POI has always been better than Arrow. But there is absolutely no way Arrow has reached the so bad that it's good stage. It's just average now and bothers on good.
They're different, but POI is superior generally speaking. I just like the characters so much more in POI. And that season finale was amazing. Can't wait for next season.
I feel like POI don't ever suffer from random episodes where character X and character Y are acting extremely dumb/assholish out of character in order to fit a part of the narrative. It's lazy writing and total garbage to suddenly make your character irrational for no reason. And as much as I love love love the Flash - they've had a few episodes suffer from that this season in majorly annoying ways.
Arrow has been really spotty lately, the really good episodes are hard to recall, the mediocre ones are much more prevalent, and some episodes that start off really great fall flat on their face by the end.
The League garbage needs to be done with yesterday, and the flashbacks have nosedived in terms of interest over time. I'm hoping there are major status quo changes for next season.
Once Sarah Shahi was written off due to her pregnancy the show went to shit, I was very disappointed their back up plan was go back to procedural format, the second half of season 4 was brutal, and if it doesn't get renewed i won't be mad...
We did have a couple of very good episodes though, so I wouldn't say it went to shit. For instance, Fringe, a show that was god like on the first three seasons, did went to shit in the fourth season. God damn, it was irredeemable, except for the last couple of episodes of that season. And Letters of Transit, which was a setup for the fifth season. At least that one was good, so the series didn't end on a sour note at least.
They didn't even had the excuse of losing a main character's actor for getting crappy. Seems they only went up until season 3 to know what to do.
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that POI has not gotten to shit, not yet at least.
EDIT: Oh and Fringe was a show that got another season with less than half of POI current viewers. Thought it'd be relevant considering that we still have no idea if we're getting a 5th season.
I don't think they are even thinking of a season 6 right now, and are focused on getting season 5 produced. Or do you mean that one is trying to deny the existence of more seasons?
POI has tons of groundbreaking moments to come if given the chance.
There are countless possibilities when it comes to AI, the fact we have amazing characters that the audience can resonate with makes it even more interesting and will help CBS decide if they want to continue the journey.
I still think it gets renewed this season but now I am terrified that S5 would be the last season unless there are other television networks that are interested or S5 blows everyone out of the water and CBS will want to lock it up before anyone has a chance to steal it away.
I know I have been refreshing the 2014-15 TV Cancellations thread every 20 minutes.
NTGYK, why did you have to get banned now, who else will calm me down?
Just watched the finale. That's the show I'd been missing.
Well, they've kind of written themselves into a "We really can't be number of the week" corner, at least for the first few episodes of the next season. (please get renewed)
Once Sarah Shahi was written off due to her pregnancy the show went to shit, I was very disappointed their back up plan was go back to procedural format, the second half of season 4 was brutal, and if it doesn't get renewed i won't be mad...
Yeah...I agree. Sarah Shahi did the same thing on LIFE (starting Damian Lewis). The show was picking up steam then all the sudden she gets pregnant and has to be written off the show. They had to start over mid season and LIFE never recovered after that.
I found this season of Person of Interest to be the only time it's better then Arrow. This season of Arrow has been pretty disapointing, and Person of Interest finally has a much bigger focus on the ongoing storyline instead of just having bad buy of the week/procedural episodes. The early seasons of PoI were so procedural I almost gave up on the show since I hate procedurals and find them extremely boring.
Yeah...I agree. Sarah Shahi did the same thing on LIFE (starting Damian Lewis). The show was picking up steam then all the sudden she gets pregnant and has to be written off the show. They had to start over mid season and LIFE never recovered after that.
The thing is, they knew she was gonna be leaving by episode 2 of the season. If you think the writers had all 20 episodes after that plotted out for the entire season and then had to suddenly change that, then you give them way more credit then they deserve. They just came up with stuff in the second half of the season you didn't like. It happens sometimes.
Although I will say it's too bad they showed a shot of Shaw at the end of that episode. Now they can't do Sarah Shahi's dream of a shaved head and bionic arm.
I hope that if they're able to get a new deal they can just have another season or 2 with a set ending like LOST (...well, you know) so the show can get rid of the episodic case of the week crap. That really hurt this season for me overall. I feel like there were just so many episodes where 95% of it was nothing but you have to watch for the 5% plot that happens in it. A focused, maybe 13 episode final couple of seasons would do the show a lot of good to me.
I just can't stand the episodic stuff. The show is in its 5th season now, it has the audience it's always going to have.
I hope that if they're able to get a new deal they can just have another season or 2 with a set ending like LOST (...well, you know) so the show can get rid of the episodic case of the week crap. That really hurt this season for me overall. I feel like there were just so many episodes where 95% of it was nothing but you have to watch for the 5% plot that happens in it. A focused, maybe 13 episode final couple of seasons would do the show a lot of good to me.
I just can't stand the episodic stuff. The show is in its 5th season now, it has the audience it's always going to have.
It was much better in seasons 2 & 3 than it was this season.
I do appreciate that they ended in a way that is ambiguous enough that it could work as a series finale if needed. Samaritan not being, at least at the end here, supreme evil overlord. The Machine maybe alive. The three of them maybe making it out alive.
I really don't see how they do a lot of standard procedural stuff next season, at least not with the condition the Machine is in, and with how powerful they've seemingly made Samaritan at this point. Like, really, how do they bring the Machine back online (APART FROM BEING IN A ROBOT) without Samaritan noticing? I really think the series would be better off at this point by being a tighter, 13 episode outing.
The show seems to have peaked with the end of the HR storyline. At this point, the show doesn't know what it wants to be.
Sometimes it's an international spy thriller, with John having adventures on planes or in foreign countries. Sometimes it's back to s1 and finding "numbers" and helping random people. Sometimes it's this stupid conspiracy crap that goes nowhere. Sometimes it's a gang war involving a villain no one cares about.
The writers just need to focus on something. If Samaritan is the greatest threat to humanity, then the show should be about addressing that.
Jesus. I knew you were pretty far down the rabbit hole when you were shitting on PoI but raving about that atrocious Bee episode of Flash but wow, that's the equivalent of saying "Heroes is better than Fringe!"
Jesus. I knew you were pretty far down the rabbit hole when you were shitting on PoI but raving about that atrocious Bee episode of Flash but wow, that's the equivalent of saying "Heroes is better than Fringe!"
You mean that completely fun episode which we saw a team up with the Atom? Yeah, "horrible." The fact that POI has so much better production value, despite the CG gun flashes and sparks of late, and yet still manages to bore me to tears is kind of amazing. Like, what exactly fucking happened this season? Can anyone tell me? S3 ended with an awesome setup with everyone undercover and on the run from the machine and how exactly did S4 capitalize on this? By having everyone do the exact same thing as before, in fact it's hard to remember that they are even undercover since their lives don't seem to affected in the slightest despite now having to "do" day jobs, jobs which they don't actually seem to do. And then at the end of this season what happened? They are presumably back on the run again with Samaritan having dominated and put itself on the top. The same exact way S3 ended. What themes did this season explore? What ground breaking character developments took place? I have no idea.
This is why I consider Arrow the more entertaining show because despite all of the crap and antsy CW drama the show actually tries to push itself and explore different themes each season. The main theme for the current season of Arrow, without spoiling much for others, revolves around a clear theme of "Identity" and the show has managed to drastically change up the status quo, I don't even know how things will go back to "normal" once the season is over. Almost every character has changed, for better or for worse and end up facing their own identity crisis.
Now, going back to POI, no clear theme pops into my head for this season and nothing has really changed the status quo. Of course, the season could have had a nice theme exploring the various natures of both AI's perhaps regarding a theme of "Control." The Machine is a much more "free" AI it merely gives out numbers and threats but does not seek to control humanity whereas Samaritan does. The show could have deeply explored whether or not control was such a bad thing, Dominic's crew ultimately meant nothing by season's end when it could have reinforced such a conflict. Imagine instead that Dominic's crew was instead a much more ruthless and chaotic organization as opposed to Elias' controlled outfit. A return to the chaos that existed before Elias took over. Thus, on a much smaller level we have the Machine v. Samaritan conflict playing out except the audiences' alignment is reversed. We would want to root for Elias, to an organization able to control the Chaos of organized crime as opposed to the much more free willed Dominic. We would then see this conflict play out on a larger level between the two AI's perhaps witnessing Samaritan's brutal use of Control but also witnessing it's results as order emerges from these tactics.
Thus at the end of the season we might question whether or not "freedom" is truly the best option when seeing the results of a much more orderly, controlled world. But, the show doesn't really explore any of that, it dances around the subject, is steadfast in telling us that Samaritan is evil and is perfectly fine with its characters remaining stagnant.
So, yeah that is why I'm kinda bored with POI. I mean for fucks sake Fusco still has no idea about the Machine, wtf! And whatever happened to his son?
Other than POI and S.H.I.E.L.D, I really like Orphan Black and the new adaption of Twelve Monkeys on SyFy
Orphan Black is a unique show, Twelve Monkeys takes a bit to get going but turns out really good and reminds me of why I liked Fringe in its later episodes.
I still have not touched Arrow, or Flash, or Gotham. I meant to watch Smallville about 10 year ago, but didn't. I am sorry DC.
PS The Lost Room miniseries was good. I miss Journeyman.
Do character developments need to be groundbreaking? Everyone developed. John finally began to open up emotionally again, Harold finally admitted to himself his machine wasn't evil, Root realized she actually cared about someone (Shaw). Those are all rather huge for those characters, but also sort of subtle.
Now, going back to POI, no clear theme pops into my head for this season and nothing has really changed the status quo.
POI doesn't work in themed story lines, but plot point driven ones so eh.
Dominic's crew ultimately meant nothing by season's end when it could have reinforced such a conflict. Imagine instead that Dominic's crew was instead a much more ruthless and chaotic organization as opposed to Elias' controlled outfit. A return to the chaos that existed before Elias took over. Thus, on a much smaller level we have the Machine v. Samaritan conflict playing out except the audiences' alignment is reversed. We would want to root for Elias, to an organization able to control the Chaos of organized crime as opposed to the much more free willed Dominic. We would then see this conflict play out on a larger level between the two AI's perhaps witnessing Samaritan's brutal use of Control but also witnessing it's results as order emerges from these tactics.
Elias vs Dominic was Machine Vs. Samaritan on a smaller scale. When the season began people complained that everything seemed so big that what was the point with a city focused gang war? The point was so that Samaritan could crush it in the blink of an eye proving just how petty it was. To Samaritan the lives and deaths of those gang members were nothing, they were ants. Machine sees everyone as worth saving, worth redemption. Samaritan? Not so much...
Thus at the end of the season we might question whether or not "freedom" is truly the best option when seeing the results of a much more orderly, controlled world. But, the show doesn't really explore any of that, it dances around the subject, is steadfast in telling us that Samaritan is evil and is perfectly fine with its characters remaining stagnant.
His son still exists. Safe, leading a normal life. Fusco doesn't want to know what's going on... and that's what's keeping him safe. I have a theory that he's never going to find out what's going on and that he might be the only one to survive the whole damn thing.
It was horrible dude. I love the Flash, and even in the context of that series, it was one of its worst episodes. Not even Brandon Routh's charisma could save that episode. Not as bad as the Everyman episode, though
(ignoring the Reverse Flash bits)
.
Like, what exactly fucking happened this season? Can anyone tell me? S3 ended with an awesome setup with everyone undercover and on the run from the machine and how exactly did S4 capitalize on this? By having everyone do the exact same thing as before, in fact it's hard to remember that they are even undercover since their lives don't seem to affected in the slightest despite now having to "do" day jobs, jobs which they don't actually seem to do. And then at the end of this season what happened? They are presumably back on the run again with Samaritan having dominated and put itself on the top. The same exact way S3 ended. What themes did this season explore? What ground breaking character developments took place? I have no idea.
The dirty trick this show pulled on us is having us think that they would be able to fight back this season. The theme this season has been the team trying to survive with this last sliver of hope they have left, the fact that the Machine is still working with them and more specifically, that they still have these cover identities; queue Root's exit monologue. The season was concerned with stripping them completely of any such hope. The few steps they took forward towards perhaps doing some actual damage to Decima/Samaritan was diminished by the crushing blows they suffered. At the end of this season, the no longer have the Machine as a whole and their identities should be blown completely. I'm not sure where they'll go next season, but I expect they'll begin capitalizing on the seeds they've planted this season to start to fight back against Samaritan. While they perhaps had more power this season, they also had more liabilities; next season, they should have neither.
You have to realize the show has to play a bit loose with the groundwork they laid in the S3 finale because this show still has another audience it's trying to hold onto, the one that considers it solely an action show. They're confined in what they can do and still keep this show as appealing as it is, so the rules around their cover identities are loose; even so, they do a good job of explaining most of these things if you pay attention. Just because Root hasn't been in contact with the Machine directly, she's been getting aim assist and dead drops; Reese has been doing things cops would do; Shaw had a cover crafted around her personality, and even that was blown.
As for character development, there was plenty of it this season. Reese's struggle to trust his companions and start treating them more like comrades was a season-long struggle; that's the entire purpose behind Iris' existence as a character on the show. It didn't just all happen in that one episode with Carter, but that was a cathartic moment for him in that respect. Root possibly had the best development, considering who she is and who she's been. She started off the season as a zealot and outlier to the rest of the team. As things progressed and her relationship with Shaw developed, she realized that she had grown attached to the team as a whole, which is what makes Shaw's loss the moment where she makes a dark realization - the Machine she once worshiped has proven impotent and she has a legitimate crisis of faith. There's a definite schism in the relationship between her and the Machine as things progress following "M.I.A.". She is also perhaps the first to realize (or maybe second to Harold) that they've been fighting a losing battle, and that any action taken against Samaritan carries a threat of retaliation, which is where we see her intervene between Harold and Elizabeth.
Shaw had the skimpiest development overall, considering she was written off, but she had a more condensed version of Reese's developed in that she learned to trust her team more and feel something for Root. Harold had his development in the form of having his relationship with the Machine tested, though in quite a different way from Root. He's always struggled to accept the Machine as anything other than sentient and powerful, but the entire season led up to the moment where Harold realizes that the Machine has been working with them and sacrificing everything so that the team may survive.
This is why I consider Arrow the more entertaining show because despite all of the crap and antsy CW drama the show actually tries to push itself and explore different themes each season. The main theme for the current season of Arrow, without spoiling much for others, revolves around a clear theme of "Identity" and the show has managed to drastically change up the status quo, I don't even know how things will go back to "normal" once the season is over. Almost every character has changed, for better or for worse and end up facing their own identity crisis.
You give the writers of Arrow far too much credit. These themes are beaten to death, shallow, and usually happen over the course of a single episode at most. The show even expressly fails to explain
why the hell Oliver is so opposed to joining the League of Assassins for the many episodes where he's considering joining them; it's only after he joins we learn he loses his sense of identity, but everyone seemed to assume we knew what the hell was going on.
Plus, Oliver is seemingly the only character to have any sort of development. Felicity is just jumping back and forth between Ollie and Ray; Diggle has a baby, that's all we get out of him; Laurel decided early on to
be the Canary and nothing has happened since that besides actually becoming the Canary
; Roy gets a moment to shine and
they write him off
; Thea's development happened off-screen between S2 and S3.
Now, going back to POI, no clear theme pops into my head for this season and nothing has really changed the status quo. Of course, the season could have had a nice theme exploring the various natures of both AI's perhaps regarding a theme of "Control." The Machine is a much more "free" AI it merely gives out numbers and threats but does not seek to control humanity whereas Samaritan does. The show could have deeply explored whether or not control was such a bad thing,
Did you skip episodes? Because that was explored in detail. Samaritan and Decima aren't evil in the strictest sense; it's a ends justifying the means scenario. They're concerned with bettering the world through means that are questionable, but the outcome would be that the world would indeed be better for it. Shaw questions whether this is even a bad thing earlier on in the season; Harold clearly outlines that their stance is that people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not having some higher being choose for them. The other thing we got was the heavy emphasis on the Machine's moral compass, which we learn has been well-established and has been concerned with protecting the people's right to freedom.
Dominic's crew ultimately meant nothing by season's end when it could have reinforced such a conflict.
Despite there being some major movement in that department, if you look back, the season wasn't overly concerned with Elias' conflict; the Brotherhood had a larger role overall because of its conflict with the Team, and the conflict between Elias' crew and the Brotherhood may have taken several episodes to develop, but played itself out in the course of 3 episodes. Everything else happened in the background, really, and it's likely we haven't seen the end of Elias.
So, yeah that is why I'm kinda bored with POI. I mean for fucks sake Fusco still has no idea about the Machine, wtf! And whatever happened to his son?
lmao at Arrow at its worst being better than POI. Arrow at its worst is a 1/10. We should all thank Deathstroke for season 2 by being awesome, otherwise it stand as a generic clusterfuck of mistakes. Don't even get me started on its shitty written romance CW nonsense. Season 2 was awesome though, best season of a comic book show beating Flash S1 and Daredevil S1 all because of my boy Deathstroke.
Both Arrow and Flash would be better on Netflix. 14-16 episodes instead of 23 filled with shit padding, Make them a little bit darker and have more focus on story, and both would be much better shows.
It was horrible dude. I love the Flash, and even in the context of that series, it was one of its worst episodes. Not even Brandon Routh's charisma could save that episode. Not as bad as the Everyman episode, though
(ignoring the Reverse Flash bits)
.
The dirty trick this show pulled on us is having us think that they would be able to fight back this season. The theme this season has been the team trying to survive with this last sliver of hope they have left, the fact that the Machine is still working with them and more specifically, that they still have these cover identities; queue Root's exit monologue. The season was concerned with stripping them completely of any such hope. The few steps they took forward towards perhaps doing some actual damage to Decima/Samaritan was diminished by the crushing blows they suffered. At the end of this season, the no longer have the Machine as a whole and their identities should be blown completely. I'm not sure where they'll go next season, but I expect they'll begin capitalizing on the seeds they've planted this season to start to fight back against Samaritan. While they perhaps had more power this season, they also had more liabilities; next season, they should have neither.
You have to realize the show has to play a bit loose with the groundwork they laid in the S3 finale because this show still has another audience it's trying to hold onto, the one that considers it solely an action show. They're confined in what they can do and still keep this show as appealing as it is, so the rules around their cover identities are loose; even so, they do a good job of explaining most of these things if you pay attention. Just because Root hasn't been in contact with the Machine directly, she's been getting aim assist and dead drops; Reese has been doing things cops would do; Shaw had a cover crafted around her personality, and even that was blown.
As for character development, there was plenty of it this season. Reese's struggle to trust his companions and start treating them more like comrades was a season-long struggle; that's the entire purpose behind Iris' existence as a character on the show. It didn't just all happen in that one episode with Carter, but that was a cathartic moment for him in that respect. Root possibly had the best development, considering who she is and who she's been. She started off the season as a zealot and outlier to the rest of the team. As things progressed and her relationship with Shaw developed, she realized that she had grown attached to the team as a whole, which is what makes Shaw's loss the moment where she makes a dark realization - the Machine she once worshiped has proven impotent and she has a legitimate crisis of faith. There's a definite schism in the relationship between her and the Machine as things progress following "M.I.A.". She is also perhaps the first to realize (or maybe second to Harold) that they've been fighting a losing battle, and that any action taken against Samaritan carries a threat of retaliation, which is where we see her intervene between Harold and Elizabeth.
Shaw had the skimpiest development overall, considering she was written off, but she had a more condensed version of Reese's developed in that she learned to trust her team more and feel something for Root. Harold had his development in the form of having his relationship with the Machine tested, though in quite a different way from Root. He's always struggled to accept the Machine as anything other than sentient and powerful, but the entire season led up to the moment where Harold realizes that the Machine has been working with them and sacrificing everything so that the team may survive.
You give the writers of Arrow far too much credit. These themes are beaten to death, shallow, and usually happen over the course of a single episode at most. The show even expressly fails to explain
why the hell Oliver is so opposed to joining the League of Assassins for the many episodes where he's considering joining them; it's only after he joins we learn he loses his sense of identity, but everyone seemed to assume we knew what the hell was going on.
Plus, Oliver is seemingly the only character to have any sort of development. Felicity is just jumping back and forth between Ollie and Ray; Diggle has a baby, that's all we get out of him; Laurel decided early on to
be the Canary and nothing has happened since that besides actually becoming the Canary
; Roy gets a moment to shine and
they write him off
; Thea's development happened off-screen between S2 and S3.
Did you skip episodes? Because that was explored in detail. Samaritan and Decima aren't evil in the strictest sense; it's a ends justifying the means scenario. They're concerned with bettering the world through means that are questionable, but the outcome would be that the world would indeed be better for it. Shaw questions whether this is even a bad thing earlier on in the season; Harold clearly outlines that their stance is that people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not having some higher being choose for them. The other thing we got was the heavy emphasis on the Machine's moral compass, which we learn has been well-established and has been concerned with protecting the people's right to freedom.
Despite there being some major movement in that department, if you look back, the season wasn't overly concerned with Elias' conflict; the Brotherhood had a larger role overall because of its conflict with the Team, and the conflict between Elias' crew and the Brotherhood may have taken several episodes to develop, but played itself out in the course of 3 episodes. Everything else happened in the background, really, and it's likely we haven't seen the end of Elias.
Fusco still not knowing about the Machine is a meta-joke. Who cares about his son if he's not being held hostage anyway?
Look, dude, it's ok to not like PoI in favor of other shows. But don't come in here and spout stuff that's shortsighted and just completely untrue.
I disagree with so much of that but am too tired right now to really dive into to it. Short version, those character developments you are speaking of are really small and redundant. Reese learning to trust his team and open up some more, that was his whole character arc two seasons ago. Harold learning to trust the Machine more and see it more than a simple "machine," again that was tackled last season. Root likes Shaw, last season. However, I will say that Root had more character development than anyone else by having her faith in the Machine questioned yet even this is discarded after like 3 or 4 episodes as she trusts it completely again by the finale. Fusco is well Fusco.
This entire season is what I call a "holding place," retreading the same ground already covered and doing very little to change the status quo. It's like they were unsure how to proceed and just decided to do what they know best rather than taking any risks so everyone just goes through the same motions ending in a finale that is exactly the same as the last season finale, our heroes on the run. Maybe next season they'll finally have a grip on what exactly they are doing but this season was just a pure procedural snore fest.
Plus, Oliver is seemingly the only character to have any sort of development.
I also want to take issue with your Arrow criticism here. Almost EVERY character on the current season of Arrow has had development relating to the very theme of the entire season, Identity. I made a post about this in the Arrow thread which you can check out if you want, but while the execution may be muddled all the characters have gone through change and experienced an Identity crisis that shakes them to the very core.
The whole Laurel trying to be the Canary plot was not just confined to the Vertigo episode it was all the episodes before it and still all the episodes after. Like, did you forget all those episodes where they thought Oliver was dead and the team was seriously challenged about what the fuck they should do now? Where everyone experienced a crisis of faith about how to continue with Oliver's guidance? And the Oliver's surprise when he returned that everyone just carried on and having him learn that he wasn't really all that needed further reinforcing his identity crisis?
There is A LOT of interesting character development happening to all those characters it just gets muddled in the execution and buried within the CW cheese and teen drama that brings down the show.
And that turned out to be more than I thought I would say, yet still I could say so much more. All said, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I stand by mine which is that the recent season of POI was boring procedural crap with almost nothing happening for an entire season. I'll take a show that takes risks and fails over a safe show any day.
Well, parts of it anyways. It's not a hivemind and a lot of people are recognizing what Arrow has become and what it always was. Only a small group is defending the series with unbroken will, like Phoenixian Viking is defending Bleach.
Well, parts of it anyways. It's not a hivemind and a lot of people are recognizing what Arrow has become and what it always was. Only a small group is defending the series with unbroken will, like Phoenixian Viking is defending Bleach.
I like arrow. It's a good show. But POI is better in every way. It's highs are lower than POI's highs and it's lows are lower than POI's lows.
To say Arrow is better than POI is laughable imo and that's coming from someone who loved the show. Arrow already seems to be going downhill if S3 is anything to go by, while POI has been consistently good imo. I agree HR story arc is POI's peak at least so far - but come on, how good were those episodes? but it's still a great show this season with some really good episodes. Just because it's not peaking every season doesn't mean POI has gone to shit.
I disagree with so much of that but am too tired right now to really dive into to it. Short version, those character developments you are speaking of are really small and redundant. Reese learning to trust his team and open up some more, that was his whole character arc two seasons ago. Harold learning to trust the Machine more and see it more than a simple "machine," again that was tackled last season. Root likes Shaw, last season. However, I will say that Root had more character development than anyone else by having her faith in the Machine questioned yet even this is discarded after like 3 or 4 episodes as she trusts it completely again by the finale. Fusco is well Fusco.
Reese most certainly did not trust his team as much as he did after this season. For starters, he started off very suspicious of Harold and he never really learned a significant amount about him to say that he knows Harold all that well; specifically, we're talking about his past with Nathan and how many other people he's brought onto this crusade of his before Reese. Root, for obvious reasons, isn't very trustworthy. Reese has some respect for her, but he always suspects that she has an ulterior motive (and she usually does). The same could be said about Shaw if you consider her background and how her role in the government closely mirrored his own. Reese being who he is, he's always been guarded around them. The person he felt closest to was Carter, mostly because she was an open book and he understood her more than the other characters, but he never shared much of himself with her. If anything, this has been something he's been working on since the show began.
Harold's relationship with the Machine hasn't been tackled in full, even after this finale; it's been a series-long struggle that he's faced, learning to trust the Machine as something that is legitimately trying to help him as opposed to the necessary monster he believes he's created. It's why we were only exposed to the morality clauses in this season, because it's all very relevant to how Harold is seeing the Machine as the plot progresses. It's been happening in stages and slowly. Up until the finale, and really what happens next in this subplot could go many ways, Harold never pretended to know what the Machine's ultimate goals were; he always thought that the Machine was a step away from becoming something like Samaritan.
Root's crisis of faith wasn't momentary; it was featured at the forefront in the episodes following Shaw's disappearance, then she disappeared for a few episodes while she went in direct opposition of the Machine's requests. Even then, she was pushing the Machine to take action where it would not otherwise out of fear and trying to protect its agents.
And yeah, Fusco gonna Fusco. No two ways about that.
This entire season is what I call a "holding place," retreading the same ground already covered and doing very little to change the status quo. It's like they were unsure how to proceed and just decided to do what they know best rather than taking any risks so everyone just goes through the same motions ending in a finale that is exactly the same as the last season finale, our heroes on the run. Maybe next season they'll finally have a grip on what exactly they are doing but this season was just a pure procedural snore fest.
Again, they suffered some serious casualties in this season. First Shaw, then the Machine, and now most likely their cover identities. They've been pushed back even further.
Most of the procedural episodes tied back to the overarching plot, and frankly, some of them fell flat. I'm not blind to that. But almost every one took a step towards advancing the plot. Also, I think it would be easier to consider this season as part of the whole rather than on its own. Sure, it may have felt like an overlong exposition for what's going to come next, but this series is longer than one season. It's going to build on what it's established in this season, even if they didn't gain much traction to fight back Decima/Samaritan. As it stands, on its own, I stand by what I said - this season was about beating the team back even further and surviving that, despite the few smaller steps they've taken towards defeating Decima.
I also want to take issue with your Arrow criticism here. Almost EVERY character on the current season of Arrow has had development relating to the very theme of the entire season, Identity. I made a post about this in the Arrow thread which you can check out if you want, but while the execution may be muddled all the characters have gone through change and experienced an Identity crisis that shakes them to the very core.
The whole Laurel trying to be the Canary plot was not just confined to the Vertigo episode it was all the episodes before it and still all the episodes after. Like, did you forget all those episodes where they thought Oliver was dead and the team was seriously challenged about what the fuck they should do now? Where everyone experienced a crisis of faith about how to continue with Oliver's guidance? And the Oliver's surprise when he returned that everyone just carried on and having him learn that he wasn't really all that needed further reinforcing his identity crisis?
There is A LOT of interesting character development happening to all those characters it just gets muddled in the execution and buried within the CW cheese and teen drama that brings down the show.
I stand by my Arrow criticism. You're right, Laurel's plot wasn't confined to a single episode, but it was single-minded in nearly every way.
The episodes that followed Oliver's supposed death were a great opportunity to explore some of these things that you're talking about, but instead they just resolved to carry on Oliver's mission and went to deal with Brick. The writers didn't give them enough of a respite to mourn, and actually a portion of that time was spent wondering whether Oliver was even still alive. And I don't remember them deciding they didn't need Oliver, especially considering they were getting their asses kicked up and down by Brick until Oliver showed up.
So, yeah. I like Arrow, I really do. I think the earlier seasons were stronger, but even so, this season has been redeemed by good writing in the recent episodes and some decent conflicts in between; but, character development is not something that I expect in any significant way at this point.
Why must someone be a part of some cult to state their opinion that one show is better than another? How about actually trying to engage me in the points I bring up instead of just going "lulz crazy Arrow people."
Reese most certainly did not trust his team as much as he did after this season. For starters, he started off very suspicious of Harold and he never really learned a significant amount about him to say that he knows Harold all that well; specifically, we're talking about his past with Nathan and how many other people he's brought onto this crusade of his before Reese. Root, for obvious reasons, isn't very trustworthy. Reese has some respect for her, but he always suspects that she has an ulterior motive (and she usually does). The same could be said about Shaw if you consider her background and how her role in the government closely mirrored his own. Reese being who he is, he's always been guarded around them. The person he felt closest to was Carter, mostly because she was an open book and he understood her more than the other characters, but he never shared much of himself with her. If anything, this has been something he's been working on since the show began.
Harold's relationship with the Machine hasn't been tackled in full, even after this finale; it's been a series-long struggle that he's faced, learning to trust the Machine as something that is legitimately trying to help him as opposed to the necessary monster he believes he's created. It's why we were only exposed to the morality clauses in this season, because it's all very relevant to how Harold is seeing the Machine as the plot progresses. It's been happening in stages and slowly. Up until the finale, and really what happens next in this subplot could go many ways, Harold never pretended to know what the Machine's ultimate goals were; he always thought that the Machine was a step away from becoming something like Samaritan.
Root's crisis of faith wasn't momentary; it was featured at the forefront in the episodes following Shaw's disappearance, then she disappeared for a few episodes while she went in direct opposition of the Machine's requests. Even then, she was pushing the Machine to take action where it would not otherwise out of fear and trying to protect its agents.
And yeah, Fusco gonna Fusco. No two ways about that.
Again, they suffered some serious casualties in this season. First Shaw, then the Machine, and now most likely their cover identities. They've been pushed back even further.
Most of the procedural episodes tied back to the overarching plot, and frankly, some of them fell flat. I'm not blind to that. But almost every one took a step towards advancing the plot. Also, I think it would be easier to consider this season as part of the whole rather than on its own. Sure, it may have felt like an overlong exposition for what's going to come next, but this series is longer than one season. It's going to build on what it's established in this season, even if they didn't gain much traction to fight back Decima/Samaritan. As it stands, on its own, I stand by what I said - this season was about beating the team back even further and surviving that, despite the few smaller steps they've taken towards defeating Decima.
I stand by my Arrow criticism. You're right, Laurel's plot wasn't confined to a single episode, but it was single-minded in nearly every way.
The episodes that followed Oliver's supposed death were a great opportunity to explore some of these things that you're talking about, but instead they just resolved to carry on Oliver's mission and went to deal with Brick. The writers didn't give them enough of a respite to mourn, and actually a portion of that time was spent wondering whether Oliver was even still alive. And I don't remember them deciding they didn't need Oliver, especially considering they were getting their asses kicked up and down by Brick until Oliver showed up.
So, yeah. I like Arrow, I really do. I think the earlier seasons were stronger, but even so, this season has been redeemed by good writing in the recent episodes and some decent conflicts in between; but, character development is not something that I expect in any significant way at this point.
My problem is that the season didn't really show this, they went about business like usual despite the supposed inconvenience of their covers and mostly beat Samaritan at every turn until Shaw got captured and those last couple episodes. Like I said, it feels like the whole season was just a holding pattern. As for Arrow, I want to point out that I'm not saying this season is great by any means or that it's succeeded in tackling its very clear theme, far from it. The fact that the show still entertains me on a certain level is a testament to how much they've built up these characters even though they seem hell bent on destroying all the development they've created. Speaking of the Brick arc,
what let down that whole plot to me was the fact that we knew Oliver was alive. I would have preferred if his death remained a mystery and we just dealt with Team Arrow dealing with his loss and eventually deciding they could do things without him. If you remember they end up succeeding by rallying the Glades to rise up against Brick with Oliver only showing up at the last second to claim victory.
It may seem like I'm praising Arrow a lot but that's only because I enjoy shows that take risks and try to mix things up. I'd still classify the current season of Arrow as a failure, it has a lot of lofty ideas and themes but fails to really capitalize on them. POI on the other hand just felt like a show going through the motions and thus lost my attention this season.
Why must someone be a part of some cult to state their opinion that one show is better than another? How about actually trying to engage me in the points I bring up instead of just going "lulz crazy Arrow people."
Nah, maybe another time, as I have a busy next few days. But I have a great wealth of experience dealing with ArrowGAF in the past. While I might back to discuss the new season, I''ll have to prepare myself for the coming craziness.
Nah, maybe another time, as I have a busy next few days. But I have a great wealth of experience dealing with ArrowGAF in the past. While I might back to discuss the new season, I''ll have to prepare myself for the coming craziness.
ArrowGAF has been the harshest on the show, even the recent good episodes haven't been enough to stem the amount of bile and hatred many feel for the show right now. It's the classic "once you hate something about someone, you hate everything about them" problem.
ArrowGAF has been the harshest on the show, even the recent good episodes haven't been enough to stem the amount of bile and hatred many feel for the show right now. It's the classic "once you hate something about someone, you hate everything about them" problem.
I'm talking about pre-season 3 discussions. I haven't been involved since before season 3 started up. I've been a vocal critic of the show as a whole and consider it to have very few, if any, redeeming factors (which the moronic SWAAAAAAGTASTIC shit like Deathstroke is not a part of), but right now, I don't even want to think about it, as I am busy and I have much better fiction to discuss. Besides, this thread is the PoI thread. You can use Arrow as a point of comparison, but it's not the place to discuss Arrow's merits on their own.
In a lot of ways S4 was a poor man's S3 (which wasn't perfect either in terms of consistency throughout the season). The main arc just wasn't as engaging and thematically the Brotherhood way less interesting than Vigilante. Last years trilogy was also better. What worried me, that the season structure was basically identical between both seasons. Starts like shit with first three Eps. Gets into the groove. Trilogy. Midseason-finale + start. One or two eps back to fdw shit again. Last few eps lead up to finale. Cut the shit next time...
My problem is that the season didn't really show this, they went about business like usual despite the supposed inconvenience of their covers and mostly beat Samaritan at every turn until Shaw got captured and those last couple episodes. Like I said, it feels like the whole season was just a holding pattern.
I defer to the issue of the audience. The show's biggest detriment is that it has to strike a balance between being wholly serialized, relying on its more cerebral plot elements to keep the drama and scifi crowd drawn in, but has to draw in enough of the casual crowd to stay on the air. It's why the show was billed as an action series to begin with, besides the fact that it hadn't really found out what story it wanted to tell yet. So, realistically, while the cover identities did have a bearing on how they operated, these characters being who they are, it didn't really affect them all that much. You can break it down to these small things like the team having to put on ski masks, but it's pretty minimal. Really, the larger takeaway from last season is this pervading sense of dread - that the characters took a major loss in S3 and they're trying to rebuild. Ultimately, it doesn't quite go that way and things spiral further as the season concludes, but that was the overall intent.
I think it being a holding pattern describes it perfectly, but perhaps not in the same way you mean. It was about the good guys holding their footing and not giving up any more ground, but ultimately being defeated further. As many smaller victories as Team Machine got in this season, they amounted to very little - except that, there are certain elements that have been left hanging, presumably to be picked up in the following seasons.
As for Arrow, I want to point out that I'm not saying this season is great by any means or that it's succeeded in tackling its very clear theme, far from it. The fact that the show still entertains me on a certain level is a testament to how much they've built up these characters even though they seem hell bent on destroying all the development they've created. Speaking of the Brick arc,
what let down that whole plot to me was the fact that we knew Oliver was alive. I would have preferred if his death remained a mystery and we just dealt with Team Arrow dealing with his loss and eventually deciding they could do things without him. If you remember they end up succeeding by rallying the Glades to rise up against Brick with Oliver only showing up at the last second to claim victory.
It may seem like I'm praising Arrow a lot but that's only because I enjoy shows that take risks and try to mix things up. I'd still classify the current season of Arrow as a failure, it has a lot of lofty ideas and themes but fails to really capitalize on them. POI on the other hand just felt like a show going through the motions and thus lost my attention this season.
Far be it from me to totally shit on Arrow, because I still watch it and I find it very entertaining, but you're absolutely right. It's not at the level where you can take it very seriously, because even though the intentions show promise, the execution leaves much to be desired (particularly in this season). Even so, the last few episodes have been very strong and further highlight the issues that plagued the series earlier in this season.
Arrow, even in it's current state, has more character development than all of POI.
This is really the only thing you said that I can't get behind in one form or another. It's easier to tell if you watch the episodes in quick succession, but the development is definitely there, even though it's broken up among many episodes. This isn't really a solution to the problems that a 22 episode season inherently carries (in this case, having all this development and plots spread out over many different episodes, coming off somewhat disjointed), but I feel rewatching a chunk of episodes every so often while a season is going on is helpful.
Even so, characterization is one of PoI's greatest strengths. I always think back to Shaw's introduction, how we started off the episode having no idea who she is; suddenly, they reveal she's on the relevant side, and we feel like we've known the character since the series began. The rest of the episode [and series] expands on it, but the tremendous amount of world-building beforehand made that introduction so incredible.
