Yaphett Kotto
Member
Yea, there were plenty of pics like that. People bring their kids and shit. Almost like public lynchings. It was surreal when the news was coming in.
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Palestinian toddler killed in 'Jewish settler' arson attack
- Thread starter Sage00
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Yea, there were plenty of pics like that. People bring their kids and shit. Almost like public lynchings. It was surreal when the news was coming in.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Je suis ne comprendre pas.
What do you mean?
Edit:
Are you suggesting that people are indifferent when roles of killer and victim are reversed between a Palestinian and Israeli?
shinobi602
Member
They don't?
Yaphett Kotto
Member
They probably would if Palestine was the occupying state and had a government that gave zero fucks for Jewish people and has a military that kills more non-combatives than armed fighters hundreds of times over and...
Do you know how ridiculous you sound?
m_shortpants
Member
They probably do, it's just that Israel is an occupying force and when Israelis die, they respond in such a disproportionate manner it's ridiculous. Case in point, one year ago when Israel killed 2000 people because 3 Israelis were killed.
Anton Sugar
Member
Boom.
I mean that when it happens it barely makes it to the local news here, people are used to it. But whenever a Palestinian is killed or even injured it's a world wide affair.
As to the incident it self, i wish the one who did it rot in jail. They are terrorists, plain and simple.
Israel doesn't tolerate terrorism of any kind. The Kahana organization was a jewish terrorist organization and it got shut down by the israeli law enforcement. These guys are going to get screwed hard - as they deserve.
I am from Israel btw.
KurtSloane
Banned
Don't you mean Israeli?
Anton Sugar
Member
Ha. Good catch.
Jag
Member
Not really, they generally avoid killing arab-israelis or others such as americans/europeans to avoid killing friends and family in the first case and avoid an international incident in the second. The US reacts very harshly whenever a US citizen is killed, even if the is living in Israel.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Oh you mean like when those children were just playing soccer on the beach and the Israeli government saw it fit to shell them?
You mean the ones that were killed by the hamas rocket?
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/03/0...-gaza-child-whose-death-was-blamed-on-israel/
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4392976.ece
Keep spreading that Hamas propoganda.
There were obviously incidents where innocent civilian by standers died. But the Combatants/civilians killed ratio is still lower than even of that of the US army.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-raw-data-can-explain-a-big-part-of-the-current-gaza-1609072205
Conclusion based on actual data rather than hamas propaganda on social media:
SilentRacoon
Member
So you only care about what happens to Jews? Or are you implying that Jews can only look upon themselves because the rest of the world turn a blind eye whenever something happens to one of them? Is that what you are implying here?
Holy shit dude get a grip.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
These threads always go to shit incredibly quickly. GAF is really strange about Palestine/Israel situations, which I guess makes sense because it's a shitty situation. Still though, the knee-jerk reactions are like nothing I've seen elsewhere on GAF.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Oh but I thought you said the world doesn't care when jews are killed yet you seem to have found those links pretty quickly.
Stop with the persecution complex and pretending like the criticism against Israel is unwarranted
Edit:
Read the links again, are you saying the kids killed on the beach were killed by Hamas rockets? wow
Yaphett Kotto
Member
m_shortpants
Member
Hey did you know Hamas has a navy? Those kids playinh soccer on the beach were blown up from Hamas' naval rocketry.
He's living in a fucking bubble. In what world does the world care more about the 2000 Gazans killed a year ago over Israeli deaths? If they did, don't you think Israel would have been held, oh I don't know, accountable?
also:
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels
Thats palestinian children...
You think Hamas cares who dies?
Critisism of israel that it allows jewish terrorism to continue is unwarented.
Critisim that the IDF kills indescemintly is unwarented.
Since both can be proved factually wrong.
What you should be critisising is the occupation itself. But that's a more complicated subject. The TLDR: if IDF/israel allow a Palestinian state now - the Hamas and ISIS will take over, which is arguably even worse than the current situation.
I am saying that people got used to arab/muslim extermists and terrorists murdering innocent people in the middle east. But this gets a lot more attention because it's the other way around - a western extremist/terrorist man kills an innocent arab/muslim. Both cases are wrong but people already got used to the first one. A western terrorist is a rather rare occasion.
m_shortpants
Member
This is some Grade C whataboutism/deflection.
There's so much wrong with your posts, I don't even have the time right now.
Anton Sugar
Member
Why are you linking a report that examines a few days in the November 2012 conflict when he was talking about events from the 2014 conflict?
Dude. Even the HRC Report YOU link doesn't agree with you:
.. what the fuck am I reading?
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Jesus.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
Costia bringing up year-old whataboutism arguments. lol
You could do the same for the 2014 conflict as well and you will come to the same conclusions.
But you won't, its far easier to parrot what you see on tv/social media.
Wow. thanks for your though provokiing and deep contribution to this thread.Thread's starting to smell of JIDF
Shuggananas
Banned
Thread's starting to smell of JIDF
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Up his/her own ass.
I see that you parrot israeli propaganda.
Anton Sugar
Member
Dude. Even the HRC Report YOU link doesn't agree with you:
I think you need to cool it with the "you are Hamas sheeple" rhetoric you're spewing out--it's insulting.
The 2014 conflict is widely regarded as an excellent example in disproportionate force and indiscriminate killing.
At the very least read the short version of the un report.
http://go.ynet.co.il/pic/news/A-HRC-29-52_en.pdf
If you accept whats said there, including the palestinian side, thats good enough for me.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Well, here's the thing, I dont doubt hamas used child labour, but I seriously doubt they were forced to build these tunnels which are also used to bring in aid that the Israelis don't permit because of "terrorism".
If I had to choose death by building a tunnel or being shot/bombed and killed by the Israelis, I know which path I'd rather take.
If hamas was forcing and killing their own people, they would lose support quickly and be removed
I agree on the first, but the second is false, there are tons of cases where the IDF has used deadly force when not required
Haahahahahahahaha wow - yes, that's what will happen.
Ok so lets say you don't grant the Palestinians their own state, will they be treated as equals amongst other Israelis?
Its not rare, you've just been conditioned to see western terrorism covered up as mental issues applicable to just those who commit the crimes.
Anton Sugar
Member
I'm rebutting your false assertion that the IDF doesn't indiscriminately use force/kill civilians when there are numerous UN/HRC examples that state the contrary.
Thats a very naive stance. They can't be removed. The aren't a democracy, they dont need support - they have guns. Abu mazen is the elected president, not mashaal or hamas. They obviously dont care, only way to remove them is by force, and only the IDF has enough to beat them (and has a reason to do it), but it will end poorly since the palestinians hate idf more than hamas.
Very funny. But if you knew a bit of history you would know that it's exactly what has already happened in Gaza. Abu mazen was the president, but when the IDF left gaza a war between the hamas and fatah started, and abu mazen got his ass kicked. So now hamas- a terrorist organization (in the US, i think the UN as well and even in egypt they are considered terrorists) is controlling gaza.
Same happened when the IDF left lebanon - hezbollah took over. Hezbollah aren't lebanon's army. The lebanese army got their ass kicked out of south lebanon the moment the IDF left.
They wont. Too much bad blood and history for that to happen. That's why its a complicated issue. We need to have 2 states, but whos can be in charge of the palestinian? The hamas - a terrorist organization? Or Abumazen who cant hold on to his territories without IDF's support ?
(edit: last time i have heard about it , israel and abu mazen were very close to an agreement, all the territories issues were settled, only the security question remained. The palestinians wanted 0 IDF presence, but due to the rocket threat from people who don't listen to abumazen and the west banks proximity to the international airport and tel-aviv - the largest city, Israel insists on a security force to be stationed in the west bank. And the UN have already proven themselves to be totally useless prior and during the second lebanon war)
Did you read the entire report? Do you think its wrong?
There is only one case when the IDF goes Ape-shit mad . Its hanibaal - a suspected kidnapping, and it did happened once during that war. Regarding the other cases - it's impossible to know since none of us were there, and the IDF doesn't share that information (i.e. target intel , non of the armies share that btw). We don't know why each of the buildings was targeted and probably never will. Arguing over it would be pointless, the report discusses this as well. They basically say they don't know so they assume the worst. Fine by me.
Mr. Giggles
Member
The Hamas-fatah war was not because the IDF wasn't there to babysit them. It was because each wanted to be the ruling party to represent the Palestinians. I don't like to use this as a source but check out the wiki link below
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict#Struggle_for_power_after_2006_elections
What? Are you making this up? Again read the wiki link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
I think you mean well, but man it feels like you've been receiving your information from very biased sources
Edit:
Also, we've gone waaaaaayy off topic. Let's take this conversation to the PM if you feel inclined to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005
Tensions between Fatah and Hamas began to rise in 2005.
What a coincidence... Just as Israel leaves the tension between them begins.
You are not wrong, but the tension started because before that Hamas didn't have a chance, they were busy fighting the IDF, so they didn't even try. When the IDF left, they took over.
What i am refering to happened way before that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israe...bollah_.28February_1985_.E2.80.93_May_2000.29
Israel declared 24 May 2000 that they would withdraw to their side of the UN designated border,[10] the Blue Line, 22 years after the resolution had been approved. The South Lebanon Army's equipment and positions largely fell into the hands of Hezbollah.
Yeah, and in 2014 Asad won 88% of the votes in siriya...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_presidential_election,_2014
This is the middle east you are talking about, not canada.
As for on topic - there is no discussion to be had here. They are terrorists and should be punished as such.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
certainly not Politicians
Hasn't the Lebanese border been incredibly quiet since the IDF stopped occupying Southern Lebanon?
...
Palestine is not Syria.
I'm very confused as to what you're saying. Are you saying that the IDF is the only thing that keeps Arabs able to govern themselves?
Mr. Giggles
Member
Alright, I don't think you or I are going to change the stance of our arguments so lets just agree to disagree on the facts surrounding this particular matter.
Thank you. I agree.
There was constant shooting back and forth that eventually led to a war in 2006 (the kidnapping was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak).
Since the war it's been relatively quiet. It's generally attributed to 2 resons:
1) The war destroyed a lot of their infrastructure and it takes time to rebuild.
2) they are currently busy fighting for Assad (against the rebels) in syria
And? what do you mean by that?
It's the same organizations, or allies and enemies of those organizations. It's all the middle east and it's all messed up.
I expect Israel to do better than Asad or the rebels (part of those rebels are ISIS) if that's what you mean.
It's been 15 years since the IDF withdrew, and Hezbollah was better armed and prepared than expected during 2006, which was 9 years ago and long before Syria imploded.
Both point 1 and point 2 don't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
Especially since the border was quiet between 2000 and 2006 as well.
How's this for an alternate theory.
Hezbollah just wanted IDF to get out of land in Lebanon that Israel conquered by military force, once Israel withdrew, Hezbollah stopped being nearly as aggressive.
They are different countries, with different histories, and different peoples. You can't just lump them all in together under some generic 'Arab' label and hope to have any kind of a real idea of what's going on.
He was referring to a specific person from a rather radical right wing party that unfortunately got quite a lot of votes.
The 300 apartments that were approved are a stupid political game.
300 apartments were built, then deemed illegal by the Israeli court and bulldozed. Now Bibi approved to build another 300 which will ultimately be destroyed when they are built and the court reviews their legitimacy.
Really stupid, just pisses everyone off, but that's politics for you.He did it to appease the right wing party since he has only a 61/120 coalition - he needs all the 61 at all times to do anything.
It also puts pressure on abumazen - basically saying the longer you wait the worse your starting point for the negotiations is going to be. The bad side effect of this is that it makes Abumazen look weak to the Palestinians and only encourages Hamas to try and take over the west bank as well.
The problem is Hezbollah isn't Lebanon's army - they have no legitimate claim over south Lebanon. They shouldn't be there in the first place - the Lebanese government and their army should. And those got kicked out of there by Hezbollah.
They are.
I can't.
It will be a very long discussion if we try and analyse the history of the middle east.
What i was getting at is that those are examples of what happened when a strong military presence left an area in the middle east - and it happened multiple times in different locations and cultures of the middle east. And what happened was a terrorist organisation, which was not the local government, took over.
Another example could be the US retreat from the middle east. When they leave terrorists such as ISIS take over.
That's part of the critisim towards obama. Even if he thinks the war in iraq is wrong - leaving it made it even worse.
What you refer to as 'unfortunate' and 'stupid political games' is not seen that way by the majority of the world. It's seen as far more vicious, malicious, and evidence of incredible bad faith from the Israeli side of this conflict.
I'm surprised to see it's not just Americans that have a stupidly simplistic view of the Middle East.
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