.

Generalizing Pakistanis as a whole is something I'd consider racist, maybe I just don't know the proper term for when you're talking about a group of people from a single country but I am pretty sure its still called racism.

I'm not saying don't ridicule these people asking for hangings, anyone who would support killing a person from a drawing isn't someone I'd defend. I'm saying a lot of these responses are generalizing Pakistanis as a whole in a bigoted and disgusting manner. I only quoted Aquamarine because she is one of the more rational posters on GAF and what she said just shocked me.
 

Scoot2005

Banned
English's not their first language.

Would like some in here to start spelling in Urdu lol.

Dude next to him spelled it right... Just sayin.

Edit - His friend could have looked over and just said... "E dude. There is supposed to be an E at the end. Don't make us look like fools lol."
 
They take this shit very, very seriously in Pakistan.
The people that take that shit seriously have the balance of power tipped in their favour unfortunately. The number of Christians that want Biblical law in America are probably a higher number than we might imagine, but the machinations of American politics and society means they can't do shit about it.

In Pakistan those machinations are non-existent, it's literally a Wild West where the people willing to kill (which overlaps with zealotry) can keep a whole society hostage (similar to what Christopher Hitchens has said).

This happened in my city today too (Amman, Jordan). Crowds were marching towards the French embassy and demanding to end cooperation with governments that allow insults to Islam to be published. There were clashes with police and arrests.

20151161354RN483.jpeg


big20151161359RN769.jpeg


Slightly ironic considering our king and queen marched in Paris earlier this week.

source (Arabic)

I bet crowds like this across the Muslim world heavily overlap with the poorest demographics.
 
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