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[pgtl_10]

Stormfront posters hate jews and Israel too.

Racists tend to be very contradictory.

 

[Terra Firma]

Sorry Terra, I am not following you. I haven't read most of the thread posts, just making my point that's all.

Read what he's responding to. He was providing another bullet point for the list of excuses that Israel apologists have already brought up in this thread (and have done so in every other Israel related thread).

 

[Crash Station]

As for Israel. They are essentially acting as Nazi's did during WW2, but on a far slower and smaller scale. They keep on stealing land, which is illegal in international law, (same thing Nazi's tried to do and for many years were successful.) and they continue to kill thousands of Palestinians in the name of protecting themself (A similar story used by Hitler used to start WW2 in Europe).

Let's not go crazy here with Nazi comparisons. It does a pretty massive disservice to discussing the current conflict and remembering WW2.

Edit: I also wish the topic could stay on the smaller scale discussion of the awful, AWFUL event of a toddler being burned to death without bringing the greater conflict in it. I felt the same way when that one guy was axing Israelis to death a while back.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Fuck the settlers, fuck Hamas, and fuck Netanyahu and his hawkish colleagues in government.

Paramilitary organizations need to stop being the face of Palestine. Israel needs to take the high ground and initial the peace process. And everyone needs to tone down the rhetoric.

News flash: Being an English speaking forum, chances are that your country was founded under even more fucked up circumstances than Israel. For the Americans like myself, we destroyed two countries and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over one isolated incident 14 years ago. Not thousands, or tens of thousands over half a century. Hundreds of thousands over less than a decade. We killed 100 million natives in conquering the continental US. I'm not saying you can't criticize Israel but for fucks sake get some perspective and hold everyone else to the same standard. You people act like the entire country of Israel is the personification of evil and no population or government comes close to comparison. That kind of unfiltered hatred and contempt for one another is why wars never end.

 

[Costia]

One more point I wish to make. Anyone who is trying to justify Israelis actions, keep this in mind. There are a combined 4.4 million Palestinians living in the area, Gaza (1.7 mil) & West Bank (2.7 mil).

Now let's honestly ask our self a question. Out of the 4.4 million people, how many are actual Hamas terrorists that are a threat to Israel. 20k? 30k? 50k? 1 Million?

Even if there were 1 Million Hamas terrorists (which they clearly aren't), that still leaves 3.4 Million ordinary civilians living in a prison essentially. A prison which offers them no vote, no prospects of any future, no life essentially.

How can anyone defend this policy? You can't punish the majority of population their whole life, for the actions of the few. It's totally crazy.

What's even more sad, that it is the Jews that are doing this. One would expect, considering what they went though, to have a better understanding and more compassion to other less fortunate people than the rest of the world.

Sadly it's the other way around. Quite unbelievable, the whole situation.

The Palestinians are indeed in a very bad situtation.
How would you deal with a situation of 1-2M civilians out of which, lets say 50K are batshit crazy muslim extremists who want to cut you into pieces.
Those 50K have no mark or uniform to identify them (except in PR videos).
If this were happening in Europe/US those 50K would just get arrested by the local police. That simple. Problem solved.
But we can't just go into gaza and arrest them - if an Israeli enters gaza - thats war.
The Palestinians have no means and/or interest to arrest them either.
So in gaza they will remain, and do whatever they want to.
So now, do you let them into your country and let them kill you or do you keep the border shut?
Do you let them import weapons that can kill you from afar (Iran would gladly give them a "dirty" nuke - i.e. no nuclear explosion, just the radioactive fallout spread by a conventional warhead) or inspect/restrict their import?
Those are bad solutions. But they will remain in place until some kind of a peace treaty is signed that will guarantee Israel's safety, which i hope will be as soon as possible.

If you follow israeli media you would see that a budget cut was suggested for the IDF. Everyone here is sick of having to spend that much money on (IDF) babysitting the Palestinians and wish they could take care of themselves (specifically take care of the extremist minority) without murdering anyone in the process. If anyone is thinking that Israel does this because it wants to or because it likes doing this, is out of his mind.
The sooner this is over the better, for everyone involved.

 

[Dude Abides]

News flash: Being an English speaking forum, chances are that your country was founded under even more fucked up circumstances than Israel. For the Americans like myself, we destroyed two countries and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over one isolated incident 14 years ago. Not thousands, or tens of thousands over half a century. Hundreds of thousands over less than a decade. We killed 100 million natives in conquering the continental US. I'm not saying you can't criticize Israel but for fucks sake get some perspective and hold everyone else to the same standard. You people act like the entire country of Israel is the personification of evil and no population or government comes close to comparison. That kind of unfiltered hatred and contempt for one another is why wars never end.

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread defending the genocide against Native Americans. If I missed it, please be so kind as to point it out.

 

[nib95]

Actual wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel
Before 67 Gaza belonged to Egypt. The west bank belonged to Jordan.
Israel was supposed to give those territories back to Jordan and Egypt in the peace treaties, but they refused to take them back (Egypt is 79, Jordan in 94).
So Israel got "stuck" with these regions with no idea what to do with them. We didn't occupy them by choice.

Holy shit, you're still pushing this false narrative a year later? I've responded to this propaganda point so many times in the past. Simply put, even under international law, Palestine was never Jordan or Egypt's to lord over after the war n the first place, by that same token, Israel's continuous occupation and land theft is also illegal. Occupying a territory during a war does not give you ownership of that land, legally and morally.

Maybe return Gaza to Egypt and make them Egyptian citizens and the West Bank to Jordan and make them Jordanian citizens like pre 1967?

What the hell are you talking about? Pre 1967 it was the 47 borders (UN drawn and internationally recognised), and before that it was all Historical Palestine, also officially known as Mandated Palestine or the British Mandate for Palestine, due to the land being under British rule and administration (not Jordanian or Egyptian).

We should ban that article and the picture of the progress of Israels land. As much wrong things costia says, he is right in that the picture is misleading and incomplete. Those two get posted every few pages and don't get less disattracting.

No its not, at all. What Costia said is false under international law. The internationally and legally recognised borders are those from 47. Doesn't matter whether the Arab nations disagreed, nor whether during the war Jordan, Egypt etc occupied much of the Palestinian territory. Those nations did what occupying nations that have won or lost a war eventually do, they leave the territory. Problem is, Israel didn't, and has since continued stealing more and more Palestinian land and expanding their illegal settlements.

This image is accurate, only historic Palestine is referred to as the British Mandate for Palestine, Palestine under British rule.

According to a 2013 report, Palestine now only accounts for 8% of historic Palestine. That's how much Israel has stolen since the borders. This is a somewhat more up to date map.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread defending the genocide against Native Americans. If I missed it, please be so kind as to point it out.

No but there isnt pure fury at thd very existence of America present-day like there is over Israel. And that's all it is. Pure fury

People don't respond to an article about a drne strike killing a civilian by rambling about the Sons of Liberty tar and feathering unarmed government officials, the extermination of the native Americans, or by calling America's existence into question.

 

[pgtl_10]

Think you need a history lesson. Nazi's, aka Germany, does not equal the whole of Europe. In fact most of Europe fought against the Nazi's and died trying in the process.

As for Israel. They are essentially acting as Nazi's did during WW2, but on a far slower and smaller scale. They keep on stealing land, which is illegal in international law, (same thing Nazi's tried to do and for many years were successful.) and they continue to kill thousands of Palestinians in the name of protecting themself (A similar story used by Hitler used to start WW2 in Europe).

Sure some Israelis are being killed by Hamas terrorist, none is arguing against that, but they response they issue are ridiculous, by killing thousands of innocent Palestinians for actions of a few Hamas terrorists.

Their actions are unbelievable wrong.

You missed the context of that quote.

 

[nib95]

No but there isnt pure fury at thd very existence of America present-day like there is over Israel. And that's all it is. Pure fury

The major difference is Israel is essentially colonising Palestine today, in our present existence, in this so called modern society, and has been for decades. There's a big different between berating a nation for it's historic or past heinous actions, and doing the same towards it's current, still on-going one's.

 

[Costia]

Holy shit, you're still pushing this false narrative a year later? I've responded to this propaganda point so many times in the past. Simply put, even under international law, Palestine was never Jordan or Egypt's to lord over after the war n the first place, by that same token, Israel's continuous occupation and land theft is also illegal. Occupying a territory during a war does not give you ownership of that land, legally and morally.

So what you are saying is that those areas were illegally seized by Egypt and Jordan before the war at 67? And then it passed hands from a Egyptian/Jordan occupation to Israel?
The way I see it we took it from Egypt/Jordan during the war and intended to give it back to those we took it from (like sinai). Unfortunately this didn't happen.
There is going to be a Palestinian state in those areas, or maybe 2 they way it looks now. Nobody (except the extreme right wing) here want's to keep Gaza and the west bank.
But unfortunately the Hamas wants the 100% historic Palestine in your images with all the Israelis gone (or living under their religious Islam law). While this is not what most Palestinians want , currently Hamas is calling the shots.

 

[pgtl_10]

No but there isnt pure fury at thd very existence of America present-day like there is over Israel. And that's all it is. Pure fury

People here were angry about the US selling Apache holy land. You are mistaken. Also if Israel truly cared about US atrocities then they should have spoken up. Instead the Pro-Israel lobby wants the US to attack Iran.

Basically Israel supporters want the US to support it and not be criticized, Has Israel shown compassion to Iraqis? Nope. In fact they pushed intelligence to implicate Iraq had WMDs.

Neogaf and the rest of the world criticizes the US a lot. It is one the most unpopular countries in the world. This Israel is being singled is hilarious.

 

[fizzik]

So yeah cut the inflamatory rhetoric people and stop the israel bashing.

I'm aware some people have probably taken it too far, but every time I see/hear some one say this I feel like the onus is on Israel to stop deliberately murdering children. Not on us to stop bashing them for deliberately murdering children.

 

[nib95]

So what you are saying is that those areas were illegally seized by Egypt and Jordan before the war at 67? And then it passed hands from a Egyptian/Jordan occupation to Israel?
The way I see it we took it from Egypt/Jordan during the war and intended to give it back to those we took it from (like sinai). Unfortunately this didn't happen.
There is going to be a Palestinian state in those areas, or maybe 2 they way it looks now. Nobody (except the extreme right wing) here want's to keep Gaza and the west bank.
But unfortunately the Hamas wants the 100% historic Palestine in your images with all the Israelis gone (or living under their religious Islam law). While this is not what most Palestinians want , currently Hamas is calling the shots.

They were not illegally seized, they were allied with Palestine. Holy shit at your mental gymnastics on this.

And no, Hamas is no longer pushing for historic Palestine. They have agreed to the 67 borders on numerous proposals, but it's clear it is Israel that doesn't want it, nor do the government want peace, as presently they have free roam to further colonise Palestine, which is exactly what they're doing.

 

[Costia]

I'm aware some people have probably taken it too far, but every time I see/hear some one say this I feel like the onus is on Israel to stop deliberately murdering children. Not on us to stop bashing them for deliberately murdering children.

The only problem with your post is that Israel doesn't deliberately murder children.
It's exactly what I would call "taking it too far". Way too far.

They were not illegally seized, they were allied with Palestine. Holy shit at your mental gymnastics on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

The resolution designated the territory described as "the hill country of Samaria and Judea" (including what is now also known as the "West Bank") as part of the proposed Arab state, but following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War this area was captured by Transjordan (renamed Jordan two years after independence in 1946).
1949 Armistice Agreements defined the interim boundary between Israel and Jordan.[15] In 1950, Transjordan annexed the area west of the Jordan River, naming it "West Bank" or "Cisjordan", as "East Bank" or "Transjordan" designated the area east of the river. Jordan ruled over the West Bank from 1948 until 1967. Jordan's annexation was never formally recognized by the international community, with the exception of the United Kingdom.[16][17]

So, was it legally annexed - and then it belongs to Jordan, or was that illegal?
Anyway, I don't understand what you are disagreeing with.
To me it looks like we both came to the same conclusion that today those areas should be an independent state.

And no, Hamas is no longer pushing for historic Palestine. They have agreed to the 67 borders on numerous proposals, but it's clear it is Israel that doesn't want it, nor do the government want peace, as presently they have free roam to further colonise Palestine, which is exactly what they're doing.

That's not how I see it.
The difference is I actually have to live with this. If you are mistaken and it's just Hamas PR, and what the Hamas says to the Palestinians in arabic is the truth, for you its "oh well, i was wrong", for me its "oh shit, i am dead".

 

[squidyj]

The only problem with your post is that Israel doesn't deliberately murder children.
It's exactly what I would call "taking it too far". Way too far.

how about electing racist hatemongers?

 

[Costia]

how about electing racist hatemongers?

Like? You mean like her?
She is from the most right wing party we have in the government:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=173680524&postcount=255
You want to discuss Isreali politics? Fine. But calling this "Israel is deliberatly mudering children" is absolute BS.
There are extremists in Israel as well, but they are minority, and unlike in gaza they are not in control of Israel. They usually end up in jail.

 

[F1Fan]

The Palestinians have no means and/or interest to arrest them either.

Even if they wanted to, they can't, they have nothing, no money, no economy or organization that can achieve that goal, due to the decades of being squeezed by the balls from the Israelis.


So now, do you let them into your country and let them kill you or do you keep the border shut?

How about you actually give them a state, that is their own and have UN come in and set it up along with a temporal government, before they can set up their own government. I would bet 99% of Palestinians would take that deal, which would enable them to actually dream of a better future/life.


Do you let them import weapons that can kill you from afar (Iran would gladly give them a "dirty" nuke - i.e. no nuclear explosion, just the radioactive fallout spread by a conventional warhead) or inspect/restrict their import?

Honestly you're delusional. If Iran really wanted to do that, I am sure they would have managed it by now. They don't want to do that, since they know that would be the end for Iran as well. And yes, if you're that delusional then inspection of all imports can be done, at least in the beginning before any actual trust is achieved.


Those are bad solutions. But they will remain in place until some kind of a peace treaty is signed that will guarantee Israel's safety, which i hope will be as soon as possible.

What guarantee of safety for Israel? Again are you delusional? No country on this planet has that guarantee. Extremist & Terrorist will never agree to this due to being extremist, there will always be terrorist attacks all over the world, not just Israel. Again wake up and step out of a delusional bubble. USA, EU, Asia, Africa are continents that have terrorist attacks multiple times every year. You're asking for something that is impossible to deliver by any governments in this world.



If you follow israeli media you would see that a budget cut was suggested for the IDF. Everyone here is sick of having to spend that much money on (IDF) babysitting the Palestinians and wish they could take care of themselves (specifically take care of the extremist minority) without murdering anyone in the process. If anyone is thinking that Israel does this because it wants to or because it likes doing this, is out of his mind.
The sooner this is over the better, for everyone involved.

Sadly the Israelis do actually want this. I mean they just reelected Netanyahu, guaranteeing that no peace process will ever start while he is the head of government. His track record is exact opposite of looking for a peace deal. Not to mention that constant land stealing and building illegal settlements that the whole civilized world is against. I mean that alone shows you that you're doing something wrong.

Actions are stronger than some empty words and actions shows that Israel is pretty happy in which direction things are going. This map pretty much proves my theory.

 

[Father_Brain]

That's not how I see it.
The difference is I actually have to live with this. If you are mistaken and it's just Hamas PR, and what the Hamas says to the Palestinians in arabic is the truth, for you its "oh well, i was wrong", for me its "oh shit, i am dead".

Ah, yes, the Qassam rockets that kill... tens of people and terrorize an entire nation. Just one step away from the gas chamber.

This, frankly, delusion of perpetual victimhood, that the Jews are eternally on the brink of extinction, is at the core of the conflict. And it needs to end for there to be any hope of resolving it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

People here were angry about the US selling Apache holy land. You are mistaken. Also if Israel truly cared about US atrocities then they should have spoken up. Instead the Pro-Israel lobby wants the US to attack Iran.

Basically Israel supporters want the US to support it and not be criticized, Has Israel shown compassion to Iraqis? Nope. In fact they pushed intelligence to implicate Iraq had WMDs.

Neogaf and the rest of the world criticizes the US a lot. It is one the most unpopular countries in the world. This Israel is being singled is hilarious.

I am not talking about the Israeli supporters. The critics on this board scare the shit out of me. A right wing extremist commits an act of terrorism unaffiliated with the government, and in faxt, condemned by the government, and the first page of this thread is riddled with posts like these:

Ah Israel, one of the leading and consistent murderer's of children in the Middle East.

Fucking terrorist state

Israelis, masters of state sponsored terrorism.

God, the day an Arab country declared war on Israel they'll have more volunteers than they know what to do with. Arabs really really really hate that cancer of a country.

Look, that country didn't have much right to exist in the first place. It was the western powers that just said "eh, this is now Israel because the bible said that it was a two thousand years ago.", ignoring who actually lived the last two thousand years there. The jews definitly deserved to get protection from the thousands of hate and racism/relgious hate against them, but just pushing Israel in there was wrong.Israel wouldn't be there in the first place without the western support. The jewish god didn't threw weaponry out of the sky or gave jewish refugees the power to punch tanks with their bare fists. I think.

Dammit! ;_;

This World sucks. I hate how a terrible state like Israel goes unscathed from international communities.


Yup.

You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

 

[Costia]

Even if they wanted to, they can't, they have nothing, no money, no economy or organization that can achieve that goal, due to the decades of being squeezed by the balls from the Israelis.

I think they can't as well.

How about you actually give them a state, that is their own and have UN come in and set it up along with a temporal government, before they can set up their own government. I would bet 99% of Palestinians would take that deal, which would enable them to actually dream of a better future/life.

The problem is 99% of the palestinians aren't the ones in charge - just like you said yourself in the previous quote. They couldn't get rid of hamas even if they wanted to.

Honestly you're delusional. If Iran really wanted to do that, I am sure they would have managed it by now. They don't want to do that, since they know that would be the end for Iran as well. And yes, if you're that delusional then inspection of all imports can be done, at least in the beginning before any actual trust is achieved.

I went overboard with the example to make a point. They mostly (try to) import long range conventional missiles and anti aircraft ones. This can be stopped by inspections. Those are quite big...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Affair

What guarantee of safety for Israel? Again are you delusional? No country on this planet has that guarantee. Extremist & Terrorist will never agree to this due to being extremist, there will always be terrorist attacks all over the world, not just Israel. Again wake up and step out of a delusional bubble. USA, EU, Asia, Africa are continents that have terrorist attacks multiple times every year. You're asking for something that is impossible to deliver by any governments in this world.

I am not asking for a 100% guarantee of safety. I want a guarantee that a rocket doesn't fall in my backyard for the next 10-20 years. Most governments seem to be able do deliver that to their citizens.

Sadly the Israelis do actually want this. I mean they just reelected Netanyahu, guaranteeing that no peace process will ever start while he is the head of government. His track record is exact opposite of looking for a peace deal. Not to mention that constant land stealing and building illegal settlements that the whole civilized world is against. I mean that alone shows you that you're doing something wrong.

He's an ass. He's very close to being gone though, he has only 61 out of 120 parliament members in his coalition.

I find this sentiment very hypocritical. It's easy to say when it's not your house (that your family has been living in for decades/centuries) that's being bulldozed for settlers, and it's not your relatives being bombed and killed in the name of harming Hamas.

I mentioned multiple times that i think the Palestinians are in a very bad situation (for example my agreement at the start of this post). So what's the hypocritical part is exactly?

Edit: Here is another scary thought to ponder about: Currently ISIS allies are starting to operate in gaza. Apparently Hamas isn't extremist enough for them, so they might overthrow Hamas in the long run if they get enough financial support from foreign countries that don't like Israel. Ah. The joys of living in Israel. Seeing your enemy fall just to be replaced by a worse one. (/s)

 

[m_shortpants]

I find this sentiment very hypocritical. It's easy to say when it's not your house that's getting hit by a rocket, and it's not your relatives that are getting injured.

I find this sentiment very hypocritical. It's easy to say when it's not your house (that your family has been living in for decades/centuries) that's being bulldozed for settlers, and it's not your relatives being bombed and killed in the name of harming Hamas.

 

[KingK]

I am not talking about the Israeli supporters. The critics on this board scare the shit out of me. A right wing extremist commits an act of terrorism unaffiliated with the government, and in faxt, condemned by the government, and the first page of this thread is riddled with posts like these:













You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

The government's condemnation is laughably hypocritical to the point that it's not worth taking seriously. Especially when that same government pushes for settlements and spews racist, inflammatory rhetoric that directly leads to shit like this happening, and they rarely pursue the perpetrators seriously while when the roles are reversed, thousands of innocents and children are buried in bombs and rubble.

Stop making it personal or implying we're all anti-semites. You sound like one of those #notallcops fuckers coming in and talking about "one bad apple" and i know you're better than that. Are you seriously going to claim that everything the state of Israel has done has nothing to do with this, or that criticism of the government is unwarranted in this situation?

 

[F1Fan]

The problem is 99% of the palestinians aren't the ones in charge - just like you said yourself in the previous quote. They couldn't get rid of hamas even if they wanted to.

If an actual peace deal was achieve with Palestinian state, like I mentioned in my previous post, Hamas would have to stop attacking, otherwise they would totally lose all the support that they have from almost every Palestinian and they would almost seize to exist and an actual Palestinian government would then have actual resources to put Hamas away them self, if they continued.

The reason why Hamas has actual support is due to decades worsening conditions, where politics for Palestinians has not achieved anything, so they resort to violence.

I went overboard with the example to make a point. They mostly (try to) import long range conventional missiles and anti aircraft ones. This can be stopped by inspections. Those are quite big...

I am not asking for a 100% guarantee of safety. I want a guarantee that a rocket doesn't fall in my backyard for the next 10-20 years. Most governments seem to be able do deliver that to their citizens.

At the end of the day, a rocket is just a delivery mechanism, which delivers a bomb. All governments cannot deliver a promise that there won't be any more bombs. There is no difference between a rocket or a large bomb placed in a van, which takes out multiple people. So no, most governments don't deliver that to their citizens.

Speaking of rockets, I had a look at some statistics, and I have to say, this excuse you guys are using to justify your actions seems somewhat baseless. Many other western countries suffer equal or more killed civilians than Israel, and most of them don't respond anywhere near as severe as Israel. I do acknowledge that it must be terrible to live with a fear of a rocket hitting you, but the likely chance of that happening and in the process killing is unlikely.

2014 - 8 killed & 60 injured from rocket attacks. Israel responds by killing 1,663 & 9,713 injured.

2013 - 0 killed & 0 injured from rocket attacks. Israel responds by killing 1 & 0 injured.

2012 - 6 killed & 69 injured from rocket attacks. Israel responds by killing 41 & 54 injured.

2011 - 3 killed & 46 injured from rocket attacks. Israel responds by killing 40 & 62 injured.

2010 - 2 killed & 5 injured from rocket attacks. Israel responds by killing 17 & 31 injured.

LINK

For perspective, 19 killed civilians since 2010. France last year alone had 17 civilians killed in the Charlie Hebdo & grocery store shootings. I don't remember France then going on a killing spree after that. They showed some maturity and acted like adults, something the Israeli government can learn from.

He's an ass. He's very close to being gone though, he has only 61 out of 120 parliament members in his coalition.

He is an ass, but that doesn't change the fact that this is now his 4th term in power, if I can remember correctly!. There must be something the average Israeli likes about him, his government and his policies. Policies that do not encourage peace but further suffering of the Palestinian people and further wars

 

[Crash Station]

The government's condemnation is laughably hypocritical to the point that it's not worth taking seriously. Especially when that same government pushes for settlements and spews racist, inflammatory rhetoric that directly leads to shit like this happening, and they rarely pursue the perpetrators seriously while when the roles are reversed, thousands of innocents and children are buried in bombs and rubble.

Stop making it personal or implying we're all anti-semites. You sound like one of those #notallcops fuckers coming in and talking about "one bad apple" and i know you're better than that. Are you seriously going to claim that everything the state of Israel has done has nothing to do with this, or that criticism of the government is unwarranted in this situation?

That doesn't really address his point of people criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association, which people absolutely do even if you ignore the government. The lunatics watching bombs go off and cheering do not make up the majority of the country. Even the people that voted for Bibi do not make up a majority of the country.

 

[Walpurgis]

You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

Don't do this.

 

[Baki]

... (words)...

What's your opinion on illegal settlements?

 

[Buzzati]

You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

*rolls eyes*

 

[Costia]

If an actual peace deal was achieve with Palestinian state, like I mentioned in my previous post, Hamas would have to stop attacking, otherwise they would totally lose all the support that they have from almost every Palestinian and they would almost seize to exist and an actual Palestinian government would then have actual resources to put Hamas away them self, if they continued.

The reason why Hamas has actual support is due to decades worsening conditions, where politics for Palestinians has not achieved anything, so they resort to violence.

I don't think that Hamas needs the Palestinian's support as long as they have the weapons and the money from foreign countries. (Which might be currently changing, I heard they were loosing financial support from Iran)

At the end of the day, a rocket is just a delivery mechanism, which delivers a bomb. All governments cannot deliver a promise that there won't be any more bombs. There is no difference between a rocket or a large bomb placed in a van, which takes out multiple people. So no, most governments don't deliver that to their citizens.
Speaking of rockets, I had a look at some statistics, and I have to say, this fear and excuse you guys are using to justify your actions seems somewhat baseless. Many other western countries suffer equal or more killed civilians than Israel, and most of them don't respond anywhere near as severe as Israel. ...
LINK
For perspective, 19 killed civilians since 2010. France last year alone had 17 civilians killed in the Charlie Hebdo & grocery store shootings. I don't remember France then going on a killing spree after that. They showed some maturity and acted like adults, something the Israeli government can learn from.

The difference is that those weren't carried out by the acting government of a country.
If the shooter would have been a part of deliberate attack on France by a foreign country I am sure there would have been a war.
And not after 19 people have died, but right after the first rocket that hit French soil. Even with 0 casualties.
I mean do you think that if one of the countries (or even gaza/west bank) in the middle east fired a rocket at France, with 0 casualties, the French government would just let it slide?

He is an ass, but that doesn't change the fact that this is now his 4th term in power, if I can remember correctly!. There must be something the average Israeli likes about him, his government and his policies.

What they like is him being an ass, that's an advantage when you have to negotiate with Hamas.

What's your opinion on illegal settlements?

Should be gone.

 

[Baki]

How about stop building settlements?

How about stop bulldozing houses and farms?

How about stop brainwashing your people to hate Arabs?

How about stop overexaggerating every response to any perceived threat?

How about actually obeying the laws of war and not targeting civilian areas and even shelters when carrying out said overexaggerated response?

You say that Israel is doing the best it can but you fail to realize that Hamas is a RESPONSE to what Israel has been doing. If Israel WAS doing the best it could, there wouldn't even be a Hamas. Hamas is also relatively recent compared to the founding of Israel. What is your excuse for what was going on before then? What is your excuse for what Israel was doing before the suicide bombings began?

Agreed.

The mental gymnastics some people make to justify Israel's abuse of power.

 

[nib95]

That doesn't really address his point of people criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association, which people absolutely do even if you ignore the government. The lunatics watching bombs go off and cheering do not make up the majority of the country. Even the people that voted for Bibi do not make up a majority of the country.

This happens with every single country and similar incidents. When a School or police shooting occurs in the US, people say America is a fucked up place. When Saudi Arabia has human rights violations or whatever else, they call it a backwards country. When Israel continuously colonises another state, people call it a disgusting nation. When racism occurs in Florida, people insult the state for it. I think it's a given that when people say these things they are not referring to each and every single person living in these said places, rather the governments or persons of power, or those with a hand in it, in a general and simplified summation for the purposes of broad condemnation.

 

[Baki]

Should be gone.

I don't think your government intends to stop this anytime soon.

What do you suggest Palestinian people do?

What do you plan to do as an Israeli citizen regarding this clear injustice?

 

[TheStruggler]

You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

well ever since the bombings I believe last summer and not saying the whole Israeli population supported it but when you have some take their couches outside and watch the death upon thousands and thousands of people that will not led up I can see why some people may label the Israeli government as a terrorist organisation as well as the destruction of Palestinian buildings, and them feeling imprisoned every day kind of makes you turn your head sideways and wonder why.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Is there any chance whoever did this will be arrested, tried, and found guilty?

 

[F1Fan]

I don't think that Hamas needs the Palestinian's support as long as they have the weapons and the money from foreign countries. (Which might be currently changing, I heard they were loosing financial support from Iran)

Without an actual support, they cannot exist. Who would join them, to replace the killed members of the group? With no support, within a decade they would cease to exist, or be so small they would be almost no threat at all.

The difference is that those weren't carried out by the acting government of a country.
If the shooter would have been a part of deliberate attack on France by a foreign country I am sure there would have been a war.

I am sorry, but the current problems are not being facilitated by the PLO but by Hamas, which are not in government? (If I have my facts correct...) In fact it's hard calling anything a government when they don't actually have a state to call their own.

As for France, I am sure there would not have been a war. No government that is sensible, starts a war with another country due to a terrorism attack of such small scale. I am not 100% sure but weren't the Charlie Hedbo attacks carried out by ISIS agents?. If you're argument is correct, France should by now have a whole army in Syria...

What they like is him being an ass, that's an advantage when you have to negotiate with Hamas.

What negotiation? There is none and there never will be any meaningful while he is in charge. Some of the stuff that he said prior to the election were scary to the extreme. Total racist paranoia, which in the end won him the election....Just face the facts, majority of Israelis like his warmongering policies, that's why they elected him for the 4th time.

 

[squidyj]

Like? You mean like her?
She is from the most right wing party we have in the government:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=173680524&postcount=255
You want to discuss Isreali politics? Fine. But calling this "Israel is deliberatly mudering children" is absolute BS.
There are extremists in Israel as well, but they are minority, and unlike in gaza they are not in control of Israel. They usually end up in jail.

My position is that Jewish Home and the far right religious parties are extremist, are not in the minority and are to some degree in control when you consider that they're who Netanyahu had to pander to and align himself with in order to form a government, and that Ayelet Shaked's response is troubling insofar as she seems to put some effort into sheltering the radical far right and makes sure that readers do not forget about 'both sides' or those who 'engrave violence on their flags'. In this she seems to find it impossible to condemn these violent attacks on their own merit.

It reads like a carefully constructed political message that bleeds through what she really wants to say at the edges. I'll be further shocked if anybody from Jewish Home or the Israeli government will actually do much of anything to address causes of settler violence like this. It looks good for them to denounce it on television and in press releases but I don't feel like there's any real political will to actually tackle the issue.

 

[Costia]

I don't think your government intends to stop this anytime soon.

They do. They did in gaza. Didn't help the peace process though. Quite on the contrary, It got abumazen kicked out of there.

What do you suggest Palestinian people do?

I don't have a solution. If there was a simple solution it would have happened by now.
The current "best hope" is that the rise of ISIS and the loss of foreign financial aid will force Hamas into cooperating with Israel (or risk getting overthrown by ISIS). Which would lead to a long unofficial ceasefire and as trust between the parties will go up the restrictions will go down.
I don't understand why people care about the declaration of a Palestinian state, it's just a piece of paper in the UN archives. As far as I am concerned they can declare independence tomorrow. It won't change anything though.
They need good commercial ties with Egypt,Jordan and Israel to get out of this mess.

What do you plan to do as an Israeli citizen regarding this clear injustice?

You mean something like join the IDF and free the Palestinians from Hamas's reign?
Nah, I am just going to post on GAF.

My position is that Jewish Home and the far right religious parties are extremist, are not in the minority and are to some degree in control when you consider that they're who Netanyahu had to pander to and align himself with in order to form a government....

I think they are a minority and the only reason they have any power at all is what you have said - the pandering to form a coalition.

 

[Baki]

They do. They did in gaza. Didn't help the peace process though. Quite on the contrary, It got abumazen kicked out of there.

That's because the West Bank land is more attractive. Not that the Israeli government actually gives a shit about the Palestinians.

I don't have a solution. If there was a simple solution it would have happened by now.
The current "best hope" is that the rise of ISIS and the loss of foreign financial aid will force Hamas into cooperating with Israel (or risk getting overthrown by ISIS). Which would lead to a long unofficial ceasefire and as trust between the parties will go up the restrictions will go down.
I don't understand why people care about the declaration of a Palestinian state, it's just a piece of paper in the UN archives. As far as I am concerned they can declare independence tomorrow. It won't change anything though.
They need good commercial ties with Egypt,Jordan and Israel to get out of this mess.

So basically everything is Hamas fault. Lol. Wow. Do you actually believe that? You do realise your country was built on mass murder and terrorism of the Palestinian people? Surely that has some influence on the current situation.

You mean something like join the IDF and free the Palestinians from Hamas's reign?
Nah, I am just going to post on GAF.

The same army that killed 2000 Palestinians last summer....?

 

[F1Fan]

They do. They did in gaza. Didn't help the peace process though. Quite on the contrary, It got abumazen kicked out of there.

I don't have a solution. If there was a simple solution it would have happened by now.
The current "best hope" is that the rise of ISIS and the loss of foreign financial aid will force Hamas into cooperating with Israel (or risk getting overthrown by ISIS). Which would lead to a long unofficial ceasefire and as trust between the parties will go up the restrictions will go down.
I don't understand why people care about the declaration of a Palestinian state, it's just a piece of paper in the UN archives. As far as I am concerned they can declare independence tomorrow. It won't change anything though.
They need good commercial ties with Egypt,Jordan and Israel to get out of this mess.

You mean something like join the IDF and free the Palestinians from Hamas's reign?
Nah, I am just going to post on GAF.

And that's why they will never be any peace in our lifetime. Because majority of Israelis think just like you think.

How about you guys honor the UN plan of 1947. I can assure you, that will go a long way towards peace.

But hey don't listen to me, I guess the current plan of suffocating the Palestinians into a slow genocide will eventually work in 100 years. Considering the progress made from 1946, the plan seems to be working. I will quote this map again, just to show how the plan is progressing.

 

[Costia]

And that's why they will never be any peace in our lifetime. Because majority of Israelis think just like you think.
How about you guys honor the UN plan of 1947. I can assure you, that will go a long way towards peace.
But hey don't listen to me, I guess the current plan of suffocating the Palestinians into a slow genocide will eventually work in 100 years. Considering the progress made from 1946, the plan seems to be working. I will quote this map again, just to show how the plan is progressing.

Sow now you are attacking me because i suggested they should declare a Palestinian state whenever they want to? I thought having a Palestinian state was a good thing for them.

That's because the West Bank land is more attractive. Not that the Israeli government actually gives a shit about the Palestinians.

Did you make it up yourself or did you read that on facebook?
There were 21 jeweish setlements in gaza. None of them were failing.

So basically everything is Hamas fault. Lol. Wow. Do you actually believe that? You do realise your country was built on mass murder and terrorism of the Palestinian people? Surely that has some influence on the current situation.

Hamas are in charge, they call the shots. That's how it works.

The same army that killed 2000 Palestinians last summer....?

Yes.

 

[Baki]

And that's why they will never be any peace in our lifetime. Because majority of Israelis think just like you think.

How about you guys honor the UN plan of 1947. I can assure you, that will go a long way towards peace.

But hey don't listen to me, I guess the current plan of suffocating the Palestinians into a slow genocide will eventually work in 100 years. Considering the progress made from 1946, the plan seems to be working. I will quote this map again, just to show how the plan is progressing.

To be fair,his mentality is probably embedded into the schooling. Brainwash them while they can.

Hopefully the Internet will change that...create more progressive Israelis who campaign for the rights of the Palestinians. (one can hope)

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Here we are again with the IDF muddying the discussion to be about the larger discussion of Hamas now and not the point of the thread. A toddler was burned alive by an Israeli settler from an illegal settlement. Yet the discourse has been purposefully moved away from that point.

 

[jerry1594]

Anybody else thinks ironkrylon is a Stormfront poster?

Those guys hate jews as much or more than blacks probably. Lol @ "been lurking for 3 years"

 

[Baki]

Here we are again with the IDF muddying the discussion to be about the larger discussion of Hamas now and not the point of the thread. A toddler was burned alive by an Israeli settler from an illegal settlement. Yet the discourse has been purposefully moved away from that point.

That's some posters modus operandi.

 

[Costia]

Here we are again with the IDF muddying the discussion to be about the larger discussion of Hamas now and not the point of the thread. A toddler was burned alive by an Israeli settler from an illegal settlement. Yet the discourse has been purposefully moved away from that point.

That point was settled.. There is nothing to discuss about it.
Its a murder by a Jewish terrorist. And he should rot in jail.
Do you have anything to add besides paranoia?

 

[F1Fan]

Sow now you are attacking me because i suggested they should declare a Palestinian state whenever they want to? I thought having a Palestinian state was a good thing for them.

I am not attacking you. Relax I haven't got any rockets

I am trying to point out your wrong mentality. Even if they declare an independance, its just a piece of paper. E.i it won't mean jack shit, is what you're saying.

No point signing a paper if you don't mean it. Like I said before actions are louder than words...Israel is always talking about peace but they never do anything to try and get peace. To get peace, compromises need to be made on both sides. Only difference is palestinians can't comprise as much as Israel, since they don't have a lot of anything.

It wasn't that long ago when you guys had about as much as palestinians have now. Tough decisions were made by other nations in order to give Jews a chance to rebuild. Its time for Israel to do the same now.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Oh, don't worry.. I know exactly the type of people we're dealing with . The various one state solution, two state solution, BDS movements, "I'm just anti-zionist! honest!" - It would just be very nice if they were all as brave as you and said it outright instead of hiding behind words and ideas

Oh booo hoooo the old tired cliche of "you're an anti-semite if you dare criticizing Israel" or "you must be fantasizing about genociding Israel if you criticize it!" rhetoric.

That kind of thing is boring already, haven't you got the memo? Get on with the times please.

It's the mob mentality on NeoGaf. Just mention Israel and you have droves of people calling for its utter destruction. Despite the fact there is a large majority that disagrees with the government policy. Hell, I didn't agree with the Bush years (and several other administrations), but that doesn't mean I think the US should be destroyed. .

Surprised this comment gets a free pass considering this paints all GAF as one DESTROYISRAEL big hivemind.

Geez some of you people are such big drama queens with hilarious persecution complex.

 

[Costia]

I am not attacking you. Relax I haven't got any rockets
I am trying to point out your wrong mentality. Even if they declare an independance, its just a piece of paper. E.i it won't mean jack shit, is what you're saying.
No point signing a paper if you don't mean it. Like I said before actions are louder than words...Israel is always talking about peace but they never do anything to try and get peace. To get peace, compromises need to be made on both sides. Only difference is palestinians can't comprise as much as Israel, since they don't have a lot of anything.
It wasn't that long ago when you guys had about as much as palestinians have now. Tough decisions were made by other nations in order to give Jews a chance to rebuild. Its time for Israel to do the same now.

It's not that I don't mean it. It's just not enough. So they will have a state. Great. Now what? They are still poor, underdeveloped (technologically and economically) with horrible infrastructure. They can't live on international aid forever. So declaration of independence by itself is pointless.
They need to have actual international relations. Currently even Egypt who were their closest ally don't want anything to do with them. So from my point of view just a declaration won't cut it. It needs to come with a peace treaty that would renew and establish commercial ties between the countries. Otherwise what good will it do to them? I mean, what if they declare independence and then Israel declares them an enemy state , closes the borders and stops all commercial interactions with them. Thats going to be very bad for the Palestinians.

 

[TheRealTalker]

I never understood the anti Semite comment

I mean aren't Arabs Semites too?

If you want to use a word for labelling people as racists you should likely use a word that isn't that illogical.... maybe make up a new word

 

[Terra Firma]

I am not talking about the Israeli supporters. The critics on this board scare the shit out of me. A right wing extremist commits an act of terrorism unaffiliated with the government, and in faxt, condemned by the government, and the first page of this thread is riddled with posts like these:

You guys fucking scare me because you respond to a murder by criticizing an entire nation/population as evil by association. I'm a Jew. Are you going to call me a terrorist, too? To say I shouldn't even exist? If you can freely flow from news about an Israelis actions to such vitrol about Israel itself, what's to stop you from flowing from Israel to all Israeli persons, or all Jews? It's happened to me before. It happens all the fucking time to muslims in this country (America). Stop that

Why are you making the jump from criticism of Israel and/or its people to criticism of international Jewry? What you're implying is that any criticism of Israel is a criticism of Jews and therefore anti-Semitism.

Israel is an apartheid, terrorist state. People have also attacked Saudi Arabia, China, and even the US. That doesn't mean that people are anti-Arab, anti-Chinese, or even anti-American.

The biggest problem that you run into when it comes to comparing with a country like America is that a vast majority of Israeli people have supported violent, disproportionate violence against Palestinians, whereas it's hard to find such a level of cooperation on any major issue in America, be it gun control or healthcare.

Unless you're living in Israel, how does this affect you? This is one of the biggest reasons that Israel gets off scot-free: people conflate any and all criticism of Israel with criticism of the Jewish people.

(not to mention the fact that some of the biggest critics of Israel are Jews, some of them being Israelis themselves)

It's not that I don't mean it. It's just not enough. So they will have a state. Great. Now what? They are still poor, underdeveloped (technologically and economically) with horrible infrastructure. They can't live on international aid forever. So declaration of independence by itself is pointless.
They need to have actual international relations. Currently even Egypt who were their closest ally don't want anything to do with them. So from my point of view just a declaration won't cut it. It needs to come with a peace treaty that would renew and establish commercial ties between the countries. Otherwise what good will it do to them? I mean, what if they declare independence and then Israel declares them an enemy state , closes the borders and stops all commercial interactions with them. Thats going to be very bad for the Palestinians.

What does any of that have to do with people who want freedom from oppression and aggression? The LONGER Palestinian independence is delayed, the more land Israel has to grab and steal from the Palestinians.

And what you're saying is extremely hilarious, considering that this exactly applies to Israel itself, more so when it was being founded.