Because you're not actually responding to what I'm saying? You said: "I'm not even sure what you mean to be referring to about his previous comments." I replied: "Well, here's what I said: "You're saying he's only apologized but not said he'd try to improve?" In previous apologies he's both apologized and said he'd try to improve." Address that point or move on.
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Penny Arcade's Gabe (Mike) apologizes for being a bully.
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Okay...
So, the direct answer to your question, "You're saying he's only apologized but not said he's try to improve?" is "No." I never said that or implied it or attempted to claim it; you asking me if that's "what I'm saying" belies a simple misinterpretation of what I did say.
As far as why I said "I'm not even sure what you mean to be referring to about his previous comments": so in considering the question, "Did he previously both apologize and say he'd try to improve?" I looked, and the answer came back, "No... not really." He definitely apologized, multiple times, but except for an oblique reference to Penny Arcade "continuing to get better" as a result of honesty, he doesn't really make any pledges to improve. In fact, in context, this bit:
Is a bit closer to saying he won't attempt to improve. Again, this is the most substantial/formal of the apologies prior to today's.
So to recap: original question answer was "no," "I don't get why you brought it up" was because he doesn't really say he'll improve in previous apologies anyway.
Finally, the reason I put that little summary at the end (starting with the paragraph "But if you are capable...) was to highlight what I think is a very, very relevant difference between the types of and motivations for the two apologies- relevant to both my original point and the question you asked.
If I still haven't sufficiently addressed your point I can give it one more shot if you show me where I'm going wrong.
Gotta pretend to apologize to pretend you care. Hes only doing this to try and make more money via pax and childs play. Dudes would be broke if they lose thaem. They wouldnt want to lose their mercedes they bought with charity money and selling out to the highest gaming company every few months.
Gentleman Jack
Member
How does he make money from child's play?
Delusibeta
Banned
Considering that there's quite a few people willing to break out the torches and pitchforks if Gabe so much as sneezes, I wouldn't be too surprised if someone's spreading bullshit rumours like that to try to get said pitchfork contingent riled up.
entremet
Member
That's a pretty big accusation to make without proof. I'd be careful as libel and defamation laws still exists as you're accusing someone of a crime.
The last two paragraphs are great. The first two had me wondering if he was just making excuses, but this seems pretty genuine. I hope that he's being honest, and I absolutely applaud him for coming out with this. It definitely takes some courage to put yourself out there like that. Props, dude!
Felsparrow
Neo Member
I think the people here who are being skeptical of this are being pretty reasonable when you consider the non-apologies and behavior exhibited prior to this message.
I'm willing to believe Mike, but I also think that people who are waiting to see if his actions speak louder than more words, posted on the internet, are being fair.
Some people here get crap for questioning it, but that questioning is valid. We all know people in our lives who have done soul searching and still ended up going back to their negative ways, sometimes it's just a transition period, other times it's like they never tried in the first place.
Bullying can be addicting. It takes a bigger shift then a post online to make the change.
I'm willing to believe Mike, but I also think that people who are waiting to see if his actions speak louder than more words, posted on the internet, are being fair.
Some people here get crap for questioning it, but that questioning is valid. We all know people in our lives who have done soul searching and still ended up going back to their negative ways, sometimes it's just a transition period, other times it's like they never tried in the first place.
Bullying can be addicting. It takes a bigger shift then a post online to make the change.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Good for him i guess, hope he stick to his word
I believe that your assertions are flat out wrong. Across the board.
Well here's what you said: "Expressing remorse after a frowned-upon act is not identical to expressing a desire to change as a person."
And my response was: "You're saying he's only apologized but not said he'd try to improve?"
Expressing remorse ~= apologizing.
Expressing a desire to change ~= saying he'd try to improve.
So yes. You did say that, imply that, attempt to claim it. That's not a "misinterpretation," those are your actual words. Here is further confirmation:
So here we see you are confirming what you literally just said you "never said [or] implied [or] attempted to claim."
And yet you're arguing with me because...?
And yet you're claiming I'm the one trying to start a fight because...?
I made a pretty mild original point that in retrospect it appears you have absolutely no qualms with whatsoever, yet for some reason it started you off nonetheless: "I think if there's cynicism, its just fatigue over retreading the same discussion coupled with the fact that there has been no lack of his apologizing for being a dick."
Again, you've pretty much confirmed you agree with the statement--at least, the "no lack of his apologizing" part.
So which of us is trying to start a fight over nothing?
In that particular apology among many.
Do you see what could be the possible flaw in your logic here?
This apology sounds like it would be incredibly difficult to write and then put out on the Internet. I would say it's even brave for the guy to lay it out like this for everyone to see. As I was reading it I was wondering 'What brought this on?' Was there a recent event, was it the incidences of the past couple years getting to him, did friends or family talk to him, was it calculated business, was it a private drunken blowout that never went public?
We probably don't know the whole story and we may not find out. So how can anyone of us outsiders judge with anything approaching authority? He's the co-owner of Penny Arcade and he essentially bared his throat to us. I figure something has shaken the guy to his core though I - like you - cannot say exactly what.
We are in the season of redemption and renewal. It's especially harsh to read so much rejection during this period of peace. We wished each other Happy Holidays with all that such phrases imply but are then piling on Mike when he sounds like he's at his lowest.
Being of charitable opinion is the easiest thing to do, the only thing easier is to take turns kicking someone when they're down.
We probably don't know the whole story and we may not find out. So how can anyone of us outsiders judge with anything approaching authority? He's the co-owner of Penny Arcade and he essentially bared his throat to us. I figure something has shaken the guy to his core though I - like you - cannot say exactly what.
We are in the season of redemption and renewal. It's especially harsh to read so much rejection during this period of peace. We wished each other Happy Holidays with all that such phrases imply but are then piling on Mike when he sounds like he's at his lowest.
Being of charitable opinion is the easiest thing to do, the only thing easier is to take turns kicking someone when they're down.
I agree with you that it's perfectly reasonable to question his sincerity. But a lot of people are completely ignoring what has been very tangible proof that he's willing to back what he says with actions, re: 'diversity lounges', which he directly addresses in his post.
We don't know how it's going to turn out, neither does he -- and it may not start out great either. It may need a lot of tweaking, or maybe not. Either way, it's a huge step in the right direction. Who knows, maybe he'll go there too so he can be educated? Guy's not some evil bastard -- the worst I can say about him is that he is ignorant, and can be an idiot, but I seriously, honestly doubt malice.
A few people, particularly the activist types, decided that he was too easy a target and boy did he fall for it. People spreading out all kinds of incorrect bullshit is why you see him being accused of stealing money from charity (lol), or calling him a transphobe while seriously overusing (and consequently cheapening) the meaning of the word.
At this point, I just think it's sad. We have something that will potentially help a lot of people and we are shitting all over the guy for it.
I'm starting to question whether we even deserve any of it.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
As sleazy as PA is, I really highly fucking doubt they are that sleazy.
I mean just think about what you wrote for a second.
These guys love their charity. It's one of the only things I think they really still care about concerning their empire.
charlequin
Banned
The real fundamental problem with Mike isn't that he was an asshole about these things (I think honestly people wouldn't care enough about him to keep engaging it if that was all there was to it.)
Rather, the real problem is that Mike's business (the Penny Arcade organization) owns, manages, and profits off of PAX, the world's biggest fan-oriented video game convention, and an arguably must-attend event for up-and-coming indie developers. People are mad that this event -- which started out with something of a reputation for acceptance and friendliness -- is being run by a person who doesn't see anything wrong with spreading around bigoted opinions or trolling rape survivors.
Yeah, I lost a lot of respect for Jerry over his inability to do anything constructive during any of these blowups.
He shouldn't. "Man, there are people who mentally are a gender different from their physical sex? I had no idea!" is ignorant. "I I think you call a person with a vagina a woman" is transphobic.
I agree inasmuch as the transphobia issue was a completely unprompted random spot of ugliness, whereas the dickwolves issue was Gabe responding to a (mostly unreasonable) criticism by doing something much worse than the original thing he was being criticized for.
Imperfected
Member
Woman:
An adult female person.
Female:
Of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs.
Phobia:
An exaggerated, usually inexplicable or illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation.
Now, I'm not saying the dictionary definitions aren't dated and shouldn't be changed. I am however going to say that a person using dictionary definitions is not acting in an exaggerated, inexplicable, or illogical manner. They are most likely acting in a manner that is consistent with their existing knowledge and past experiences, and it's simply a case that those experiences have been insufficient to provide them the necessary context to understand why what they're doing or saying is wrong.
That is to say, they are being:
Ignorant:
Lacking knowledge or information.
Now, if you want to say that I'm being pedantic and should understand that we're using the colloquial version of "transphobic" rather than a literal interpretation, that's a fair cop. I would say, however, that colloquially "transphobic" is the lingual equivalent to "racist" and is not a word you should be throwing out whenever someone expresses an ill-informed opinion.
A person who doesn't understand why Affirmative Action has been necessary isn't necessarily a "racist", they could and probably are simply lacking full understanding of the socio-economic realities of the situation. A person who doesn't understand how important the issue of biological gender versus gender identification is most likely isn't "transphobic", they're probably just not educated on the topic or at worst an insensitive prick. (Which is bad, but not a pathological condition.)
More to the point, the worst problem facing the transgender community is the simple fact that most people are completely unaware of gender dysphoria as a condition and the related issues people with it face. Most of them would probably be willing to learn, but not if you go around slinging invectives at every person who doesn't enter the conversation fully-educated and tolerant. Promoting tolerance is a matter of finding people who are willing to listen and engaging with them, not shouting down voices of dissent as loudly as possible.
I'm guessing, based on the fact that Mike (whether he realized it or not) had transgendered individuals in his peer group, that someone actually did approach him in a reasonable manner and explain to him why what he said was needlessly offensive. It probably just took a hundred times as long for it to actually "take" thanks to the thousand people who were instead shouting "fuck you transphobic cis-scum" while someone was trying to walk him through it.
Well, is this really quite accurate after the content of this note? Really, either that he's "running" PAX or that he sees nothing wrong with his actions?
I endorse everything in this post. I am very glad we as a society are starting to reject the prejudices of old. And I understand the desire to move as rapidly as possible toward that end, and stop the discrimination, bullying, beating, and killing of transgendered people. It's a terrible, terrible way we treat fellow human beings as a society. It is evil and wrong.
All that being said. I suspect what we see here is some people are very far ahead of the curve when it comes to trans acceptance. I don't know what percentage of people think biology determines gender - but I'd guess in America, still a high majority. That doesn't make it right, of course, but... maybe an analogy?
I'd analogize to the gay rights movement. We started at 1. Majority discrimination against gay people (using gay as a shorthand). 2. Campaign to educate the public about the gay community (whether through violent riots, the coming out campaign, pride marches, etc.). 3. Gradual acceptance of the gay community in the face of violent, bitter opposition (recall states passing gay marriage bans in the far off time of the 2000's.) 4. Just now starting to get to be majority acceptance of the gay community (still not equality), 5. Just now getting to public castigation of people who insult gays (still met by bitter opposition - see Chik Fil A, Duck Dude. And of course there is still massive discrimination everywhere).
I think in the case of transgender equality, some people are skipping to step 5 - i.e., calling people transphobic for saying that gender is determined by sexual organs. I just don't think that is... fair isn't the right word, but it's the closest word I can think of, in the absence of any meaningful public understanding of the issue.
Analogies can be very imprecise, so it's always a risk making one. But it's kinda like, I really don't like when people play "Cowboys and Indians." I think they are perpetuating terrible, harmful stereotypes that lack any bearing in history. But I don't think those people are racist, or Native American phobic. I think they really just don't know any better.
To write something like that is actually extremely difficult and can actually take a lot out of you. It's hard to look deep inside and realize that things about you are just messed up but the problem is that once you realize that, it hurts a hell of a lot.
People think that once you realize it, you are over the hump and it will get better. No, not at all. It gets worse before it gets better.
I really liked his letter of apology. That actually took guts, not just to the community, but to himself.
Good on him.
People think that once you realize it, you are over the hump and it will get better. No, not at all. It gets worse before it gets better.
I really liked his letter of apology. That actually took guts, not just to the community, but to himself.
Good on him.
CapNBritain
Member
I love this quote, and as an aside,I think it also applies to all the current social criticism of videogames that has popped up lately. Videogames are at square 1 and people are treating them like their at square 5. People like Gabe are caught up in it, and react in poor, but human, ways.
so they care less about the comic strip that they didn't change and chose to disassociate from the charity?