Isn't the problem that he has done a lot of things? That's why he's apologizing, right?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Penny Arcade's Gabe (Mike) apologizes for being a bully.
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Isn't the problem that he has done a lot of things? That's why he's apologizing, right?
biological gender is a tricky, and some might even go as far as to say oxymoronic, concept. There are a lot of factors to consider and many schools of thought. Your certainty about 99% of people, at the least, may be a little misplaced.
I think if there's cynicism, its just fatigue over retreading the same discussion coupled with the fact that there has been no lack of his apologizing for being a dick.
You're saying he's only apologized but not said he'd try to improve? Maybe read his apologies again.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The funny thing for me is, I disliked Mike and his attitude way before it was trendy and he was famous for being a big internet bully to defeat.
It's not like this makes me suddenly like him and want to go hang out. I don't. But I do try to give credit where it is due. People have gone out of their way to paint Mike as a slavering monster. Personally I suspect this is a case where the repeated apologies are "straight". Mike is less a politician constantly saving. More genuinely clueless, with previous awkward attempts at explaining himself arising out of an unwillingness to face what he is.
It's not like this makes me suddenly like him and want to go hang out. I don't. But I do try to give credit where it is due. People have gone out of their way to paint Mike as a slavering monster. Personally I suspect this is a case where the repeated apologies are "straight". Mike is less a politician constantly saving. More genuinely clueless, with previous awkward attempts at explaining himself arising out of an unwillingness to face what he is.
mentallyinept
Banned
This is a very important first step for Mike.
He needs to use the words he wrote as a guide moving forward; a line of defense against his own broken behaviors.
It will be interesting to see where to comic goes from here. Mike and Jerry's brand of dark comedy is their bread and butter.
He needs to use the words he wrote as a guide moving forward; a line of defense against his own broken behaviors.
It will be interesting to see where to comic goes from here. Mike and Jerry's brand of dark comedy is their bread and butter.
Imperfected
Member
Yes and no. I know, growing up in the 80's and early 90's myself, that I never actually even thought about the issue until well into my adult life. If you had asked me even six or seven years ago, I probably would have reacted the same way. I don't think I actually met an (openly) transgendered individual until I was 27 years old.
That, I suppose, is the core of the problem: everyone knows someone who's gay, and that's pretty much always been the case, even if the social stigma meant that in prior generations they might not have been aware of it. The issue of sexual preference is something that's easier for most people to understand because they have context for it, because they have met people who those issues affect and probably thought about it on their own terms without someone bringing their attention to the matter.
A lot of people really just have zero exposure to transgendered individuals and the issues that face them. That's the main reason I'm so leery of people overusing the word "transphobic": I really believe that most people aren't actively attempting to be hurtful to transgender individuals, they are instead actually unaware that there's anything hurtful about what they're doing or saying. (The proper term actually being "ignorant" but that obviously has strong negative connotations since it's usually conflated with "willful ignorance", which is entirely different from just lacking information.)
I really do believe that most instances where a person accidentally insults or offends a transgendered individual can be solved by simply explaining to them in a calm and rational manner why the person in question would prefer they don't do or say what they did. I suppose I can be an optimist when I try hard enough.
That's why I'm willing to give Mike the benefit of the doubt. He admitted that he was pushing peoples' buttons because he knew it would get a reaction, and he's admitted that it was the wrong thing to do. He might lapse back into that behavior, but at least he's got a handle on why he does these things and the fact that he shouldn't be doing them.
Stop being obtuse, it's tiresome.
Umm
http://kotaku.com/pax-will-now-have-diversity-lounges-penny-arcade-say-1485455044
Maybe do a little research first
robotzombie
Member
Which was what?
DrROBschiz
Member
The letter puts into words a complex and meaningful process of self-realization, and spells out a desire to change. I'm happy to see that from anyone, and particularly from someone who acts as the face of some institutions I enjoy.
Some of the reactions here sound almost unbelievable in their malice. I don't expect anyone to simply disregard personal feelings built up from observing bad behavior, but decrying a particular step by someone you take issue with (like this letter) may illuminate how little their behavior actually informed your contention with them. Personal contempt isn't always based on a rational reading of events. And some reactions to this letter seem to not be based on having read this letter.
Some of the reactions here sound almost unbelievable in their malice. I don't expect anyone to simply disregard personal feelings built up from observing bad behavior, but decrying a particular step by someone you take issue with (like this letter) may illuminate how little their behavior actually informed your contention with them. Personal contempt isn't always based on a rational reading of events. And some reactions to this letter seem to not be based on having read this letter.
Your fatigue level notwithstanding, I already expressed what I meant; you asked me if I was saying something else. I'm not.
As something of a complete aside, I'm not even sure what you mean to be referring to about his previous comments. In what I think was the most substantial previous apology there is quite a lot of expression of regret, certainly an admission that he "shouldn't have keep things going," and a vague notion that being honest will help Penny Arcade to "keep getting better."
Some excerpts:
He shows remorse, he definitely apologizes, and he does allude to not repeating similar behavior in the future.
But if you are capable of reading between the lines a little bit, what you will see is a clear denial of- well, first of all, any real personal responsibility that extends beyond "I did something people didn't like, which I see now is a negative." It is in fact a fairly cut-and-dry apology along the lines of "I do not want to relive the negative consequences of my actions." He does not make any attempts to identify the core personality flaws which made him react the way he did in the first place, nor correctly identify specific behaviors to change, nor even concede any desire to change as an individual. The next-to-last paragraph even flirts with "and to all the haters out there" territory. He's still burdened by pride. He does not come anywhere within a stone's throw of a football field of a city block two miles away from the notion that he might, himself, be the exact kind of bully he saw as the target of his own aggression during these controversies.
If you legitimately can't see the difference between that and this, then it is certainly pointless for us to continue discussing the topic, but it isn't because I'm being obtuse.
fastballspecial
Member
He still weazled around saying "I'm sorry" or "I apologize."
I don't get it. Why can't he just type/say those words publicly? It's not difficult to do.
I don't get it. Why can't he just type/say those words publicly? It's not difficult to do.
RedNumberFive
Banned
For this man-child... yes it is.
DrROBschiz
Member
?????
Why is that necessary. The intent is clear as day and more than good enough for the rest of us that weren't even involved in the interactions to move on.
Talk about splitting hairs over something that was overblown to begin with. His influence as a public figure was limited to begin with and putting him up to some weird standard isn't going to give the offended parties what they really want anyways
My thoughts exactly. I got bullied all the time at school but it hasn't turned me in to a mean shit, quite the opposite.
He's said the words "I apologize" plenty of times. Three alone in the preceding apology about the dickwolves thing that I just linked. Probably 20 or more total. So, right off the bat there, you're asking why he "can't just do something" he has already done. :-/
However, more importantly, I think you (and may others) may be placing entirely too much value on those words themselves.
By themselves they are of little importance. By themselves, they are almost completely meaningless, as anyone who has been in a committed long-term relationship probably knows quite well.
What you (I, at least) want to look for in an apology:
1) An accurate, reflective assessment of what was actually done wrong
2) A legitimate expression of a desire to change as a person
If 1 isn't there, 2 is going to be impossible, and if the person doesn't actually believe they did anything wrong besides "producing negative consequences," the apology itself is all but worthless regardless of how many "sorries" it includes.
fastballspecial
Member
The way I was raised, I apologized directly to the person whose feelings I hurt or who I wronged. I wasn't taught to give a reason why I did those things, hoping they'd understand, while leaving out any apology. It just seems very backhanded to me.
DrROBschiz
Member
I dont get how your personal experience is relevant unless you are suggesting a completely different person with completely different circumstances should have turned out the same as you.
We are all dealt our own cards and have our owns ways of dealing with it.
Resident_UA
Member
What did he do wrong?
This is tricky, really. These are called public relations blunders 'cause they're public. The comic was seen by millions, the resulting firestorm by whoever was interested to read. A truly direct apology was never even an option.
If I could ask you for a moment of introspection, did you ever question that instruction, to any extent? While sometimes providing a reason can be equivalent to "making an excuse," it can also be very relevant and provide insight as to how or why a seemingly inexplicable act that caused harm could legitimately have been performed without malice.
Calling what we have here "backhanded" almost seems impossible after reading the words. Again, merely including the words "I'm sorry" doesn't make it a genuine apology by any stretch.
CapNBritain
Member
These threads concerning social justice and videogame culture are fascinating to me and a big part of why I spend/waste so much time on GAF. However, I do think that there is a huge sense of cynicism and bully-ish behavior. I don't follow Twitter or Tumbler, but from the snippets I've seen it's even worse there. It almost feels like our hobby is just starting to grow and evolve but is being held to standards and criticisms that have been been developed for much older, more developed mediums. Although heck, the Internet is probably messing with the culture of movies and celebrity as well, it just seems like videogames have had less experience with the exposure.
I just wonder what people who tearing apart Gabe's apology actually want. Yes, some want more action, less words, but maybe action is coming. Do they really want less words? Would they have preferred no Resolution post at all? If everyone thought the way some of the more cynical posters here do, then it would have been in Gabe's best interest to not post anything. After all, the drama of his past transgressions had died down a bit, and this new step forward on his path to changing has just stirred it back up.
I just wonder what people who tearing apart Gabe's apology actually want. Yes, some want more action, less words, but maybe action is coming. Do they really want less words? Would they have preferred no Resolution post at all? If everyone thought the way some of the more cynical posters here do, then it would have been in Gabe's best interest to not post anything. After all, the drama of his past transgressions had died down a bit, and this new step forward on his path to changing has just stirred it back up.
DrROBschiz
Member
I assume the post is more beneficial for him than anything. Putting his admission to the public gives him a stepping stone to move forward.
I honestly don't see any further action necessary of him beyond what he has already done by stepping down from running PAX.
We don't need people to make grandstanding pushes(even if they are appreciated). Even small changes to how you treat other people on a daily basis can change everything.
Looks like he's at least started to think in a more healthy way. I certainly don't agree with some of the things he's said in the past, and they have made me think twice about PA and PAX.
Having said that, this apology seems like a good start. I think its best to see where he and PA go from here, and if the changes he mentions are actually seen to be in practice, then maybe the affected parties' forgiveness can come in time.
But its a start, and some assholes on the internet never even offer that. We'll see what happens next.
Having said that, this apology seems like a good start. I think its best to see where he and PA go from here, and if the changes he mentions are actually seen to be in practice, then maybe the affected parties' forgiveness can come in time.
But its a start, and some assholes on the internet never even offer that. We'll see what happens next.
Resident_UA
Member
I seriously can't figure out what he said that was wrong. I can't even find anything online. Is there something in this thread? The only thing that I found was very vague conversation that he had with someone about women and vaginas. Was that it?
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
So he has to apologize in a certain way? Some ask for authenticity, some fail to see it and you don't want either. You want a generic phrase, even if it's not sincere. Does it not feel like an apology?
It's why I start to feel bad for him. What is wrong with him taking baby steps?
In a way, many are/were skeptical of their most recent attempt to correct their wrongs. This gives a foundation. You can't ever be sure but I feel confident he's working on something. It bothers me when forgiveness and grace seem unlikely.
Then you need to check your reading comprehension skills.
He's saying "I got bullied as a kid, I became an asshole, I thought that justified it but no, it doesn't, I'm just an asshole. And I'm gonna try to stop being an asshole."
This is what I got from it too. He's coming out and admitting his flaws plainly, and admitting that his behavior is having a detrimental effect on the genuinely good things that have come from PA.
He's explaining why he became an asshole, but is also making it clear that he's not trying to make excuses. I respect that.
If you want it, all can be found here: http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline
Might not be worth the investment of time though. You can view the original comic, consider that he "handled the resulting offense petulantly and with hostility, resulting in a PR firestorm," and that there have been some ignorant (though not malicious or hateful) comments regarding gender issues in the following years, and you basically know everything.
That seems like a fair assessment from my point of view.
JennyTablina
Member
IMO the worst thing Gabe actually did in the whole thing was to make the shirts, that was the one thing PA absolutely should not of done. I can understand being frustrated when people comment on your work and point out things you didn't intend as being offensive to anyone. But it's another thing when you actively focus on that thing because lots of people said it offended them. If your a bit "robin hood" in that mindset, then your first thought is to rebel and push the point. Just...this was one of those few situations where it's really too serious to touch.
As a victim of bullying, I know full well it can swing both aways as much as anything, some people respond to bullying by taking the major self-esteem hit, and being meek and mild because they are constantly aware of others feelings and not wanting to hurt people in the way they were hurt. The other way is by becoming incredibly defensive, using a turtle shell strategy to shield yourself from the hurt, and sticking your neck out occasionally to snap at a few who push it too far.
Both extremes suck, you eather become a doormat or an asshole to people. It's not an easy thing to admit eather way, so hopefully this is early steps of some personal character building for Gabe.
As a victim of bullying, I know full well it can swing both aways as much as anything, some people respond to bullying by taking the major self-esteem hit, and being meek and mild because they are constantly aware of others feelings and not wanting to hurt people in the way they were hurt. The other way is by becoming incredibly defensive, using a turtle shell strategy to shield yourself from the hurt, and sticking your neck out occasionally to snap at a few who push it too far.
Both extremes suck, you eather become a doormat or an asshole to people. It's not an easy thing to admit eather way, so hopefully this is early steps of some personal character building for Gabe.
Resident_UA
Member
Still pretty confusing... I thought this was about 2013 scandal.
EDIT: The comic does not seem to be that insulting either... I'm assuming they were making fun of MMOs. Kinda interested in knowing what went wrong, but it's A LOT of reading
Quadraphonic
Member
I don't feel there's an apology in there. I feel his hand was forced by the charity and PAX. He's a huge liability.
What I read, is that he still wants that charity to exist, but himself to be as crass as he wants, without it implicating the charity. So he's spinning off the things that would be hurt when it's pointed out that he's a terrible human being, so he can continue being a terrible human being and not hurt PAX or Child's Play.
That's good, so there's less animosity towards those things, but he's still got a long way to go before I trust that he's changed.
What I read, is that he still wants that charity to exist, but himself to be as crass as he wants, without it implicating the charity. So he's spinning off the things that would be hurt when it's pointed out that he's a terrible human being, so he can continue being a terrible human being and not hurt PAX or Child's Play.
That's good, so there's less animosity towards those things, but he's still got a long way to go before I trust that he's changed.
Weltall Zero
Member
I find it hilarious how the people out for Mike's blood demonstrate (even) less forgiveness, compassion and empathy than him. If everyone that offended me not only said they're sorry but said they're personally motivated to change their own personality to not offend me again, frankly, I would be quite happy with that.
You may honestly have some difficulties with reading, if those are the conclusions you've arrived at. I think this sentence from the conclusion might make things clearer:
I haven't followed Penny Arcade in years, but I always thought they were insufferable assholes that created an often entertaining webcomic.
With that said, I say kudos to him looking into himself and finding out why his behavior is wrong, and looking for ways to change that behavior in the future to become a better man.
As someone who was bullied incessantly while growing up, I know what it's like to carry that anger and bitterness, and resentment for many years. I never turned that anger onto other people and bullied them, but we aren't carbon copies of one another. We all don't handle things exactly the same way. Mike directed his issues outward, I directed my issue inward. As a result, I became a more passive, introverted person, who was afraid to talk to anyone, whether they had positive or negative intentions. Mike was the opposite, and became what he hated, didn't realize it, and then, many years later, and after much stubbornness on his part, realized it, and seems to feel legitimately bad for it. It took me many, many years to come out of that shell (well into my twenties), and now, I'm a much more extroverted, open man, who is secure in himself, and doesn't hold that bitter resentment towards the people that hurt me as a child. I count myself among the lucky ones that I was able to pull myself out of that spiral of depression and low self esteem.
I don't need Mike to come crawling on his knees, prostrating himself before us, and begging for forgiveness. The fact that he realizes he dun goofed is a great start. The fact that this apology feels more heartfelt and honest than the last one is also good.
I've never once had anyone who bullied me apologize, but I have seen that many of them grew up to be changed people. Not all, but many of them. I think, the better thing to do would be to support him in his attempt at redemption/growth, and if he really bothers you that much, just ignore him. Stop going to Penny Arcade or something, I don't know.
I can't help but feel at least a bit of sympathy for someone who is trying to better themselves. I'm certainly not going to kick him while he's down, even if he seemingly deserved a few boots to the ass. I mean, he's an asshole on the internet, not Hitler.
With that said, I say kudos to him looking into himself and finding out why his behavior is wrong, and looking for ways to change that behavior in the future to become a better man.
As someone who was bullied incessantly while growing up, I know what it's like to carry that anger and bitterness, and resentment for many years. I never turned that anger onto other people and bullied them, but we aren't carbon copies of one another. We all don't handle things exactly the same way. Mike directed his issues outward, I directed my issue inward. As a result, I became a more passive, introverted person, who was afraid to talk to anyone, whether they had positive or negative intentions. Mike was the opposite, and became what he hated, didn't realize it, and then, many years later, and after much stubbornness on his part, realized it, and seems to feel legitimately bad for it. It took me many, many years to come out of that shell (well into my twenties), and now, I'm a much more extroverted, open man, who is secure in himself, and doesn't hold that bitter resentment towards the people that hurt me as a child. I count myself among the lucky ones that I was able to pull myself out of that spiral of depression and low self esteem.
I don't need Mike to come crawling on his knees, prostrating himself before us, and begging for forgiveness. The fact that he realizes he dun goofed is a great start. The fact that this apology feels more heartfelt and honest than the last one is also good.
I've never once had anyone who bullied me apologize, but I have seen that many of them grew up to be changed people. Not all, but many of them. I think, the better thing to do would be to support him in his attempt at redemption/growth, and if he really bothers you that much, just ignore him. Stop going to Penny Arcade or something, I don't know.
I can't help but feel at least a bit of sympathy for someone who is trying to better themselves. I'm certainly not going to kick him while he's down, even if he seemingly deserved a few boots to the ass. I mean, he's an asshole on the internet, not Hitler.
Bingo.
And you have no intention of clarifying, instead reiterating this boorish passive-aggressive nonsense. Fabulous. You clearly love starting out on the right foot.
Well, here's what I said: "You're saying he's only apologized but not said he'd try to improve?" In previous apologies he's both apologized and said he'd try to improve. I hope that improves your comprehension.
You're not going to get me to be angry with you; I don't know anything about starting off on either foot, but everything you've said to me comes off like you're trying to pick a fight. You misinterpreted me (completely forgivable, but that's what happened) and then told me to read his apologies again (which I actually went and did!), and then told me to stop being obtuse (I absolutely do not believe I was). And I wasn't being passive-aggressive; I really was as clear as I could be in my original sentiments. I can't clarify more than I have already except by just replacing words with synonyms which would seem sort of patronizing.
I offered you direct, verbatim excerpts from previous apologies and an explanation of how dramatically different the commentary in question is. Why didn't you respond to any of that?
CapNBritain
Member
Exactly. How is attacking him and what seems like a reasonable and heartfelt attempt at self-examination and change any different from the way he is accused of attacking others? Why shouldn't he just be an asshole if trying to change just brings more grief? It's one thing to be skeptical, but how is that cynicism helping the conversation at all?