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[Moonlight]

Listening to the 'cast, got around to where you guys start talking about platonic relationships and how P5 could better accommodate S. Links with girls that don't ultimately wind up with romance (reciprocated or otherwise), and while I don't necessarily agree, I think what P5 really has to do a better job of is making dialogue choices and the like during S. Links matter more. To be clearer, it'd be nice if they influenced more in the direction of the S. Link than a slightly different immediate scene or how fast it progresses, and introduced stuff like 'fail-states' that aren't immediately obvious. I guess some people might balk at that because it means making Persona's 'dating sim lite' mechanic a little less 'lite' and involved, but I always thought it was kind of dumb you could be the biggest shithead that the game could possibly let you be in a lot of the game and rarely ever did the game actually punish you for it beyond denying you a few points (which costed you maybe a day) and reversing your Link in, like, three examples. It'd be cool if you could get shot down when push comes to shove or even wind up with some choices honestly backfiring on you (that aren't obvious 'this is the worst idea ever' stuff like 'I'm not helping with this' or whatever).

It's part of why I like P3P's romantic Social Links so much. Akihiko in particular was an example where you actually had to put some conscious thought into particular choices if you wanted particular results and it wasn't immediately clear that you weren't getting what you wanted (but things progressed anyways).

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Well, perception is ostensibly what their shadows are, seeing as they are a manifestation of those latent fears/emotions.

Perhaps, but in Yukiko's case it's not simply other peoples' simplistic perception, but it's how Yukiko intentionally portrays herself as to anyone but her closest friends. Like the P4A2 artbook states: "Only her closest friends, the members of the Investigation Team, have the privilege of knowing the real Yukiko: a quirky, naturally silly girl who, once she gets into a laughing fit, has trouble shopping."

 

[buddha0991]

I totally agree. I also think that not all Slinks should not be made with the objective of getting you to like said character, not every single character needs to be likable or redeemable.

 

[Acid08]

Meanwhile, all of them are falling for MC. Poor Yosuke.

Yosuke doesn't deserve happiness.

 

[Squire]

I agree with the notion of basically holding the player accountable for their actions.

I really do think you and Levito are both right. And I think they can do both in the same game.

 

[Jintor]

Well, assuming they're sticking with a similar party setup, I'd like at least the main cast to remain likable.

 

[buddha0991]

Yosuke doesn't deserve happiness.

 

[Squire]

Well, assuming they're sticking with a similar party setup, I'd like at least the main cast to remain likable.

I really don't envision them going down a route where the main party isn't likable on the whole.

Antagonistic relationships could and should happen in S.Links on the side, but the party's going to be as likable as Atlus can make them without it feeling forced because, like high school, that's just part of the series DNA, you know?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Well, assuming they're sticking with a similar party setup, I'd like at least the main cast to remain likable.

Did you find 999's cast to be likable?

 

[Kazzy]

Listening to the 'cast, got around to where you guys start talking about platonic relationships and how P5 could better accommodate S. Links with girls that don't ultimately wind up with romance (reciprocated or otherwise), and while I don't necessarily agree, I think what P5 really has to do a better job of is making dialogue choices and the like during S. Links matter more. To be clearer, it'd be nice if they influenced more in the direction of the S. Link than a slightly different immediate scene or how fast it progresses, and introduced stuff like 'fail-states' that aren't immediately obvious. I guess some people might balk at that because it means making Persona's 'dating sim lite' mechanic a little less 'lite' and involved, but I always thought it was kind of dumb you could be the biggest shithead that the game could possibly let you be in a lot of the game and rarely ever did the game actually punish you for it beyond denying you a few points (which costed you maybe a day) and reversing your Link in, like, three examples. It'd be cool if you could get shot down when push comes to shove or even wind up with some choices honestly backfiring on you (that aren't obvious 'this is the worst idea ever' stuff like 'I'm not helping with this' or whatever).

It's part of why I like P3P's romantic Social Links so much. Akihiko in particular was an example where you actually had to put some conscious thought into particular choices if you wanted particular results and it wasn't immediately clear that you weren't getting what you wanted (but things progressed anyways).

Perhaps, but if they really wanted to promote the idea of relationships feeling natural or organic, they shouldn't reward for you doing it 'right'. Progress measured solely through a binary metric shouldn't be the focus, and instead the emphasis should be placed on the interaction. As long as there are numbers tied to these sort of systems, people will always judge by whether or not they 'won' that particular encounter. "Oh, I didn't level up my S-link. I guess I screwed it up."

On the subject of dating, Persona 4 improved it slightly by having you able to actually pick who you don't (rather than having no decision), but it always seemed like a compromise, whenever you rejected anyone. I always got the impression that the romance was your reward, and refusing the option was tantamount of not caring enough (about the game).

 

[Lunar15]

What if you made it so that your choices change the way the relationship forms, which changes the "reward" for completing the link? Perhaps even changing arcanas mid way or something.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

What if you made it so that your choices change the way the relationship forms, which changes the "reward" for completing the link? Perhaps even changing arcanas mid way or something.

I don't like the idea of changing arcanas, but dialogue choices changing the dynamic of the relationship could be interesting. As long as one gets the choice to not engage in a romantic relationship with anyone, I'm good.

 

[Lunar15]

I don't like the idea of changing arcanas, but dialogue choices changing the dynamic of the relationship could be interesting. As long as one gets the choice to not engage in a romantic relationship with anyone, I'm good.

Technically that's how P4 works. You don't have to enter a romantic relationship to complete the s.link. It only really matters for one or two cutscenes at the end.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Technically that's how P4 works. You don't have to enter a romantic relationship to complete the s.link. It only really matters for one or two cutscenes at the end.

I know that since I didn't engage in a relationship with anyone in P4. I mean in terms of that "reward" suggestion you had. I wouldn't want to inadvertently end up in a relationship with a character because of certain dialogue choices I made without an actual choice in the matter.

I didn't mean perception, solely as how others view them, but also how that skews their own self-perspective. It's that dichotomy, between the outward/inner self that defines everyone.

Ah, I see. Alright then.

 

[Kazzy]

Perhaps, but in Yukiko's case it's not simply other peoples' simplistic perception, but it's how Yukiko intentionally portrays herself as to anyone but her closest friends. Like the P4A2 artbook states: "Only her closest friends, the members of the Investigation Team, have the privilege of knowing the real Yukiko: a quirky, naturally silly girl who, once she gets into a laughing fit, has trouble shopping."

I didn't mean perception, solely as how others view them, but also how that skews their own self-perspective. It's that dichotomy, between the outward/inner self that defines everyone.

 

[Squire]

I don't really think it's worth concerning yourself with numbers and players calculating what to say and do to get the "win" (whatever they perceive that to be) because they're always going to do that.

The point is that the system needs to be deeper. I can't stop the next guy from buying the strategy guide that tells him how to make every character love him because if Atlus makes that possible, that's what he'll do. And that's fine with me, as long as I can still enjoy the game just as much while playing through it naturally.

 

[Moonlight]

What if you made it so that your choices change the way the relationship forms, which changes the "reward" for completing the link? Perhaps even changing arcanas mid way or something.

This is essentially what I was trying to say. Maybe not going as far as changing Arcana, because that would probably complicate things massively (it only worked for

Spoiler

Adachi because everything 'Jester' just became 'Hunger'

), but I really think that dialogue choices should have more immediate and dramatic impact on how the S. Link progresses and where it goes. Being a friend (or being friend-zoned) or whatever else should be an equally valid 'ending' to a social link as romance, and better yet, that sort of thing wouldn't just be added up at the Rank 9 event or whatever, but directly influence where things are going as the SLink goes on.

That sounds a little more complex than it did in my head, but it'd be nice.

I suppose 'fail-states' are the wrong word to use, but it'd be nice to subvert expectations with the animal magnetism we've come to expect from Persona protagonists where pursuing a romance (or friendship) specifically demands some amount of actual attention to what you're saying and doing.

 

[Squire]

This is essentially what I was trying to say. Maybe not going as far as changing Arcana, because that would probably complicate things massively (it only worked for

Spoiler

Adachi because everything 'Jester' just became 'Hunger'

), but I really think that dialogue choices should have more immediate and dramatic impact on how the S. Link progresses and where it goes. Being a friend (or being friend-zoned) or whatever else should be an equally valid 'ending' to a social link as romance, and better yet, that sort of thing wouldn't just be added up at the Rank 9 event or whatever, but directly influence where things are going as the SLink goes on.

That sounds a little more complex than it did in my head, but it'd be nice.

I suppose 'fail-states' are the wrong word to use, but it'd be nice to subvert expectations with the animal magnetism we've come to expect from Persona protagonists where pursuing a romance (or friendship) specifically demands some amount of actual attention to what you're saying and doing.

I think I fully understand what you're saying now. Sounds good. I agree.

 

[Kazzy]

...I suppose 'fail-states' are the wrong word to use, but it'd be nice to subvert expectations with the animal magnetism we've come to expect from Persona protagonists where pursuing a romance (or friendship) specifically demands some amount of actual attention to what you're saying and doing.

Hell, you could do something as simple as making con-current relationships between NPC's possible. It's really strange to think that in a group of teenagers such as that, only one individual would ever be making any sort of moves. Obviously there's attraction, but a lot of that never moves past incidental dialogue, or is only ever exploited for comedy purposes.

If you don't do something, who's to say that someone else wouldn't?

 

[PK Gaming]

Golden adds a ton to her character

All of her extra scenes are downright amazing. Someone needs to post the exchange between her & Kanji at Junes.

 

[Jintor]

Did you find 999's cast to be likable?

Mostly, though it's not the same thing - 999's cast isn't what I'd call a party

 

[fertygo]

You know while "consequence" is cool to have in S.Link mechanic?
Does it gonna actually "fun" for us to play?

Because in my case, I'd just reset my game if I got reversed or such.. And if they make it common like that, I think many of us just gonna give up to guide and such.

I think the S.Link don't need any punish mechanic, but maybe its could just lead to less satisfying ending depending on your option, you can got your LV. 10 but the scenario altered depending on your choice.

Example :

Spoiler

LV 10a : Fuuka giving up cooking completely and be happy with that.
LV 10b: Fuuka learning how to properly cook with her own way

Spoiler

Stealth FeMC route brag ppost

 

[Lollipop Dave]

You know while "consequence" is cool to have in S.Link mechanic?
Does it gonna actually "fun" for us to play?

Because in my case, I'd just reset my game if I got reversed or such.. And if they make it common like that, I think many of us just gonna give up to guide and such.

I think the S.Link don't need any punish mechanic, but maybe its could just lead to less satisfying ending depending on your option, you can got your LV. 10 but the scenario altered depending on your choice.

Example :

LV 10a : Fuuka giving up cooking completely and be happy with that.
LV 10b: Fuuka learning how to properly cook with her own way

Spoiler

Stealth FeMC route brag ppost

I agree with this. As great as it would be for immersion, it just wouldn't be fun. I personally wouldn't reset it, but I know plenty who would if they didn't achieve their desired result.

The idea of being able to reach multiple level 10 S.Links is interesting but I think it holds the same problem, people will just reset and try again if they know their not going to get the better ending.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Mostly, though it's not the same thing - 999's cast isn't what I'd call a party

Yeah, it's a different team dynamic. Still, the best way that their situation can be resolved is for them to cooperate, even though, because of the situation, they are all relatively suspicious of each other to varying degrees, but with small factions of people who think they can trust each other such as Junpei and June or Snake and Clover. Then there are others who have antagonistic relationships such as Lotus and Ace or Santa and some of them.

It's a complicated team dynamic that the Zero Escape series portrays where it's in everyone's best interest to trust each other and cooperate, but because of the circumstances, blind faith in each other is impossible. As the game progresses, the team as a whole strengthens, people start to trust each other more (making some betrayals all the more stunning) and a real sense of camaraderie starts to arise.

It's the thought of something like that that makes me somewhat averse to the description of "likable." I don't need the main cast to be all friends with each other immediately and all be the best people in the world who have some internal problems that go away almost as fast as they surface after they confront their Shadows P4 style. Heck, P2:EP's cast wasn't initially like that and that was one of the best teams in the series.

 

[PK Gaming]

What if you made it so that your choices change the way the relationship forms, which changes the "reward" for completing the link? Perhaps even changing arcanas mid way or something.

Going back to

Spoiler

to the Adachi S.link example

, I think they should do something similar in P5, wherein a particular S.link completely changes in nature depending on the choices you make throughout the S.link.

For example: Let's say you S.link one of your party members in P5. Depending on your responses, you could potentially wind up in 3 possible situations. One in which said party member is your very close friend, another one in which said party member is a rival/slightly antagonistic (school?) and a third scenario where you end up being romantically involved (<3). In the first scenario, the final S.link scene could have this person recounting his/her favorite childhood memory, or something along those lines. The 2nd scenario could possibly have you 2 competing in one final event (school? sports???) and the final event would predictably entail kissy-kissy time.

The main point is that each of these paths are equally interesting. Nobody wants to go down the "inferior" path due to a fuck up. I want them to encourage players to replay multiple times. That kind of depth would be immensely challenging to implement in a game, but I think if anybody can pull it off, it's the Persona team can pull it off.

 

[FireSol]

most suggestion in podcast good in theory, but they will not gonna work combined. whole geme will transform to reset fest like Namatame hospital choices if you dont know the right answers. over complex systems doesnt work...i agree that they should add punishment for cheating and that not every relationships must turn in to the romance

 

[Moonlight]

You know while "consequence" is cool to have in S.Link mechanic?
Does it gonna actually "fun" for us to play?

Because in my case, I'd just reset my game if I got reversed or such.. And if they make it common like that, I think many of us just gonna give up to guide and such.

I think the S.Link don't need any punish mechanic, but maybe its could just lead to less satisfying ending depending on your option, you can got your LV. 10 but the scenario altered depending on your choice.

Example :

Spoiler

LV 10a : Fuuka giving up cooking completely and be happy with that.
LV 10b: Fuuka learning how to properly cook with her own way

Spoiler

Stealth FeMC route brag ppost

By all means, I absolutely agree. I just brought up reversals (I'm not a huge fan of them in execution, really) in P4 because it's an instance where the game actually pays attention to what you've actually said in any manner more significant than the amount of points you get for saying it.

I don't really see the harm in multiple Rank 10 events, though. Yeah, some people might reset, but when I say multiple Rank 10 events, I don't mean a choice at Rank 9 that moves what Rank 10 is gonna be about, but when you spread out those choices over an entire link I don't think tons of people would see the value in going all the way back for it when it'd be simpler to, if they absolutely wanted a romance or whatever, to cut their losses and pursue a different 'route' to Rank 10 than they did in their first run through. Mostly I just don't think there has to be a 'better' ending in this equation, just equally valid ones with different implications and maybe personal resolutions.

I guess to simplify I just want P5 to get around that issue of girls you talk to enough getting attracted to you regardless of what you do or don't do, and the romance at the end isn't so much a product to your dedication towards seeing that result as it is in P4 where the onus to reciprocate squarely on you, because no matter what, they're going to be in love. And in P3 where there's no ability to choose not to at all, and romance happens anyways, often at the expense of the character in question.

Hell, you could do something as simple as making con-current relationships between NPC's possible. It's really strange to think that in a group of teenagers such as that, only one individual would ever be making any sort of moves. Obviously there's attraction, but a lot of that never moves past incidental dialogue, or is only ever exploited for comedy purposes.

If you don't do something, who's to say that someone else wouldn't?

I would absolutely love to see stuff like this.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The main point is that each of these paths are equally interesting. Nobody wants to go down the "inferior" path due to a fuck up. I want them to encourage players to replay multiple times. That kind of depth would be immensely challenging to implement in a game, but I think if anybody can pull it off, it's the Persona team can pull it off.

Again, as long as one cannot end up in a romantic path against their will simply because of the dialogue choices they made.

 

[IcyStorm]

The idea of being able to reach multiple level 10 S.Links is interesting but I think it holds the same problem, people will just reset and try again if they know their not going to get the better ending.

Then they shouldn't tie in a "good" or "true" ending with the decisions made in social links. That sort of thing should perhaps be strictly related to main story related choices.

 

[Lunar15]

I agree that all of those are issues. Just curious as to how they could put some choice into the situation.

Although, to be honest they could change the structure of the game in P5 completely. I strongly doubt it, but hey, at this point we're in the dark.

 

[Squire]

You know while "consequence" is cool to have in S.Link mechanic?
Does it gonna actually "fun" for us to play?

Yes. Everyone making a case for it is doing so because it would be much more fun; more interesting.

These people who would reset the game aren't to be fretted over because they'll do that no matter what. Atlus better serves their game and their audience by making the game as interesting and varied as they can. Anyone who wants to use a guide, can.

 

[PK Gaming]

Again, as long as one cannot end up in a romantic path against their will simply because of the dialogue choices they made.

Haha, definitely. In the system i'm envisioning, the romance path would be pretty explicit (ie: You have to be one to ask your S.links if you want to take it to the next level)

 

[sackboy2197]

It's a complicated team dynamic that the Zero Escape series portrays where it's in everyone's best interest to trust each other and cooperate, but because of the circumstances, blind faith in each other is impossible. As the game progresses, the team as a whole strengthens, people start to trust each other more (making some betrayals all the more stunning) and a real sense of camaraderie starts to arise.

I agree, I loved Zero Escape's characters even though weren't supposed to be "likable" from the start. It was an interesting and very different kind of relationship which worked totally well.


Regarding S.Links, the thing I'd like the most is them not being so repetitive and in particular I'd like them to have an impact on the stories. I'm not saying to change every line in the game for every rank up you do, but for example in P4 you coul be dating someone and that would never come up during their meetings. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[InsaneElite]

I think the most common solution I've seen to savescumming like that is simply spreading out the determining variables over time. If it's just a single binary decision, it'll absolutely cause a do-over. If it's something caused by hours of gameplay, people are far less likely to go through all of that again. The mechanics can't be too obtuse, obviously; a player can't treat a character positively and then get a surprise reverse S. Link 20 hours in.

I think, if S. Links are to remain in some form in Persona, I want to see choice more emphasized, and management. They feel almost devoid of thought in their current form: don't say something obviously mean to a character, bring a Persona of the respective Arcana with you, look up a guide for a perfect run. I would honestly welcome the idea of it being impossible to max out all S. Links, and stretching yourself as thin as possible had negative consequences (even the biggest extroverts I know mention needing their downtime). I think there is room for a certain sense of tension, as opposed to just being a checklist. Less, but more involved S. Links that impact each other and the story, and require thought to positively maintain.

I was also in favor of P3 only letting you control the protagonist, so I suppose I have a background of removing a certain amount of accessibility and player control if it assists the story and themes.

 

[buddha0991]

Man, its crazy listening to a podcast of people who are so enthusiastic about Devil Survivor 2 when it is my most disappointing Megaten game in a long time.

and Persona 1 gets some love, im one of em, come at me. I don't feel like they are SMT characters in Persona uniforms at all. Come. At. Me. BROOOOOOOOOOOOS.

 

[Kazzy]

Man, its crazy listening to a podcast of people who are so enthusiastic about Devil Survivor 2 when it is my most disappointing Megaten game in a long time.

and Persona 1 gets some love, im one of em, come at me. I don't feel like they are SMT characters in Persona uniforms at all. Come. At. Me. BROOOOOOOOOOOOS.

The hands of fate have brought us together.

 

[buddha0991]

^How didyou feel about DeSu1?

The hands of fate have brought us together.

Also, when people ask for a more dark game, I don't think people are asking for absolutely no humor.

 

[Squire]

Hey guys, Erin Fitzgerald (Chie 2012) said earlier today she's going to play my waifu Junko in Dangan Ronpa. Sweet!

 

[buddha0991]

Oh god you guys actually read my question, but without the kidding part I put in! ...and my question baited Persona 1 hate, I reap what i sew.

BTW, P2 makes you care about P1 characters retroactively.

Shadows fit the series very well, but the problem with them is their blandness in design and their lack of variety. Work on that in 5, and we are all cool.

 

[fertygo]

Btw guys, its kinda kill my IS playing mood that

Spoiler

Yukino

leaving the party
My favorite party member ;__;

 

[buddha0991]

^

Did you play Persona 1? Also spoiler that.

 

[Squire]

That's happens? That's lame.

And thanks for the spoiler. Geez, man. ;(

 

[buddha0991]

That's happens? That's lame.

And thanks for the spoiler. Geez, man. ;(

Discussing the spoiler above slightly more.

Spoiler

Based on what you love about the character, I think it will make you like her even more. It makes her an even stronger character with the way she exits.

 

[fertygo]

^

Did you play Persona 1? Also spoiler that.

Whoops, fixed it.

Well I playing just for 3 hour before stopping in the past, maybe I'd get back to that after finishing IS.. feel I missing something with these P1 cameo.

That's happens? That's lame.

And thanks for the spoiler. Geez, man. ;(

Damn, a minute too late.
I feel really bad now.

 

[buddha0991]

Whoops, fixed it.

Well I playing just for 3 hour before stopping in the past, maybe I'd get back to that after finishing IS.. feel I missing something with these P1 cameo.

Depending on how you feel about P1 when you play it, you may or may not. Also, (P1 spoiler)

Spoiler

Yukino leaves super early in P1 main SEBEC story too. She is a full party member in the alternate story, the Snow Queen Quest.

 

[Squire]

Discussing the spoiler above slightly more.

Spoiler

Based on what you love about the character, I think it will make you like her even more. It makes her an even stronger character with the way she exits.

I could get behind that, then.

I have to say, the game has definitely entered that space in the back of my head reserved for games I know I should finish, and that is a good thing.

 

[buddha0991]

I could get behind that, then.

I have to say, the game has definitely entered that space in the back of my head reserved for games I know I should finish, and that is a good thing.

What dungeon or part are you on? I have information to share to you if you are close to a part I am thinking of.

 

[fertygo]

Depending on how you feel about P1 when you play it, you may or may not. Also, (P1 spoiler)

Spoiler

Yukino leaves super early in P1 main SEBEC story too. She is a full party member in the alternate story, the Snow Queen Quest.

Spoiler

Yeah, I know that..

Question

Spoiler

Does playing P1 helping me to (needed) understand Kei Nanjo?
That's what leave in fence to goes straight to EP or not

 

[buddha0991]

Spoiler

Yeah, I know that..

Question

Spoiler

Does playing P1 helping me to (needed) understand Kei Nanjo?
That's what leave in fence to goes straight to EP or not

In what way? I say it does. P2EP is the end of his development, P1 is the beginning.

 

[sackboy2197]

Hey guys, Erin Fitzgerald (Chie 2012) said earlier today she's going to play my waifu Junko in Dangan Ronpa. Sweet!

Not sure how to feel about it. I love her voice and I'm very curious to see how she will handle it. It's definitely different from what she did in P4G.

I love DanganRonpa. Is anyone getting the limited on the Nisa Store? I'm tempted, but the shipment is too expensive for Europe.