Dude. Think about this a little more. As mre reminded us, there are groundskeepers who had nothing to do with anything, who probably never even met a child, they just loved to paint the endzones and keep the grass at the right length. And now they're being punished by being told those games don't count. Really? Are they just supposed to pretend they didn't cut the grass? Didn't use the line-painting machine? What about them, huh?
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Penn State football pedophilia thread (UPDATE: NCAA sanctions handed down)
- Thread starter BertramCooper
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Dude. Think about this a little more. As mre reminded us, there are groundskeepers who had nothing to do with anything, who probably never even met a child, they just loved to paint the endzones and keep the grass at the right length. And now they're being punished by being told those games don't count. Really? Are they just supposed to pretend they didn't cut the grass? Didn't use the line-painting machine? What about them, huh?
Can you please stop referring to the entire University? Please refer to Paterno, Curly, Shultz and Spanier and a few others.
Everyone at the PSU took advantage of the institutional coverup. Joe pa and Spanier didnt just protect sandusky. They protected there legacy of PSU institution. The whole institution took advantage of that protection, now the institution is paying the price.
Everyone at least have a choice to move to other school. The kids that were raped DIDNT.
No, for all the reasons that people have been providing you to no avail for two pages.
EVERYONE? The entire 2011 freshman class was pretty effective in their silence then.
Why? You are making those involved look better than they are by painting in sweeping strokes. "It wasn't Spaniers fault, it was the entirety of PSU!"
The report CLEARLY stated it was the CULTURE bigger than the people above. It clearly stated that it was beyond the above and the whole complete culture of PSU institution needed to be changed. I strongly recommend you read the report.
I think we should all stop this discussion. What is a fair punishment in your opinion Xeke? That's what I want to know.
The culture and the administration had an enabling relationship.
Affeinvasion
Member
entremet
Member
It's just football, dude. Sides what those kids had to go through because justice wasn't handed out is way worse than what PSU is going to go to. There will still be home games at PSU the next 4 years.
Good for them. They can go to other school. Too, bad the raped kids couldnt.
Send all that knew and covered it up to prison. Removal of the Paterno statue(which has been done). Dedicate a decent portion of all PSU football profits for the next 50 years to help those who have been affected and for prevention of similar crimes, require banners in the stadium and prevention commercials during all PSU games, encourage all students to be involved in charities helping those hurt.
Sorry if those ideas aren't sufficient. Why not use the money that Penn State football generates to help the cause for decades to come instead of destroying it?
Yep, everyone can easily transfer with no issues. Come on.
Unfortunately despite your insistence otherwise, the entire institution was corrupted by this. Sucks for those innocent of an actual crime, but the institution and the culture needs to be reformed. If you can't see that, you're blind.
Then why is the board of trustees still there? Why have they all not resigned? Why is nobody demanding their resignation?
BertramCooper
Banned
These are good punishments. I don't think the NCAA feels comfortable legislating a 50 year forced donation though.
Also I guarantee PSU will be donating money to the cause for years to come if the NCAA says it or not.
The main problem is this does nothing to address the culture at the school.
I think the whole culture of the school thing is overblown.
Main campus has 44,000 students and 33,000 at branch campuses, maybe 1,000 of those tops are totally in this "cult". I can imagine that most of the 33,000 at branch campuses are totally oblivious to what goes on in State College, maybe they watch the games on TV.
I don't think that innocent people should be hurt because of atrocities that affected innocent people.
Hari Seldon
Member
I hold the people high up in a major US university to a higher standard than drunken alumni tailgating outside Beaver stadium. "Culture" in this case is another word for money and prestige for those in charge.
Pollux
Member
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? The entire PSU community is consumed by this cult of Paterno crap.
I am.
Pretty much. Same things happens with companies. When they get fined nobody boo hoos about the poor peons that work their even though it was due to decisions coming from the top.
Sounds like Penn State still hasn't learned their lesson then. Maybe the students and fans of Penn state should be asking that question instead of bitching about sanctions.
Uh huh. Never mind the torrents of outrage from the school body and alumni after Paterno's firing, the massive increase in donations to the school from alumnia AFTER the charges were made public, and of course, today's mewling and wailing over how this (still too light, imo) punishment is going to affect the football program.
Never mind those kids.
Keep fucking that chicken.
edit: and the athletes - those who are attending the PSU football program now - aren't going to suffer. They can transfer freely and go on with their lives. Sucks for the players who were under Paterno's guidance from 1998-2011, but that's the collateral damage caused by his negligence. If they want an apology, they can dig him up and ask why he didn't go HAM on Sandusky back in 1998.
So. Let's sum up all the arguments against Penn St's punishment, point by point, and see whether we can't respond to each one.
1. The punishment hurts the innocent!
-incoming football players
no problem, they can easily change their mind and go somewhere else. the NCAA would be more than happy to accomodate them
-current football players
no problem, they can easily transfer. again, the NCAA will be happy to help
-past football players
if you look at past instances of games being vacated, I think you'll find that players kind of just shrug it off. they were there, they know the wins actually happened. the crossing out of the wins really only makes a difference in Paterno's specific case, because it drops him down in the record book. luckily, he's not an innocent bystander.
-other Penn St teams
no other sport can be harmed. part of the agreement.
-the local economy
because the football product will be weaker? there might be slightly lower attendance, but the difference to the economy will be marginal at best.
-students
because the football team they watch won't be quite as good?
-ok, students because there'll be a tuition increase
there won't, the PR would be terrible. the money will come from the endowment.
-fine, the other teams in the Big Ten!
there'll be knock-on effects from the team being weaker, but I imagine the other teams' weaker strength of schedule will be balanced by the easier win. TV contracts are already in place, so there won't be a lot of lost television dollars.
2. Those responsible have already been punished!
It doesn't work like that. When the leadership of an institution engages in criminal activities on behalf of that institution, there must be punitive punishment of the institution as a whole. Imagine if you could simply fire the people in charge and then get off scot-free. If you're on the board of a company and that's how things work, who do you hire? Obviously, the person who will be willing to engage in criminal activities on your behalf. If they're caught, no problem, just fire them. They'll be punished and you'll be fine. If they aren't caught, great! You got away with it.
3. Everyone is just bloodthirsty!
Yes, but it doesn't follow that the punishment is wrong. "Everyone is bloodthirsty" is not in itself an argument against punishment; you still have to actually demonstrate that the punishment is excessive or unwarranted.
4. Is this what the victims really want? / But this doesn't help the victims at all!
We don't know what the victims really want, because they're understandably a little reluctant to say anything. Luckily, our system of law is not based on finding out what the victim of a crime wants and then doing that. As for helping the victims, well no, at this point the best we can do is probably to leave them alone, and make sure they get whatever therapy etc they might need. The point is not to directly help the victims, since there isn't all that much we can do for them at this late juncture. The point is to prevent similar occurrences in the future.
I miss any?
1. The punishment hurts the innocent!
-incoming football players
no problem, they can easily change their mind and go somewhere else. the NCAA would be more than happy to accomodate them
-current football players
no problem, they can easily transfer. again, the NCAA will be happy to help
-past football players
if you look at past instances of games being vacated, I think you'll find that players kind of just shrug it off. they were there, they know the wins actually happened. the crossing out of the wins really only makes a difference in Paterno's specific case, because it drops him down in the record book. luckily, he's not an innocent bystander.
-other Penn St teams
no other sport can be harmed. part of the agreement.
-the local economy
because the football product will be weaker? there might be slightly lower attendance, but the difference to the economy will be marginal at best.
-students
because the football team they watch won't be quite as good?
-ok, students because there'll be a tuition increase
there won't, the PR would be terrible. the money will come from the endowment.
-fine, the other teams in the Big Ten!
there'll be knock-on effects from the team being weaker, but I imagine the other teams' weaker strength of schedule will be balanced by the easier win. TV contracts are already in place, so there won't be a lot of lost television dollars.
2. Those responsible have already been punished!
It doesn't work like that. When the leadership of an institution engages in criminal activities on behalf of that institution, there must be punitive punishment of the institution as a whole. Imagine if you could simply fire the people in charge and then get off scot-free. If you're on the board of a company and that's how things work, who do you hire? Obviously, the person who will be willing to engage in criminal activities on your behalf. If they're caught, no problem, just fire them. They'll be punished and you'll be fine. If they aren't caught, great! You got away with it.
3. Everyone is just bloodthirsty!
Yes, but it doesn't follow that the punishment is wrong. "Everyone is bloodthirsty" is not in itself an argument against punishment; you still have to actually demonstrate that the punishment is excessive or unwarranted.
4. Is this what the victims really want? / But this doesn't help the victims at all!
We don't know what the victims really want, because they're understandably a little reluctant to say anything. Luckily, our system of law is not based on finding out what the victim of a crime wants and then doing that. As for helping the victims, well no, at this point the best we can do is probably to leave them alone, and make sure they get whatever therapy etc they might need. The point is not to directly help the victims, since there isn't all that much we can do for them at this late juncture. The point is to prevent similar occurrences in the future.
I miss any?
Pollux
Member
This explains so much...
NOPE.
The vocal minority often is louder than the silent majority.
Most of the trustees apparently were not informed. From what I read, 3 or so powerful trustees kept it from everyone else.
Now we are getting to the root of this discussion.
Hari Seldon
Member
I'm a PSU alum and at first I didn't believe that JoePa should be fired until an investigation, but now that the facts are out fuck him and his legacy. All I care about is that the academics are not affected so that the ranking of the academics does not go down. Fuck athletics, they should just shut that shit down completely. Schools are for learning not for making ESPN money.
Ah. Well, that does probably explain the posts I was basing my internet detectivery on.
Ah, so that's how you were indoctrinated.
Oh give me a break. He and I are both disgusted by what happened. He is a super Republican and I am nearly a socialist. I just don't believe the entire student body should be punished because of the failure of a few.
And if they're silent in the face of all this...letting this vocal so-called "minority" be the face of PSU's reaction? They're complicit too.
I'd love to see more PSU alums standing up in front of this vocal "minority", face to face, and shout them down. Defend the sanctions. Call out repeatedly and loudly for the statue to be removed and the football program to take the hit.
We'd all grow old waiting.
Can be said of most of societies injustices.
Pollux
Member
Your political viewpoints have nothing to do with this discussion. The fact is the athletes have a choice. The students have a choice. Everyone involved had a choice and have a choice and will have many choices facing them in the future. The children who were brutally violated by a trusted authority figure NEVER had a choice.
This can't be quoted enough:
"That's the way it's always been, so let's shrug our shoulders".
Here's another quote for you.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Paterno did nothing, and the university let him because of the power he wielded. Heap ashes on both their heads.
I was in no way trying to justify it. Just pointing out the reality of it.
Hari Seldon
Member
I think the vocal minority doesn't care about football enough to call into talk shows or post in threads about it. You have the people that stupidly donate money to a fucking university that milked tens of thousands from them for a chance at season tickets, and you have the people that maybe went to games while they were students to participate in the spectacle and college experience and left it at that.
Commonly in reality innocents are impacted by the mistakes of a few. Welcome to reality.
I agree. But our difference in opinion is that I don't think that those mistakes should punish those who had no involvement.
We can improve reality.
Then you aren't living in reality. It's an indirect impact. The wins were removed because Paterno did the coverup. The scholarships were removed because the culture helped justify the coverup.
Responses:
1. The punishment hurts the innocent!
-incoming football players
no problem, they can easily change their mind and go somewhere else. the NCAA would be more than happy to accomodate them
-current football players
no problem, they can easily transfer. again, the NCAA will be happy to help
-past football players
if you look at past instances of games being vacated, I think you'll find that players kind of just shrug it off. they were there, they know the wins actually happened. the crossing out of the wins really only makes a difference in Paterno's specific case, because it drops him down in the record book. luckily, he's not an innocent bystander.
-other Penn St teams
no other sport can be harmed. part of the agreement.
-the local economy
because the football product will be weaker? there might be slightly lower attendance, but the difference to the economy will be marginal at best.
-students
because the football team they watch won't be quite as good?
-ok, students because there'll be a tuition increase
there won't, the PR would be terrible. the money will come from the endowment.
-fine, the other teams in the Big Ten!
there'll be knock-on effects from the team being weaker, but I imagine the other teams' weaker strength of schedule will be balanced by the easier win. TV contracts are already in place, so there won't be a lot of lost television dollars.
Pollux
Member
Desmond Howard:
The one point that people continue to make that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is about the players and how the players should have to pay the price for what happened, as if they dont have a choice. You read some tweets and some messages and people say, Hey, remember the victims. Well, I challenge you to remember the victims, but think about the victims and think about how they were victimized. Think about what they had to go through, and this burly coach was victimizing them. Add some substance to that symbolism and they didnt have a choice. Those damn victims didnt have a choice. Why? Because of the culture at Penn State University, particularly in the football department. Now these football players today at Penn State, they have a choice. If you grew up loving Penn State Nittany Lions football and always wanted to play for Penn State, guess what? You can stay. You can represent Penn State and wear that uniform proudly and youll have a chance to get a degree from Penn State University, but, if you like to play in the post-season and with all of the luxuries that come along with that sort of opportunity, then you can transfer out today and go to another university and live out those dreams. The players today have a choice. The damn victims didnt.
Do you think that innocent people ignorant to the problem should be punished?
Non scholarship sports players of all sports are affected. Local business owners are all affected. Academics will be affected.
Then how does that not apply to the vocal majority being left to be the voice of PSU?
Yep. We don't know if the victims even wanted Penn State to be punished!
BertramCooper
Banned
Let's put Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and the corpse of Joe Paterno into a sealed metal box and punish them.
That way, none of the punishment leaks out and harms the innocent.
That way, none of the punishment leaks out and harms the innocent.
Pollux
Member
Desmond Howard:
The one point that people continue to make that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is about the players and how the players should have to pay the price for what happened, as if they dont have a choice. You read some tweets and some messages and people say, Hey, remember the victims. Well, I challenge you to remember the victims, but think about the victims and think about how they were victimized. Think about what they had to go through, and this burly coach was victimizing them. Add some substance to that symbolism and they didnt have a choice. Those damn victims didnt have a choice. Why? Because of the culture at Penn State University, particularly in the football department. Now these football players today at Penn State, they have a choice. If you grew up loving Penn State Nittany Lions football and always wanted to play for Penn State, guess what? You can stay. You can represent Penn State and wear that uniform proudly and youll have a chance to get a degree from Penn State University, but, if you like to play in the post-season and with all of the luxuries that come along with that sort of opportunity, then you can transfer out today and go to another university and live out those dreams. The players today have a choice. The damn victims didnt.
Vocal minority.
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