Lollipop Dave
Member
This...this is pretty great.
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Persona Community Thread |OT3| Your thread title sucks, Yukiko.
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This...this is pretty great.
Exactly. Though arguably, they stopped caring about that the moment they gave canonical names and personalities to characters designed essentially designed to be blank slates.
Also, Levito, if you don't mind and if you have any more room, could I be on the podcast. I'd particularly like to talk about Q and how it relates to the Etrian Odyssey series.
Lollipop Dave
Member
I'm 50/50 on the idea myself. I think a single route matters. I would like to see an added MC later down the line though, like what P3P did.
Good, now bring the movie over hear Aniplex.
I'm surprised that a lot of non fans watched the movie. It would be a very good time to release P3V then.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
What's the point of choosing between MC and Femc if it's gonna be like female Sheperd from Mass effect? Same character for all intents and purposes except a few small changes.
Just choose one gender and go with it.
Just choose one gender and go with it.
Inclined to agree. If you can't do it like FeMC, then I'm not interested, personally.
animaSerah
Member
I suppose that would be true if P3's FeMC was anything like FemShep. She's not-- ATLUS created a different character, not just a gender swap.
That's my opinion.
Perhaps, but I don't think Persona 5 is in the same position for that as Persona 3 Portable was.
I can see both sides to this argument.
I mean i'd definitely be happy if they included another gender option from the get go, but if it wasn't the same as P3P (where FeMC got new S.links, new events and significant dialogue changes to accommodate her) i'd be a little disappointed. P3P was the one game where I went "yeah i'm actually playing as a girl this time."
It was a really refreshing and unique experience. I hope they manage to pull it off again.
Yet it was a character for a port, so they had to put more effort into it for people to even buy 3P, at least those that bought FES. Do you think the same situation applies here?
At the very least, by having two characters at the start you pick between, it means you probably get half the content of each if you want to have them be that much different. Do you *really* want that? I'd rather they just go female(or male) and stick with it, and make the best game they can.
...then release a new version of 5 for the PS4 a few years later with the other option.
Ask a girl. Seriously.
animaSerah
Member
Yet it was a character for a port, so they had to put more effort into it for people to even buy 3P, at least those that bought FES. Do you think the same situation applies here?
At the very least, by having two characters at the start you pick between, it means you probably get half the content of each if you want to have them be that much different. Do you *really* want that? I'd rather they just go female(or male) and stick with it, and make the best game they can.
...then release a new version of 5 for the PS4 a few years later with the other option.
That's true, FeMC came with a port. I'm not sure they would put the same effort into vanilla P5, I'm just saying if anyone could create a true female MC (and not just a gender swap) it would be P-Studio. And I hope they do it with P5.
There's that. I guess I can also see both perspectives on this, but I lean towards the (more selfish?) opinion of wanting a better, more focused overall game than affecting the game's quality (unless the whole game was designed around two possible MCs) by giving players the option.
I just want whatever's best for P5. Doesn't matter if the only option would be female or male.
animaSerah
Member
Absolutely. Well said.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Atlus just don't have the resources for two unique perspectives, That's the biggest problem. It will be a diluted experience with two playable MC's.
That said, I would like a Femc. It would be a nice change of pace for the series and players. Though, I doubt the Japanese otaku would be very happy.
But P3P
I agree!
What are these "resources" though? All we're really talking about here is more writing and one more character model; also another VA to say (presumably) a few lines.
They'd ideally be different routes, but the assets would repeat. Same characters, same levels, same music, same plot beats and cutscenes.
This isn't anywhere near as difficult a thing to do as some people so often seem to make it out to be.
Edit: And this might just be me, but I've never gotten the impression otakus are against female leads.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Had a visual novel presentation and no 3d models for the extra characters. Also was a port later down the line.
If you have everything the same wouldn't it feel like you were playing the same character? Same S.links, Same path for most of the story.
Come on, P3P isn't the same situation as P5 in the least.
P3P is very much a different thing, yeah.
Seriously though, I really want to hear about these mythical "resources" preventing dual MCs.
No, because the writing would differ. That's why I say there's no resource issue. The brunt of the work would be on the writer(s) crafting a second scenario and programmers to implement it of course. You don't have to do a lick of asset work though.
It'd be basically what Shouta summarized here:
If it was just a character swap, then the effort required would definitely be lessened, but then at that point is it really worth it if the gender is a purely superficial difference?
animaSerah
Member
Ideally, I'd like to see something more like P3P with new and different SLinks and a similar main plot. The differentiation between the two leads was pronounced enough that it felt like playing two different characters. But if they're struggling with "resources" I'd at least like to see a gender swap like what you're describing here. That shouldn't be nearly as expensive and would appeal to a larger audience.
Unless they did it Pokemon style, where the alternate gender shows up as an NPC, or P3P style, where it's a whole other character following the same core plot but a distinctly different life (Which I don't think it going to happen), I'd rather there was just one gender.
If you make the character interchangeable, then they become less of a character. Shepard being the perfect example.
It would be interesting if the lead was female. I suppose I'd view some parts of the game differently to if I was playing as a man.
If you make the character interchangeable, then they become less of a character. Shepard being the perfect example.
It would be interesting if the lead was female. I suppose I'd view some parts of the game differently to if I was playing as a man.
Shouta's right. Even as a superficial difference though, yes? Like I said: Ask a girl.
For a series that's basically all about the power of the individual as they are, I can understand why an individual would want their gender represented. I could say it's no big deal (and ultimately it's not, for me), but I've got nothing to worry about. I'm male.
Yep.
Money is a finite resource. All these things cost money. If they have to spend it on extra writing or programming for a female route, that's money they can't spend elsewhere on improving the game quality.
I'm all for gender equality when it comes for protagonists. I think there should be more female protagonists. However, pretending they can just magically add a girl's side is naive at best, disingenuous at worst.
Honestly, I think they should do a devoted female MC and leave it at that, but that's pretty unlikely.
I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying it would not be as difficult (or expensive) as it's often made out to be.
The point is, if we want things like really expanded social links(provided they keep them at all), do you really think they'll be as deep as they would be for two characters versus one? Even provided that they have the same people for each arcana(which would be sign #1 of not a good idea), do you foresee them sharing the same events? Even with some social link carry over from male to female in P3P, they had to change practically each rank. Even then, if they could get away with the bare minimum of change, again is it something you want, or something you'd rather have them build from the ground up?
Male 3P route was FES, so nothing new really needed to be done. You can basically look at 3P like do: A new female MC, with the male Fes route as a neat little bonus.
In summation: Plot wise, not much difference between male and female, but plot has been half of the modern persona games to begin with, let's be frank.
Male 3P route was FES, so nothing new really needed to be done. You can basically look at 3P like do: A new female MC, with the male Fes route as a neat little bonus.
In summation: Plot wise, not much difference between male and female, but plot has been half of the modern persona games to begin with, let's be frank.
Yeah, I guess I get that a bit (though, to me gender is as integral to one's being as one's ethnicity, and none of it matters to me).
However, like Dantis mentioned, including both simply for a cosmetic change and replacements of "her" to "hims" or vice-versa would hurt the game more than it would improve it in my opinion, so I'm going to take the selfish option again. Focus on having the character's gender be important or significant to certain scenes or the overall narrative would be rendered inexistent if they chose the Mass Effect gender swap path.
Twice as many animated sequences would be pretty expensive at least, but if they removed animated sequences, it wouldn't be that hard.
I think people dramatically overplay what people actually want when they ask for a FeMC and dramatically underplay precisely how many resources that Atlus really has on hand for a title as big as Persona. When people are asking for a FeMC, no one (reasonable) wants dramatically different stories or drastic rewrites of every single social link they have. Frankly, P5's hypothetical FeMC would probably demand less work, event-wise, then P3P's FeMC. The most substantial additions were adding Social Links to characters that absolutely needed them (like the male members of SEES) and it's unlikely they'll make the same mistake in P5. Most of the existing social links in P3P were not dramatically altered for FeMC. The main story doesn't change at all.
And it's not like the Persona team is scared of people not seeing Social Links or dialogue events in their first run. BioWare, they are not. I'm not even talking about P3P here. Think of all the dungeon dialogue some people will literally never see ever in P4, the mutually exclusive phone call events? Two mutually exclusive Social Links in P4!
Also, are people really suggesting a 3D model is the difference between feasibly implementing a second protagonist option? Seriously?
I just don't think stuff like VA costs or different dialogue costs as much as people suggest it is. I mean, they brought on nearly every single VA for P3 and P4 to record a bunch of numbers and a few "please wait" messages, and while I doubt it was insignificant, it's incredibly unlikely it broke the bank.
And frankly, different dialogue options between two characters when they're in all likelihood not even going to be voiced is really far from especially unreasonable.
Also, if you just throw up your hands and make both characters "canon" in either route, you get around having to reanimate scenes. Just make the one you don't pick your first party member.
And it's not like the Persona team is scared of people not seeing Social Links or dialogue events in their first run. BioWare, they are not. I'm not even talking about P3P here. Think of all the dungeon dialogue some people will literally never see ever in P4, the mutually exclusive phone call events? Two mutually exclusive Social Links in P4!
Also, are people really suggesting a 3D model is the difference between feasibly implementing a second protagonist option? Seriously?
I just don't think stuff like VA costs or different dialogue costs as much as people suggest it is. I mean, they brought on nearly every single VA for P3 and P4 to record a bunch of numbers and a few "please wait" messages, and while I doubt it was insignificant, it's incredibly unlikely it broke the bank.
And frankly, different dialogue options between two characters when they're in all likelihood not even going to be voiced is really far from especially unreasonable.
Also, if you just throw up your hands and make both characters "canon" in either route, you get around having to reanimate scenes. Just make the one you don't pick your first party member.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Doesn't Eternal punishment have the worst sales of the series in Japan?
I don't know how much these things cost to implement, or how much Atlus actually does have in its coffers. I'd also wager you don't either.
I'd much rather they take the safe route and devote all their time and energy towards one gender route, whichever it ends up being.
You probably said all that better than I could have Moonlight, thanks.
With respect to different sides of the argument, one thing everybody needs to stop doing is acting like developing a female route means making a separate game and going damn-near bankrupt doing so. It doesn't.
With respect to different sides of the argument, one thing everybody needs to stop doing is acting like developing a female route means making a separate game and going damn-near bankrupt doing so. It doesn't.
I always assumed that presentation was more an issue of the limits of the psp. I'd think Atlus has more than enough resources to have both genders as an option for P5 if they wanted.
Indeed. If the Skullgirls debacle has taught me anything, it's that enthusiasts often underestimate development costs for seemingly small things, but none of us really know how much those implementations would cost the P-Team, whether financially or in terms of development time.
I don't think anyone's against a female main character. In a perfect world, I don't think anyone would be against having the option for both genders in Persona 5, either. This discussion, though, goes past simply what we want.
I wouldn't attribute Eternal Punishment's poor sales to Maya being the main protagonist when it had a host of special circumstances that led it to flopping (Such as: Series fatigue, having an all-adult case, being released on the same that day as the My little sister game, being a port of a 10 year old game that was released in 2011.)
The PS1 version actually did decently, or so i've been told.
And this is a different situation. Maya is a pre-existing character of an old game. The theoretical FeMC would be the lead of one of the most anticipated games of 2014.
Voice acting isn't crazy expensive. I knew that before we started doing the podcast from having an interest in the field, but now we've had multiple people tell us exactly that. That's why most voice actors double as voice coaches and/or work constantly. It's hard, fun work that doesn't actually pay very well or break the bank for the groups that need it.
If it wasn't, do you not think that's what they're going to do?
It's not just VA, but everything else. Programming, QA, art assets, animations, modelling, writing... We don't know how much it would cost them in terms of finances and/or development time, so I think it's unreasonable to claim that it would be effortless on their part to include both genders as an option. All we can say is that whatever money or time that would go towards the option would undoubtedly be used for other things if that option wasn't there.
Heyo_Rockbreaker
Member
I don't see the cause for such a big fuss when it comes to having a gender option in Persona 5. It seems more like people are fussing about wanting a female protagonist. If people care so much, make the protagonist female. Don't write two totally different characters. That just takes resources away from producing content for the game as a whole.
It's not. I want their to be two different protags, but I can fully understand the financial side of the argument. You seem to be underplaying the financial side of this.
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