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[Costia]

What you refer to as 'unfortunate' and 'stupid political games' is not seen that way by the majority of the world. It's seen as far more vicious, malicious, and evidence of incredible bad faith from the Israeli side of this conflict.

They're just going to do some more building where they shouldn't.

I agree with both of you.
But i think the world should be more focused on hamas and what they are doing in gaza.
It looks very one-sided from my point of view when a sum-0 empty buildings are being constructed and demolished and it gets to world news, while the hamas can do whatever they want the the reaction is "well, they are terrorists, nothing new here, move along"
Even Abumazen himself asked Saudi arabia to bomb hamas, yet there are still western people who support or are neutral towards hamas.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/03/30/403958/Palestinians-slam-Abbas-antiGaza-remarks

 

[zeroOman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005
Tensions between Fatah and Hamas began to rise in 2005.

What a coincidence... Just as Israel leaves the tension between them begins.
You are not wrong, but the tension started because before that Hamas didn't have a chance, they were busy fighting the IDF, so they didn't even try. When the IDF left, they took over.

What i am refering to happened way before that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israe...bollah_.28February_1985_.E2.80.93_May_2000.29

Israel declared 24 May 2000 that they would withdraw to their side of the UN designated border,[10] the Blue Line, 22 years after the resolution had been approved. The South Lebanon Army's equipment and positions largely fell into the hands of Hezbollah.



Yeah, and in 2014 Asad won 88% of the votes in siriya...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_presidential_election,_2014
This is the middle east you are talking about, not canada.

As for on topic - there is no discussion to be had here. They are terrorists and should be punished as such.

holy shit u know Gaza was under Abbas control and I think the UN and other orgnization was there to watch over the election ...

 

[Toxi]

I agree with both of you.
But i think the world should be more focused on hamas and what they are doing in gaza.
It looks very one-sided from my point of view when a sum-0 empty buildings are being constructed and demolished and it gets to world news, while the hamas can do whatever they want the the reaction is "well, they are terrorists, nothing new here, move along"
Even Abumazen himself asked Saudi arabia to bomb hamas, yet there are still western people who support or are neutral towards hamas.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/03/30/403958/Palestinians-slam-Abbas-antiGaza-remarks

Your country bombed the hell out of the Gaza Strip last year, killing over 1000 civilians and leveling their infrastructure with the excuse of attacking Hamas, and yet you get continued American support, and you're seriously trying to say the rest of the world is too hard on Israel instead of Hamas.

 

[Tactics18]

I want to hear Ayelet Shaked make a statement on this.

She has. Taken from her Facebook Page

ילד קטן בן חודשים ספורים נשרף למוות.
אני חושבת על רגעיו האחרונים, על הוריו שניסו להצילו מן האש הבוערת, מן התופת.
אין פה, במקרה הנורא הזה, יהודים או ערבים, שמאלנים או ימניים.
יש פה מאבק בין בני אור לבני חושך.
יש פה טרור אכזרי שנלחם בו עד חורמה, בלי אבל ובלי סייג.
נאמר בקול צלול וברור: "חלקם של הקיצוניים והאלימים לא יהיה עימנו".
עלינו כחברה, להוקיע את אלו שחרתו את האלימות על דגלם, ולפעול כנגדם במלוא חומרת הדין.
חוק הטרור שהעברנו השבוע בועדת שרים, מבהיר כי לא נסבול אלימות כזו משום צד.

My quick & rough translation

A little child, two months old burned to death.
I'm thinking about his last moments, about his parents who tried to save him from the flames, from the fire.
In this horrible situation there's no Jews or Arabs, left or right.
There is a struggle between light and dark.
Theres is brutal terror, which we will fight to the end, without but's and if's.
We will say out loud: "The part of the radical and the violent will not be with us."
Our society needs to denounce those who engraved violence on their flags, and act against them with the full extent of the law.
The terror law which we passed this week in the minister's summit clarifies the we will not tolerate this kind of violence from either side.

I read about it this morning after I woke up, horrible way to start the day.
RIP and condolences to the family. I hope the fuckers will get caught quickly and locked in a cell for the rest of their lives.

But this thread just makes me want to stay away from GAF.
Some infuriating posts.

 

[Costia]

Your country bombed the hell out of the Gaza Strip last year, killing over 1000 civilians and leveling their infrastructure with the excuse of attacking Hamas, and yet you get continued American support, and you're seriously trying to say the rest of the world is too hard on Israel instead of Hamas.

Yes. If you attacked Hamas instead we wouldn't have to.
Do that, or let Israel take care of it itself.
You can't say we (UN/US) aren't going to do jack-shit about it so just let the Hamas murder you all.
You think you can do better? Then please do it. We will be grateful.

Edit: meta: this thread is actually a lot more level-headed than I expected.

 

[googleplex]

I wish people reacted the same way whenever a Palestinian kills a jew.

What the fuck? This comment is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[m_shortpants]

Yes. If you attacked Hamas instead we wouldn't have to.
Do that, or let Israel take care of it itself.
You can't say we (UN/US) aren't going to do jack-shit about it so just let the Hamas murder you all.
You think you can do better? Then please do it. We will be grateful.

Edit: meta: this thread is actually a lot more level-headed than I expected.

No one has to "do better" before they can criticize Israel's actions. You're seriously reaching if you thought the operation in Gaza last year was carried out well.

 

[Costia]

No one has to "do better" before they can criticize Israel's actions. You're seriously reaching if you thought the operation in Gaza last year was carried out well.

You can criticize all you wan't. But unless you can do better (or anything at all besides criticizing) it's quite pointless.
I don't think another army would have done better if that's what you are getting at.
War is bad. Any war is bad. So by definition there is no war that ever happened, that was carried out in a "good" way.
The best option would have been to avoid it altogether. The fact that it did happen is a political and diplomatic failure of the Israelis and the Palestinians (and a few other countries as well).

 

[m_shortpants]

You can criticize all you wan't. But unless you can do better (or anything at all besides criticizing) it's quite pointless.
I don't think another army would have done better if that's what you are getting at.
War is bad. Any war is bad. So by definition there is no war that ever was, was carried out in a "good" way.
The best option would have been to avoid it altogether - which is a political and diplomatic failure of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

As the occupying force and the entity with far more power, military and otherwise, you wouldn't agree that the majority of the onus is on Israel?

 

[orochi91]

As the occupying force and the entity with far more power, military and otherwise, you wouldn't agree that the majority of the onus is on Israel?

You won't get him to concede any significant fault or accountability on Israel's behalf in this matter.

Costia is drowning in Israeli propaganda.

 

[Father_Brain]

If you can look at the incredibly lopsided death toll from Protective Edge and claim that Israel acted purely in legitimate self-defense, I can only conclude that you've written Israel a near-total moral blank check for anything it claims to be in the interests of its own security.

I don't think there's much of any conversation to be had at that point, honestly.

 

[orochi91]

If you can look at the incredibly lopsided death toll from Protective Edge and claim that Israel acted purely in legitimate self-defense, I can only conclude that you've written Israel a near-total moral blank check for anything it claims to be in the interests of its own security.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I can't stop laughing at the thought of Hamas being considered a high threat to Israel's security.

Hamas is an enraged flea riding on the back of a dog that is missing its limbs, has had its tongue cut off, eyes burned out, and ears stopped up by the Israeli government. Palestine, and Gaza in particular, is in a state of oppression and terror due to the IDF/Israeli government.

They are aggressive, angry, and many hate Israel, but they have been so effectively gimped by blockades, illegal land grabs, and war that it's a wonder why we give Israel ANY arms. They don't need it.

 

[pgtl_10]

I agree with both of you.
But i think the world should be more focused on hamas and what they are doing in gaza.
It looks very one-sided from my point of view when a sum-0 empty buildings are being constructed and demolished and it gets to world news, while the hamas can do whatever they want the the reaction is "well, they are terrorists, nothing new here, move along"
Even Abumazen himself asked Saudi arabia to bomb hamas, yet there are still western people who support or are neutral towards hamas.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/03/30/403958/Palestinians-slam-Abbas-antiGaza-remarks

He's not a gauge of Palestinian opinion. He's a stooge placed there because the US insists on him being there.

 

[Costia]

As the occupying force and the entity with far more power, military and otherwise, you wouldn't agree that the majority of the onus is on Israel?

If Israel could use that power to force a peace treaty like in classic country vs country, army vs army, scenarios i would have agreed.
But that power is meaningless when you are fighting terrorists that don't care about their own or their citizen's lives.
OK, so we have the power to bomb them even more. So? Hamas doesn't care. No point in doing that or even threatening to do that.
What Israel is doing is investing billions of dollars in defensive tech like the iron dome so it won't have to go to war as frequently. Investing in buying and improving US fighter jets and missiles to be more precise so less collateral damage is done when targeting a specific person. Investing in developing a reactive armor for tanks (TROPHY APS) so less tanks would be needed - which will reduce the casualties on both sides.
We are doing the best we can. If it's not good enough for you. Then please help us do better or do better yourself. Last time I checked the US wasn't weaker than Israel, so you could take the responsibility from our hands.
You can't blame the palestinian civilians - they don't have much choice. But giving free reign to hamas isn't a good option either.

You won't get him to concede any significant fault or accountability on Israel's behalf in this matter.
Costia is drowning in Israeli propaganda.

As you are drowniong in palestinian.

He's not a gauge of Palestinian opinion. He's a stooge placed there because the US insists on him being there.

So who should rule in gaza? and in the west bank?

 

[pgtl_10]

An interesting article on the original partition plan:

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/independent-sovereign-palestine

That map made no sense given the demographics at the time.

 

[aeolist]

Yes. If you attacked Hamas instead we wouldn't have to.

you are saying that you have to continually invade, oppress, quarantine, and murder the civilians of palestine? you have to obliterate thousands in response to attacks that injure a few and occasionally kill? your first-world american-funded high-tech rich nation isn't obligated to be morally superior to the dirt poor refugees you have spent 60 years displacing, provoking, and killing?

 

[KingK]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

 

[Anton Sugar]

you are saying that you have to continually invade, oppress, quarantine, and murder the civilians of palestine? you have to obliterate thousands in response to attacks that injure a few and occasionally kill? your first-world american-funded high-tech rich nation isn't obligated to be morally superior to the dirt poor refugees you have spent 60 years displacing, provoking, and killing?

Didn't you notice? Hamas is killing tens of...well, tens of Israelis every year.

I'm pretty sure the South Carolina PD has killed more people this year than Hamas has.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

Almost feels like someone is using a check-list to form their arguments.

 

[GYODX]

Palestinians say hello.

That's why their numbers keep growing, right?

 

[Toxi]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

It's sobering because it won't stop. Israel has a strange form of double think when it comes to the illegal settlements and the consequences of said settlements. People like Costia are like "yeah, we know it's illegal, can't do much about it" as if their country's expansion had nothing to do with this tragedy.

 

[Terra Firma]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

The Holocaust was brought up, as well.

 

[Skyzard]

If Israel could use that power to force a peace treaty like in classic country vs country, army vs army, scenarios i would have agreed.
But that power is meaningless when you are fighting terrorists that don't care about their own or their citizen's lives.
OK, so we have the power to bomb them even more. So? Hamas doesn't care. No point in doing that or even threatening to do that.
What Israel is doing is investing billions of dollars in defensive tech like the iron dome so it won't have to go to war as frequently. Investing in buying and improving US fighter jets and missiles to be more precise so less collateral damage is done when targeting a specific person. Investing in developing a reactive armor for tanks (TROPHY APS) so less tanks would be needed - which will reduce the casualties on both sides.
We are doing the best we can. If it's not good enough for you. Then please help us do better or do better yourself. Last time I checked the US wasn't weaker than Israel, so you could take the responsibility from our hands.
You can't blame the palestinian civilians - they don't have much choice. But giving free reign to hamas isn't a good option either.

Defensive tech like drones and missiles for shitty pilots and soldiers to fire and cause massive civilian damage.

You have to bomb the Arab terrorists, right.

What's your basis for asking other countries to attack Hamas if you just accept war is ugly and there are limitations to consider? Only for one side I guess.

Bolivia and Venezuela consider Israel a terrorist state and many nations condemned Israel for the way they bombed so many civilians recklessly. And quite a few countries with some weight don't consider Hamas a terrorist organization including Norway, Switzerland, Russia, China.

So which group, or bunch of terrorists are really worth worrying about? How about comparing their funding support for weapons ... or the damage, including civilian, caused by the two. Or which is pummeling the other and the people they represent beyond reason. Pretty much with the same lustful vengeance as you see from their heavy right wing fans.

A lot of times I see a narrative trying to be pushed with racist language not so subtly dehumanizing large groups of Arabs as terrorists, whom Israel must bomb them to protect freedom. One guy implied it outright and got banned for it in this thread. I'm not talking about Hamas.

The same way people referred to Iraqis as terrorists after 9/11 and the illegal invasion. Suddenly their rights to defend their country, even when completely justified, are ignored because Arabs are terrorists. It's just shuffled away.

And that's what I see people often trying to do but instead of ignoring it they rely on it for their message, the Arabs are the terrorists.

 

[pgtl_10]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

Europeans killed Jews and sent them to ovens.

 

[pgtl_10]

That's why their numbers keep growing, right?

Ethnic cleansing can mean loss of land. Genocide is generally referred to a loss of population.

 

[Mael]

Regardless of the shitty situation this whole mess is,
I really hope they find the scums who did this, throw them in prison or worse and throw away the key.
Seriously regardless of the situation, there's just no excuse for what happened.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Ethnic cleansing can mean loss of land. Genocide is generally referred to a loss of population.

Yup. This is basically ethniccleansing.jpg

 

[Costia]

you are saying that you have to continually invade, oppress, quarantine, and murder the civilians of palestine?

No. Nobdy is targeting the civilians. Hamas are the target.
I am asking you to do better at harming the terrorists without hurting the civilians.

you have to obliterate thousands in response to attacks that injure a few and occasionally kill?

I find this sentiment very hypocritical. It's easy to say when it's not your house that's getting hit by a rocket, and it's not your relatives that are getting injured.

your first-world american-funded high-tech rich nation isn't obligated to be morally superior to the dirt poor refugees you have spent 60 years displacing, provoking, and killing?

It is obligated to be moral, and it is doing its best.
If you have better suggestions that don't involve us getting killed by extremists coming you are welcome to implement/execute them.
Pressing "like" on a Facebook post isn't going to save anyone. Complaining on the internet and suggesting "miracle" solutions that don't work in real life won't either.

 

[shinobi602]

If Israel could use that power to force a peace treaty like in classic country vs country, army vs army, scenarios i would have agreed.
But that power is meaningless when you are fighting terrorists that don't care about their own or their citizen's lives.
OK, so we have the power to bomb them even more. So? Hamas doesn't care. No point in doing that or even threatening to do that.
What Israel is doing is investing billions of dollars in defensive tech like the iron dome so it won't have to go to war as frequently. Investing in buying and improving US fighter jets and missiles to be more precise so less collateral damage is done when targeting a specific person. Investing in developing a reactive armor for tanks (TROPHY APS) so less tanks would be needed - which will reduce the casualties on both sides.
We are doing the best we can. If it's not good enough for you. Then please help us do better or do better yourself. Last time I checked the US wasn't weaker than Israel, so you could take the responsibility from our hands.
You can't blame the palestinian civilians - they don't have much choice. But giving free reign to hamas isn't a good option either.

The "best you can" would be to stop building settlements on Palestinian land and encroaching further and further into their territory, modern day colonization. That would probably be a good first step to, you know, ensure Palestinian youth don't grow up hating your guts and prompting attacks? But we all know that's not going to happen soon.

 

[Costia]

So we've already gone through "Israel critics are all just anti-semites!" "Media is biased against Israel!" "Other countries have done as bad/worse things in the past!" and "But what about Hamas!" as ways to excuse/distract from the topic of this thread, a fucking toddler being burned alive. Anything else i missed?

Yes. You missed everyone denouncing it. The discussion has move on from that topic long ago.

The "best you can" would be to stop building settlements on Palestinian land and encroaching further and further into their territory, modern day colonization. That would probably be a good first step to ensure Palestinian youth don't grow up hating your guts. But we all know that's not going to happen soon.

I agree with that. On the political front Israel is messing up very badly.

...
And that's what I see people often trying to do but instead of ignoring it they rely on it for their message.

Some people see Arabs as one group. That's not the case. They are diverse. They even fight among themselves.
There are Muslim terrorists - but they are an extremely small minority. The problem is they are the most aggressive so they tend to have the most weapons and military power (compared to the majority of peaceful civilians surrounding them).
Its a complicated problem. How do you hurt the extremists without hurting the others? So far i din't see anyone having a working solution, anything any country so far tried ended up as a literally bloody mess. So most European countries and lately the US tend to do nothing (ignoring ISIS, Assad, Iran, Egypt - which is doing fine fighting them themselves for now) . But that's not an option for us since we actually live here. Leaving Israel like the US left Iraq is not an option.

 

[Sage00]

Europeans killed Jews and sent them to ovens.

The "but what about the holocaust" card expired about 50 years back.

Edit: oh I see you were summarising the current discussion. Consider this post redirected at those posters.

 

[Terra Firma]

Yes. You missed everyone denouncing it. The discussion has move on from that topic long ago.

What's the point of denouncing anything when Israel doesn't actually DO anything about it? The continued settlement construction and the continued violation of international law is exactly why Mahmoud Abbas unilaterally went to the UN to seek recognition.

You do realize that a lot of the violence is a REACTION to what Israel is doing, right? Just because you denounce something and then continue to harp on the Palestinians for reacting to what Israel is doing doesn't mean anything.

Not to mention the fact that the death toll as well as the inhumanity of the murders is heavily skewed on the side that you claim are the terrorists.

 

[Toxi]

It is obligated to be moral, and it is doing its best.

You are delusional if you think Operation Protective Edge was Israel doing its best to be moral.

 

[Terra Firma]

No. Nobdy is targeting the civilians. Hamas are the target.
I am asking you to do better at harming the terrorists without hurting the civilians.

I find this sentiment very hypocritical. It's easy to say when it's not your house that's getting hit by a rocket, and it's not your relatives that are getting injured.

It is obligated to be moral, and it is doing its best.
If you have better suggestions that don't involve us getting killed by extremists coming you are welcome to implement/execute them.
Pressing "like" on a Facebook post isn't going to save anyone. Complaining on the internet and suggesting "miracle" solutions that don't work in real life won't either.

How about stop building settlements?

How about stop bulldozing houses and farms?

How about stop brainwashing your people to hate Arabs?

How about stop overexaggerating every response to any perceived threat?

How about actually obeying the laws of war and not targeting civilian areas and even shelters when carrying out said overexaggerated response?

You say that Israel is doing the best it can but you fail to realize that Hamas is a RESPONSE to what Israel has been doing. If Israel WAS doing the best it could, there wouldn't even be a Hamas. Hamas is also relatively recent compared to the founding of Israel. What is your excuse for what was going on before then? What is your excuse for what Israel was doing before the suicide bombings began?

 

[KingK]

The Holocaust was brought up, as well.

Europeans killed Jews and sent them to ovens.

Ah yeah, i did miss one.

Yes. You missed everyone denouncing it. The discussion has move on from that topic long ago.

Except a few of those denouncing it seem awfully hesitant to admit that the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli government directly relate to tragedies like this happening, and instead immediately deflect to what the Arabs/Palestinians are doing wrong. It reminds me a lot of the fuckery that goes on in BLM/police brutality threads.

 

[wsippel]

I don't actually believe in live after death, but if it exists, and if there is karma, I hope every supporter of Israel gets reborn as a Palestine in the occupied territories.

Europeans killed Jews and sent them to ovens.

...

 

[Skyzard]

Some people see Arabs as one group. That's not the case. They are diverse. They even fight among themselves.
There are Muslim terrorists - but they are an extremely small minority. The problem is they are the most aggressive so they tend to have the most weapons and military power (compared to the majority of peaceful civilians surrounding them).
Its a complicated problem. How do you hurt the extremists without hurting the others? So far i din't see anyone having a working solution, anything any country so far tried ended up as a literally bloody mess. So most European countries and lately the US tend to do nothing. But that's not an option for us since we actually live here. Leaving Israel like the US left Iraq is not an option.

Right, the best response to deal with some tunnels and to discourage potential future attacks is to start a full war on the small bit of land you're occupying hostility and bomb the shit out of all of them no matter the civilian cost.

Israel had a choice, and it chose to bask in murder.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

How about stop building settlements?

How about stop bulldozing houses and farms?

How about stop brainwashing your people to hate Arabs?

How about stop overexaggerating every response to any perceived threat?

How about actually obeying the laws of war and not targeting civilian areas and even shelters when carrying out said overexaggerated response?

You say that Israel is doing the best it can but you fail to realize that Hamas is a RESPONSE to what Israel has been doing. If Israel WAS doing the best it could, there wouldn't even be a Hamas. Hamas is also relatively recent compared to the founding of Israel. What is your excuse for what was going on before then? What is your excuse for what Israel was doing before the suicide bombings began?

Damn. You lawyered him good

 

[wsippel]

No. Nobdy is targeting the civilians. Hamas are the target.
I am asking you to do better at harming the terrorists without hurting the civilians.

We managed to take out the Red Army Faction just fine, without blowing up half the country and killing thousands of civilians.

 

[F1Fan]

Europeans killed Jews and sent them to ovens.

Think you need a history lesson. Nazi's, aka Germany, does not equal the whole of Europe. In fact most of Europe fought against the Nazi's and died trying in the process.

As for Israel. They are essentially acting as Nazi's did during WW2, but on a far slower and smaller scale. They keep on stealing land, which is illegal in international law, (same thing Nazi's tried to do and for many years were successful.) and they continue to kill thousands of Palestinians in the name of protecting themself (A similar story used by Hitler used to start WW2 in Europe).

Sure some Israelis are being killed by Hamas terrorist, none is arguing against that, but they response they issue are ridiculous, by killing thousands of innocent Palestinians for actions of a few Hamas terrorists.

Their actions are unbelievable wrong.

 

[Chariot]

We managed to take out the Red Army Faction just fine, without blowing up half the country and killing thousands of civilians.

Uhm. The situations of Hamas and RAF are totally different. I don't know how they relate other than being considered some kind of terrorists.

 

[Costia]

Ah yeah, i did miss one.
Except a few of those denouncing it seem awfully hesitant to admit that the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli government directly relate to tragedies like this happening, and instead immediately deflect to what the Arabs/Palestinians are doing wrong. It reminds me a lot of the fuckery that goes on in BLM/police brutality threads.

Not me. And if anyone got that impression, I am sorry since it is not my intention at all.

How about stop building settlements?
How about stop bulldozing houses and farms?

I am in favor of those as well.

How about stop brainwashing your people to hate Arabs?

We don't. There are a lot of arabs in my city and everyone seem to get along just fine.
The problem is the history between arabs and israelis. No brainwashing is needed, everyone still remembers the wars when the surrounding arab countries tried to eliminate Israel.
It will take time to pass.

How about stop overexaggerating every response to any perceived threat?
How about actually obeying the laws of war and not targeting civilian areas and even shelters when carrying out said overexaggerated response?
You say that Israel is doing the best it can but you fail to realize that Hamas is a RESPONSE to what Israel has been doing. If Israel WAS doing the best it could, there wouldn't even be a Hamas. Hamas is also relatively recent compared to the founding of Israel. What is your excuse for what was going on before then? What is your excuse for what Israel was doing before the suicide bombings began?

Actual wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel
Before 67 Gaza belonged to Egypt. The west bank belonged to Jordan.
Israel was supposed to give those territories back to Jordan and Egypt in the peace treaties, but they refused to take them back (Egypt is 79, Jordan in 94).
So Israel got "stuck" with these regions with no idea what to do with them. We didn't occupy them by choice.

 

[Terra Firma]

Think you need a history lesson. Nazi's, aka Germany, does not equal the whole of Europe. In fact most of Europe fought against the Nazi's and died trying in the process.

As for Israel. They are essentially acting as Nazi's did during WW2, but on a far slower and smaller scale. They keep on stealing land, which is illegal in international law, (same thing Nazi's tried to do and for many years were successful.) and they continue to kill thousands of Palestinians in the name of protecting themself (A similar story used by Hitler used to start WW2 in Europe).

Sure some Israelis are being killed by Hamas terrorist, none is arguing against that, but they response they issue are ridiculous, by killing thousands of innocent Palestinians for actions of a few Hamas terrorists.

Their actions are unbelievable wrong.

He's just quoting what was brought up earlier in the thread as the excuse to why Israel should exist as a Jewish state.

 

[orochi91]

How about stop building settlements?

How about stop bulldozing houses and farms?

How about stop brainwashing your people to hate Arabs?

How about stop overexaggerating every response to any perceived threat?

How about actually obeying the laws of war and not targeting civilian areas and even shelters when carrying out said overexaggerated response?

You say that Israel is doing the best it can but you fail to realize that Hamas is a RESPONSE to what Israel has been doing. If Israel WAS doing the best it could, there wouldn't even be a Hamas. Hamas is also relatively recent compared to the founding of Israel. What is your excuse for what was going on before then? What is your excuse for what Israel was doing before the suicide bombings began?

Right, the best response to deal with some tunnels and to discourage potential future attacks is to start a full war on the small bit of land you're occupying hostility and bomb the shit out of all of them no matter the civilian cost.

Israel had a choice, and it chose to bask in murder.

+1

Outstanding posts.

 

[wsippel]

Uhm. The situations of Hamas and RAF are totally different. I don't know how they relate other than being considered some kind of terrorists.

They're not actually that different in itself (and they were allies - not that this detail actually matters). If anything, the RAF was much smaller but more intelligent and dangerous. They easily managed to assassinate high ranking VIPs, but they didn't care about blowing up civilians for shits and giggles. And the scenario is (or was) very different indeed, but that wasn't really caused by the organizations in question. Still, the point is that the RAF was a very dangerous, successful terrorist organization, and it was defeated. Which was in part facilitated by the fact that the general public supported the police, not the terrorists. But they supported the state because the state didn't treat them all like terrorists.

 

[F1Fan]

He's just quoting what was brought up earlier in the thread as the excuse to why Israel should exist as a Jewish state.

Sorry Terra, I am not following you. I haven't read most of the thread posts, just making my point that's all.

 

[Walpurgis]

Almost every week my Catholic priest criticizes Israel. I'm kinda getting brainwashed by my priest into hating Israel when he keeps mixing gospel with hatred towards Israel. And the weird thing is this is happening in Korea.

You shouldn't need your brain to be washed to see Israel for what it really is. Your priest sounds like a man of justice.

 

[Chariot]

They're not actually that different in itself (and they were allies - not that this detail actually matters). If anything, the RAF was much smaller but more intelligent and dangerous. They easily managed to assassinate high ranking VIPs, but they didn't care about blowing up civilians for shits and giggles. And the scenario is (or was) very different indeed, but that wasn't really caused by the organizations in question. Still, the point is that the RAF was a very dangerous, successful terrorist organization, and it was defeated. Which was in part facilitated by the fact that the general public supported the police, not the terrorists. But they supported the state because the state didn't treat them all like terrorists.

You are comparing a domestic left wing ideologic terrorist group with a group that is technically from another country and differs in ethnic and religion. The RAF were german revolutionaries that were fighting the establishment, the hamas fight the foreign power that tries to colonize their land.

 

[F1Fan]

One more point I wish to make. Anyone who is trying to justify Israelis actions, keep this in mind. There are a combined 4.4 million Palestinians living in the area, Gaza (1.7 mil) & West Bank (2.7 mil).

Now let's honestly ask our self a question. Out of the 4.4 million people, how many are actual Hamas terrorists that are a threat to Israel. 20k? 30k? 50k? 1 Million?

Even if there were 1 Million Hamas terrorists (which they clearly aren't), that still leaves 3.4 Million ordinary civilians living in a prison essentially. A prison which offers them no vote, no prospects of any future, no life essentially.

How can anyone defend this policy? You can't punish the majority of population their whole life, for the actions of the few. It's totally crazy.

What's even more sad, that it is the Jews that are doing this. One would expect, considering what they went though, to have a better understanding and more compassion to other less fortunate people than the rest of the world.

Sadly it's the other way around. Quite unbelievable, the whole situation.