The romantic arc specifically. The fact that the game rewards you for pressuring her into a particular gender role was agitating to me. Possible cultural or fanservice issues aside, it just seems incredibly dickish to try and influence something so central to a person's identity. I'm not very well versed in gender theory and don't remember the exact details so I'm not equipped to pick at it further, but it bugged me.
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Persona Community Thread |OT2| Burn My Thread
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The romantic arc specifically. The fact that the game rewards you for pressuring her into a particular gender role was agitating to me. Possible cultural or fanservice issues aside, it just seems incredibly dickish to try and influence something so central to a person's identity. I'm not very well versed in gender theory and don't remember the exact details so I'm not equipped to pick at it further, but it bugged me.
I can slightly agree with this. Plot wise she does nothing but repeat what protagonist has already figured out. They could have written her dialogue better.
Also as Caladrious said, her romantic arc is kinda degrading to her overall message.
PersonaGAF seems to agree thought that Kanji is the best character.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
That's because it's the truth.
buddha0991
Member
It's all good cuz the persona 2 duology is the best Persona. If you can deal with me liking Persona 1 more than Persona 3 to an extent, you can deal with me liking Yukiko, son!
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I know. I agree wholeheartedly. No one else come close. Protag doesn't count because voting for yourself is cheating.
How dare you twist my words into such, such lies and slander.
I never thought you were pressuring her into a role. It's been awhile, but apart from maybe one response off the top of my head, it's mostly her asking your honest opinion on the matter.
However, a lot of this hinges on whether the character is actually meant to be transgender or not. She certainly has gender identity issues, but I've always interpreted it as overcompensation for external societal pressures as opposed to actual gender dysphoria. One could point to the fact that she doesn't object to the rest of the cast suddenly referring to her with female pronouns or otherwise as female after the news breaks, but Japanese works differently in terms of gender and pronouns -- so it could just be a fluke of translation.
It's hard to say one way or the other, and Japan isn't necessarily the most socially forward when it comes to LGBT issues.
Naoto is not meant to be transgendered, and the pronouns thing is entirely a creation of the localization. They don't change their language around her in the Japanese release, still refering to her as "Naoto-kun" and all that. The whole transgender confusion probably comes from the fact that Naoto was originally a guy, according to the artbooks. It wasn't intentional. 
And as for the scene in question, changing one's behaviors because someone you love found a certain characteristic flattering or enjoyable is hardly unusual.
And as for the scene in question, changing one's behaviors because someone you love found a certain characteristic flattering or enjoyable is hardly unusual.
To call Naoto transgendered is a misunderstanding of her character arc. lol, this conversation is also a part of the PersonaGAF Cycle.
Search your heart. You know it's true.
Search your heart. You know it's true.
ShmeebAlina
Member
Naoto is not meant to be transgendered, and the pronouns thing is entirely a creation of the localization. They don't change their language around her in the Japanese release, still refering to her as "Naoto-kun" and all that. The whole transgender confusion probably comes from the fact that Naoto was originally a guy, according to the artbooks. It wasn't intentional.
I thought it was because of the whole 'body alteration procedure' thing. But yeah, I don't think that was the intention either. Seemed to me Naoto's arc was simply trying to say she should act and dress the way she wants, she shouldn't have to change gender. That's why I agree with Caladrious, that part kinda bothered me, we just established that she should just be herself, and then there she is asking the protagonist if he thinks she should change clothes or make her voice higher.
That's the biggest part of it for me. Even though gender identity was never a substantive factor for the writers, forcing yourself to be someone you might not actually be just to please someone doesn't gel with the rest of the game's message of being yourself (but not at the expense of others) and accepting people for who they are and understanding that they do their own thing.
Well, the second part of that is bad translation. In the Japanese version, she asks if he'd rather she used to male or female... somethings. Something to do with how she speaks. She uses the male ones, and asks if he'd rather she used the female ones now that he knows the truth. Which is much less ambiguous.
To be fair, the change clothes thing is partially a Japanese cultural trope. In the original Japanese she asks you about pronoun usage: Naoto refers to herself using a masculine style of speech ("Boku" to refer to herself, and male sentences enders, etc), but asks you if you'd prefer more a feminine style of speech. If you say yes, she brings her school uniform to the Christmas event.
It's not only much less ambiguous, it's also not nearly as big of a deal. She is simply going form speaking how her job requires her to speak to speaking normally like any woman would.
Most games don't tackle gender roles at all.
That said, Japanese does have a lot of idiosyncrasies.
ShmeebAlina
Member
Ah I see, I didn't know about those changes, interesting. Whether it's down to the original writing or the localisation though, as an English player it sends a rather confusing message. It just seems contradictory. It's not a huge deal though, heck I didn't even see that scene in my playthrough.
Not uncommon. Although it varies from game to game, and the setting of Persona games does the translators no favor. There's simply no way to translate Naoto's behavior because English doesn't have anywhere near the formality or gender levels of Japanese.
Even the best translation teams can miss stuff. For example, the translation team to Xenoblade missed a rather significant detail during the ending that radically changes what the character is talking about. Simply because they did not recognize that "Monado" is a reference to "Monad" in philosophy and religion.
Oh, you're talking about the whole "boku" thing?
Well, it's not just that. Naoto tends to speak somewhat formal using neutral or masculine sounding words. The English translators tried to capture that with a slightly pedantic way of speaking, but it largely flew over the heads of people.
I'd have to find a specific line to give you an example, and I'm currently far too lazy to do that. >_>;
ShmeebAlina
Member
Yeah, I was actually surprised when I found out there was a whole LGBT discussion around Kanji and Naoto. But folk are sensitive about those subjects, and they're sorta used for symbolism here so I can understand how some people have read into it.
In Kanji's and Naoto's cases I figured it was simply a fear of rejection due to not conforming to society's expectations, and the message is just y'know, be honest with yourself duuude.
Would you be able to point me in some kind of direction as to where I can find out about this? I love Xenoblade to bits and Google is being smelly. That or I suck at using search terms.
I'm probably the only person who on PersonaGAF who doesn't like either character as much as the majority. My P4 rankings are:
Y(o)u > Yosuke > Chie > Teddie > Kanji > Yukiko > Rise > Naoto
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostInTranslation
Video game section. Contains MASSIVE spoilers however.
Well it's not difficult to see why there's LGBT discussion around Naoto and Kanji, because the way their shadows represent their inner conflicts is by hooking into that larger discussion (so to speak), even though that's not really what they're ultimately about. Furthermore, LGBT characters don't have a lot of good, nuanced representation in gaming at all, so any hint of treatment that is better than 'hurr dur hilarious gay guy hurr durr sexy lesbians' is jumped on by critics, academics and other people who want to talk about representation and identity in videogames. Actually, the first characters who I remember even vaguely thinking might've been gay in a videogame before P4 was probably the two chicks from Fear Effect 2, and they were pretty clearly sexualised for no good reason.
ShmeebAlina
Member
Thank you! And now I wanna play Xenoblade again.
As for favourite P4 characters I can't make my mind up. It was originally Teddie, then Naoto, now I'm sorta leaning towards Kanji. Heck I like all of 'em.
Voting for yourself is cheating.
I'd love to see a game with a properly handled transgendered character. Virtually no representation in media deals with issues they face. Like having a lost childhood, or the (precieved) stigma of friends and family, and the difficulties of puberty.
Naoto's not that character however. Erica was a little bit better in Catherine, but there were some unfortunate implications there.
Naoto's not that character however. Erica was a little bit better in Catherine, but there were some unfortunate implications there.
Voting for yourself is cheating.
No one can truly love you until you love yourself first!
Yup, as I've said before they leave far too much up to interpretation/debate in Persona 4, and when dealing with a character's identity, there shouldn't be any interpretation. At least not when dealing with minorities.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I've had it pre-ordered for Vita for months now!
Have Sophia do it. That should be fun.
I don't have a good mic.
I can do this.
Blick Winkel
Member
One day...
There will be more interviews, I'm sure. The more people we get, the more names we have to drop, so other actors know we're cool.
So, who else do people want to hear from? In the realm of possibility, I mean?
Laura Bailey and Troy Baker would be excellent, but they're in high demand. We tried Yuri Lowenthall, but he seems to be crazy busy, which, given his wife's twitter feed, isn't surprising in the least.
So, who else do people want to hear from? In the realm of possibility, I mean?
Laura Bailey and Troy Baker would be excellent, but they're in high demand. We tried Yuri Lowenthall, but he seems to be crazy busy, which, given his wife's twitter feed, isn't surprising in the least.
I think this is a large part of it. If the topic LGBT and whatnot, people might not be so frequently making leaps in logic beyond what is explicitly stated.
I think, as an aside this, it could happen, and it would be fine, if not 'great'. If it was just "Oh, this character is trans", then I think it's completely possible. Like you say, Erica already kind of did that, and I liked that they played up to it rather than tiptoeing around it.
As a major character arc, I think it's probably unlikely. I'm sure it would be nice for trans players to have someone to associate with, but I think it's so far away from what the majority of players experience that most people wouldn't be into it.
A smaller indie company could do it, but I'd be surprised if we ever saw anything major in a retail title.
Realistically, maybe Michelle Ruff.
Unrealistically, Liam O'Brien. ;p
In regards to Erica, you don't really find out explicitly that she is trans unless you get the true lovers ending. Otherwise it's just kinda implied, mostly due to the other guys worries about Toby wanting to date her.
I can understand that. It wouldn't be too hard for people to read the wrong things from Vincent's treatment of Erica.
Are you sure?
Not that I want to get on this debate again, but there's a lot of people that feel it isn't explicitly stated.
It's like in the 80's when MTV was terrified to show Michael Jackson's videos on TV because they were afraid it would alienate white people.
Atlus shouldn't be expected to do it of course, they're not obligated to do anything. However not putting in a LGBT character just for the fear of alienating fans would be really unfortunate, and pathetic.
Yeah, I'm actually hoping people suggest more men. I think we're one actress away from people throwing around "WaifuCast".
Are you sure?
Yes, I will bring the booze!
Yeah, though, unforuntley the guys seem to be the ones the most busy.
Liam, Yuri, Troy.
Aside from those three? Vic? I'm sure he's busy too. (And I'm sure you guys probably have reasons for not wanting him on.)
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