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[lenovox1]

I feel like Democrats like to play a little too safe sometimes. people need to get excited about something revolutionary. Single-payer is one of those things that get liberals out the house.

Spoiler

weed next

You can get people excited about legislation without everyone being on board.

The reality is: there's no political capital or will to have this happen in the current Congress.

And

This is the first time in a loooong time that we've seen this on the national stage.

 

[Aaronrules380]

If they can actually get this deal it would be real progress. Bernie’s bill shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

The president doesn't really have any power to make this deal, since the most he can really do in the legislative party is veto bills that have passed or maybe try to suggest what he wants to congress

 

[Guevara]

Honestly, I think stuff like this is a waste of time when there are far more urgent issues that need to be addressed by congress that actually have a chance of being resolved like passing a law that allows the Dreamers to remain in this country (which will be hard, but not impossible to get some bipartisan support on)

I'll admit I'm very tired of hearing about healthcare as the political issue.

I get free, decent health insurance through my employer as a tax-free benefit. So do most of my friend and family. Not only is it free, I actually make money: my HSA is effectively a second 401k. The system isn't broken for some people.

I honestly think we're approaching healthcare fatigue, and young voters especially aren't going to care.

 

[ExVicis]

Seems more about a power struggle between the bernie wing and the Democratic leadership.

Pelosi would rather they come forth with a single payer plan as a strategy. She'd rather march to the beat of the leadership, not Bernie.

I can respect that. Not everyone has to get behind some theoretical bill that won't pass.

I could believe this. Could be the long coming struggle between the two finally developing.

 

[Glass Shark]

Is there any room in American politics for a leftist who hates the Democratic Party but also thinks Bernie is kinda a dummy? Because sometimes I feel like the only one.

 

[JABEE]

i imagine the same way most first world countries manage to. higher taxes on the most wealthy.

This is the only way and it’s long overdue.

 

[Aaronrules380]

When will democrats learn: we don't want fucking incremental change!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

 

[kirblar]

i imagine the same way most first world countries manage to. higher taxes on the most wealthy.

You can't do it with just those. That's the elephant in the room.

 

[TheChocoboCadet]

Democrats are set to take back a huge number of seats in 2018 and possibly even gain a majority in the House. Now imagine campaigning on the subtleties of a tax increase which in effect offers you and others better healthcare.

Then remember that this is an electorate which voted for a guy who's main policy was "I'm going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it."

 

[The Wart]

How dare she not sign on to Bernie's vacuous publicity stunt that has zero chance of passing any congress in the next decade.

 

[The Technomancer]

i imagine the same way most first world countries manage to. higher taxes on the most wealthy.

Taxes on the wealthy aren't enough unfortunately. You're going to need to raise taxes on a lot of people, including much of the middle class. Now in exchange they're probably going to get way better access to healthcare, but so many people have spent so long making due with what they've got that that's not going to be as obvious as the tax increase

 

[JABEE]

This is true to an extent, but any single payer bill introduced with a republican majority has an exactly zero percent chance of passing. Even improving the ACA will be an incredibly difficult feat with the current congress. Whether you like it or not this bill is an exercise in futility that exists more for political pageantry than to actually try to achieve change

I feel your ideas have to be ready for when the opportunity strikes. People have to be ready. The dialogue has to exist and not be treated as a nutty idea that is impossible for America to accomplish.

 

[lenovox1]

My fear is they’re going to run another “America is already great” candidate. The status quo isn’t working.

Bernie should say if he needs wealth redistribution to get this bill passed. Funding should be part of the whole thing.

I know we're four years out, but there's not another "America is already great" candidate on the docket, is there? Tim Kaine, maybe?

 

[Aaronrules380]

I feel your ideas have to be ready for when the opportunity strikes. People have to be ready. The dialogue has to exist and not be treated as a nutty idea that is impossible for America to accomplish.

You can have the dialogue without bringing a bill to congress that has no chance of passing and wasting everyone's time there. Especially when there are urgent issues like the dreamers which desperately need a resolution, but which will be incredibly hard to get one with the time remain in the next 6 months

 

[JABEE]

The president doesn't really have any power to make this deal, since the most he can really do in the legislative party is veto bills that have passed or maybe try to suggest what he wants to congress

They could get him to speak in support and rally his voters for this populist idea.

 

[Con_Smith]

Maybe she's giving breathing room to the people pushing for it since she's so "toxic". I dunno, using some strategy to get the more popular Dems a chance to get good word out without the bs talking points clouding repub channels.

 

[Aaronrules380]

They could get him to speak in support and rally his voters for this populist idea.

I have bad news: His voters don't want single payer. And even if they did, they don't have a vote in congress either. And the idea that Trump would ever rally voters for single payer is kind of hilarious

 

[Officerrob]

I know we're four years out, but there's not another "America is already great" candidate on the docket, is there? Tim Kaine, maybe?

Late summer/fall 2019 the campaigns will be in full swing

 

[kirblar]

I feel your ideas have to be ready for when the opportunity strikes. People have to be ready. The dialogue has to exist and not be treated as a nutty idea that is impossible for America to accomplish.

But it is a nutty idea. You cannot destroy that much private investment and infrastructure without massive repercussions. Both politically, in terms of those companies going guns blazing on the party, and economically, from the fallout of losing that many jobs.

Other countries have single-payer systems, yes, but they were built that way from the ground up. The US's current setup does not resemble them at all, and there are far better models to emulate that are closer to our own in the western world- those countries just don't speak English as a primary language.

140 million people currently have coverage via employer-sponsored health care plans.

 

[Fenderputty]

They could get him to speak in support and rally his voters for this populist idea.

Bernie could get millions of youth protesting outside congress too

Pigs flying and all that Jazz

 

[ultratruman]

People go off on you because Pelosi is a bad ass legislator and your opinion is baseless tripe

Pelosi being less popular than Paul Ryan isn't baseless tripe.

This graph showing Pelosi's time in office isn't baseless tripe:

I'm not saying she is a bad legislator or is solely responsible for everything that's happened to the Democratic Party. But for sure she's part of the problem, part of the geriatric Democratic elite that is refusing to make way for new talents and new faces by which the party can rebuild.

It's not just Trump: both parties have absolutely awful image problems with the majority of Americans. Look at the way Republicans won GA6: "PELOSI! PELOSI! PELOSI!'. It worked.

And no, I don't like Sanders or his style, on the politics I'm definitely closer to Pelosi. But I can recognise she's a divisive figure, and will be absolutely terrible at changing minds or ameliorating hearts over issues like this.

 

[pigeon]

I assume they want moderate support.

I think the problem is Dems are aligning with a compromise position when the majority of Americans would probably love universal healthcare.

I believe Republican voters are going to start leaning universal in the near future despite their leadership not following suit. Eventually the outrageous costs are going to turn them against the status quo.

Takes like this really reveal an almost mystical, history-free perspective on politics, like the world only began when you became old enough to vote.

 

[JABEE]

You can have the dialogue without bringing a bill to congress that has no chance of passing and wasting everyone's time there. Especially when there are urgent issues like the dreamers which desperately need a resolution, but which will be incredibly hard to get one with the time remain in the next 6 months

No one talks about it unless you put political capital behind it. You have to make a stand to get attention.

 

[kirblar]

Pelosi being less popular than Paul Ryan isn't baseless tripe.

This graph showing Pelosi's time in office isn't baseless tripe:

I'm not saying she is a bad legislator or is solely responsible for everything that's happened to the Democratic Party. But for sure she's part of the problem, part of the geriatric Democratic elite that is refusing to make way for new talents and new faces by which the party can rebuild.

It's not just Trump: both parties have absolutely awful image problems with the majority of Americans. Look at the way Republicans won GA6: "PELOSI! PELOSI! PELOSI!'. It worked.

Pelosi was not the party leader. Obama was. Two things are at work here. The first is that this is a natural consequence of controlling the presidency. Happened to GOP under Dubta, us under Obama, etc. The second was that Obama was a really bad party manager (see: DWS, OFA, etc.), and this likely aggravated it.

 

[Aaronrules380]

No one talks about it unless you put political capital behind it. You have to make a stand to get attention.

What actual political capital is there in a bill with zero chance of passing?

Having the discussion is fine, you can rally support among the populace. But this is just a publicity stunt and it's really fucking obvious

 

[JABEE]

I have bad news: His voters don't want single payer. And even if they did, they don't have a vote in congress either. And the idea that Trump would ever rally voters for single payer is kind of hilarious

I agree. not likely.

 

[Htown]

This is not good, we need a unified democratic party or else the country is fucked next year.

So why is the solution for party unity for everybody to fall in line behind Bernie Sanders?

 

[Fenderputty]

Pelosi being less popular than Paul Ryan isn't baseless tripe.

This graph showing Pelosi's time in office isn't baseless tripe:



I'm not saying she is a bad legislator or is solely responsible for everything that's happened to the Democratic Party. But for sure she's part of the problem, part of the geriatric Democratic elite that is refusing to make way for new talents and new faces by which the party can rebuild.

It's not just Trump: both parties have absolutely awful image problems with the majority of Americans. Look at the way Republicans won GA6: "PELOSI! PELOSI! PELOSI!'. It worked.

Your opinion that she should go because she's unpopular is tripe, I take back the baseless part.

 

[PdotMichael]

We don't want to look too progressive.

 

[JABEE]

So why is the solution for party unity for everybody to fall in line behind Bernie Sanders?

That isn’t the solution. No one should fall in line with someone if they disagree with their ideas, but people can and should call them out if they disagree.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Takes like this really reveal an almost mystical, history-free perspective on politics, like the world only began when you became old enough to vote.

This is pretty much the perspective of way too many twenty-something American leftists unfortunately. American civic education is such shit.

 

[kirblar]

This is pretty much the perspective of way too many twenty-something American leftists unfortunately. American civic education is such shit.

"Was your first Presidential election after 2008?" seems to be a real bright line separating two very different groups.

 

[massoluk]

Pelosi was not the party leader. Obama was. Two things are at work here. The first is that this is a natural consequence of controlling the presidency. Happened to GOP under Dubta, us under Obama, etc. The second was that Obama was a really bad party manager (see: DWS, OFA, etc.), and this likely aggravated it.

When members of Dem Party were concerned that the unpopularity of ACA passage would cost them their seats and possibly the House, Obama's response was that it's worth losing their seats. They did and Dem lose the House.

Still my favorite Obama moment.

 

[kirblar]

When members of Dem Party were concerned that the unpopularity of ACA passage would cost them their seats and possibly the House, Obama's response was that it's worth losing their seats. They did and Dem loses the House.

Still my favorite Obama moment.

Rahm arguing that they should give up on Healthcare got him fired.

 

[Aaronrules380]

"Was your first Presidential election after 2008?" seems to be a real bright line separating two very different groups.

Honestly as someone in their early 20s, people around my age tend to be embarassingly naive when it comes to politics

 

[The Technomancer]

When members of Dem Party were concerned that the unpopularity of ACA passage would cost them their seats and possibly the House, Obama's response was that it's worth losing their seats. They did and Dem loses the House.

Still my favorite Obama moment.

That's basically the situation here. That's a calculation worth having, don't get me wrong, but it needs to be done so honestly, not under the apprehension that there will be a groundswell of public gratitude

 

[Armaros]

When members of Dem Party were concerned that the unpopularity of ACA passage would cost them their seats and possibly the House, Obama's response was that it's worth losing their seats. They did and Dem lose the House.

Still my favorite Obama moment.

Problem is that his campaign groups sucked up all the donations for all other Democratic groups.

There was no wonder why we lost so many seats everywhere, when the only thing anyone cared about was the Presidency, and then those same people came back and wondered why nothing was getting done at the end. The unpopular ACA vote was the nail on the coffin.

 

[massoluk]

That's basically the situation here. That's a calculation worth having, don't get me wrong, but it needs to be done so honestly, not under the apprehension that there will be a groundswell of public gratitude

No, this is time it's opposite. There are no seats at all and the cost is not the seat and potentially is higher (ACA)

 

[pigeon]

That's basically the situation here. That's a calculation worth having, don't get me wrong, but it needs to be done so honestly, not under the apprehension that there will be a groundswell of public gratitude

Don't worry, the people who lose their insurance will greet us as liberators

 

[FyreWulff]

hmm

I think this is strategy to keep it as Bernie's bill and not let the Republicans attach Pelosi as a lightning rod to it just yet. especially since anyone that wants universal will likely vote for a public option as a step to get there, but not the other way around, so whipping the votes still works the same way.

 

[The Technomancer]

No, this is time it's opposite. There are no seats at all and the cost is not the seat and potentially is higher (ACA)

If we take congress (and the presidency) again to pass this, there's a good chance we lose it again in 2022. That's not an automatic reason to reject it, I want to be super clear about that

 

[ultratruman]

Some people ITT are acting as if Pelosi is some unknown functionary, pulling strings and cutting deals outside the public eye, instead of one of the most well known and divisive politicians in modern US political history.

The longest serving house minority leader served for 14 years, Pelosi has now served for 10. There are plenty young ambitious qualified and talented Democrats who would make great leaders, and they wouldn't come with an ounce of the baggage that Pelosi does. With Clinton it was the same.

 

[JABEE]

This is pretty much the perspective of way too many twenty-something American leftists unfortunately. American civic education is such shit.

They should really teach kids their vote doesn’t matter and it’s all about how much money you have to purchase influence.

The American political system is a well-protected monopolistic system ensuring the ignorance and docility of anyone who is a class below the sons and daughters of engineers.

There should be urgency to correct the bad things destroying our democratic system, but the power mechanisms in place ensure correction is unlikely.

So, I will dream as young people do.

 

[pigeon]

Some people ITT are acting as if Pelosi is some unknown functionary, pulling strings and cutting deals outside the public eye, instead of one of the most well known and divisive politicians in modern US political history.

The longest serving house minority leader served for 14 years, Pelosi has now served for 10. There are plenty young ambitious qualified and talented Democratic politicians who would make great leaders, and they wouldn't come with an ounce of the baggage that Pelosi does. With Clinton it was the same.

Literally your job as leader is to accumulate baggage

 

[JABEE]

"Was your first Presidential election after 2008?" seems to be a real bright line separating two very different groups.

Because everyone who witnessed the 2008 Election stopped believing a long time ago. It was the last time change seemed possible.

 

[FyreWulff]

Some people ITT are acting as if Pelosi is some unknown functionary, pulling strings and cutting deals outside the public eye, instead of one of the most well known and divisive politicians in modern US political history.

The longest serving house minority leader served for 14 years, Pelosi has now served for 10. There are plenty young ambitious qualified and talented Democrats who would make great leaders, and they wouldn't come with an ounce of the baggage that Pelosi does. With Clinton it was the same.

As pigeon said, accumulating baggage is part of the job as you become responsible for everything your party does in that chamber of congress, because the other party will always be working to de-legitimize you.

 

[Aaronrules380]

They should really teach kids their vote doesn’t matter and it’s all about how much money you have to purchase influence.

The American political system is a well-protected monopolistic system ensuring the ignorance and docility of anyone who is a class below the sons and daughters of engineers.

There should be urgency to correct the bad things destroying our democratic system, but the power mechanisms in place ensure correction is unlikely.

So, I will dream as young people do.

This type of thinking, even if it holds some truth, honestly comes off more as a way of absolving yourself of any personal responsibility for your voting habits and any consequences thereof than anything useful

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I am not concerned.

 

[pigeon]

They should really teach kids their vote doesn’t matter and it’s all about how much money you have to purchase influence.

The American political system is a well-protected monopolistic system ensuring the ignorance and docility of anyone who is a class below the sons and daughters of engineers.

There should be urgency to correct the bad things destroying our democratic system, but the power mechanisms in place ensure correction is unlikely.

So, I will dream as young people do.

Dreaming is fine and all but personally I'd just as soon win and pass progressive legislation, which we will not do if we assume that Republican voters are all secretly yearning for socialized medicine.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Literally your job as leader is to accumulate baggage

Also you don't think the Republican propaganda empire would just suddenly not try and viciously take down Pelosi's replacement as soon as they could?