Adding to this, there is no Persona compendium, there is no calendar system, or social links, there is no fusion spells, the mode is locked on hard mode. Don't forget that you don't have full party control in P3FES, only general ai behavior orders, and don't forget the ruleset for P3FES on a whole is more punishing than P3P/P4. I say do it son. DO IT.
Also Levito, as a whole, the Devil Summoner brand is honestly more light hearted than Persona at times.
some people may exaggerate the strengths of their favorite things while marginalizing the aspects of things they don't like, but I don't think that'd ever really happen in practice.
Whoa now, where did I say "x makes y" less powerful? I said people that insist Persona 3 is super dark in contrast to Persona 4 are being a bit silly. People often sell P3 like its has no humor, silliness, or lightheartedness of it's own. Like it's all business and no fun, that's what I was getting at. P3 has plenty of fun too, yo.
Made it to November in P4G, and I'm coming to the realization that I'm gonna be pretty sad when I'm finally done with this game. I don't think I've liked a collective group of characters in a game as much as I do with P4G (not to disrespect other ensembles in games I've enjoyed such as Persona 3 and Mass Effect). Reminds me of a strong cast of a quality TV show. Guess I better relish what's left.
Made it to November in P4G, and I'm coming to the realization that I'm gonna be pretty sad when I'm finally done with this game. I don't think I've liked a collective group of characters in a game as much as I do with P4G (not to disrespect other ensembles in games I've enjoyed such as Persona 3 and Mass Effect). Reminds me of a strong cast of a quality TV show. Guess I better relish what's left.
Thankfully, you still have like 20 hours left, but yeah. Persona games have strong characters, and pound for pound P4's cast is probably the strongest in all of gaming.
Still remember my first time playing vanilla P4, and then going through P4G the first time and seeing all of the new scenes. ALL of the feels.
Well put stuff. And you're right in that the game is flawed compared to its sequel, with 4 improving on the gameplay.
And yeah, 3 isn't quite the best in the Villain department sadly...
That said, even as flawed as 3 is compared to 4, I'd say it's my personal favorite, so reading your posts as you played through the game has been great stuff.
Glad you liked it Corvo. There was something very special about P3 when it first came out. It was very unique and I had not played a JRPG like it ever. I imagine playing P4 before it can sort of takes some of that away from the experience. It's always tough reading criticism for that game
FeMC will always just be a fun detour for me though. She's good but I will never think of her first when I think about Persona 3.
Yeah, I do think that playing 4 prior to 3 probably diminished 3 somewhat in my eyes. I can certainly appreciate how unique the game must have been when it first came out.
Persona 3 is undoubtedly "darker" than Persona 4. However, like you said, it's quite overblown. People act like
losing Makoto
suddenly propels this game into George R. R. Martin territory. It's like... guys, this is a game were your robot girlfriend has conversations with a dog. She speaks the dog language, you see.
Having just started Soul Hackers, I'm already having a similar reaction to the one you just had. For all the touting I hear tr00 Megaten fans saying how dark an mature the rest of the brand is outside of Persona, I'm not very impressed thus far.
Like, there's a lot of these tr00 fans that unironically call Persona 4 "Scooby Doo". Yet in Soul Hackers, you're part of a group of teenage hackers called the "Spookies"--and they drive around in a van with a cartoon ghost logo on it. I don't know if being tr00 also means you're blind and stupid as well, but it sure seems that way.
Also, the rate at which some of you complete insanely long RPG's blows my mind time and time again.
So I think the problem I'm having is just the sort of connotations that words like "dark," "serious," and "mature" carry. That said I can acknowledge some difference in tone or structure, but then again the things I might attribute to that happen at the same time that similar events happen in P4. So for instance
the last month of P3 and the last month of P4. While P3 has the whole "we all gonna die" thing, pretty much the rest about the cults and hysteria is the same.
Adding to this, there is no Persona compendium, there is no calendar system, or social links, there is no fusion spells, the mode is locked on hard mode. Don't forget that you don't have full party control in P3FES, only general ai behavior orders, and don't forget the ruleset for P3FES on a whole is more punishing than P3P/P4. I say do it son. DO IT.
Also Levito, as a whole, the Devil Summoner brand is honestly more light hearted than Persona at times.
some people may exaggerate the strengths of their favorite things while marginalizing the aspects of things they don't like, but I don't think that'd ever really happen in practice.
Well put stuff. And you're right in that the game is flawed compared to its sequel, with 4 improving on the gameplay.
And yeah, 3 isn't quite the best in the Villain department sadly...
That said, even as flawed as 3 is compared to 4, I'd say it's my personal favorite, so reading your posts as you played through the game has been great stuff.
You know, I can see people liking 3 over 4. 3 is, I don't know, more stylish? I have a hard time articulating some of these things. But I certainly think that 3 is a great game and whether you like 3 or 4 you're set because 3 is still pretty darn great.
It's entirely possible that the perceived darkness of P3 is helped along by its colour pallet. The main colours of the game are very dark, cold colours, dark blue, grey, white, black, dark red, dark purple etc.
Aigis is the prefect exception to this. The games main theme is about death and mortality, which the darker colour pallet lends itself to. Aigis on the other hand is all about finding her meaning for living, and her colours (white, yellow, bright red) help her to stand out against the darkness.
Also contrasting P3 main colours against P4 (yellow, green, orange, bright red, bright blue), it's a lot easier to see why the tone of the game is perceived as darker, even though P4 still has very dark themes to it,
murder, kidnapping, family deaths, world destruction, betrayal, mental health issues
Also contrasting P3 main colours against P4 (yellow, green, orange, bright red, bright blue), it's a lot easier to see why the tone of the game is perceived as darker, even though P4 still has very dark themes to it,
murder, kidnapping, family deaths, world destruction, betrayal, mental health issues
See, I struggle with this, though, because both of those come along in both of the games. I mean,
both games have murders, kidnappings, family deaths, the world is at stake, crazy cults pop up at the end of the game, someone close to the player party betrays them, etc.
There's a difference, but I'm just not 1) comfortable with the established description and 2) able to really put into words yet what that difference is.
In all honesty I don't know how much I care that an RPG be "dark" anyway. It occurs to me that in my case it's rarely stuff like that that sells me on the game. I really liked SMT4, but not because of the whole "Oh no God is a jerk and Satan too" aspect, but more because it felt like a survival horror kind of RPG. Like it was "Zombie Demon Apocalypse: The RPG." In P3P I liked the guys vs girls aspect, in P4 it was the way the cast reflected so much of the people I knew.
Like, you can be "dark" and be a pretty bad RPG because it comes across as melodrama instead of important drama to characters and players.
I have a question about SMT and Persona based in P3's ending, though, it's fairly general but there are some spoilers so I'll mark it.
So in the last battle Nyx references not "The Fall" where Nyx would destroy the world, but "The Fall" when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit. Just for clarification's sake: Persona and SMT aren't the same universe, right? So does this mean that Adam's Fall happened in the Persona universe?
So I think the problem I'm having is just the sort of connotations that words like "dark," "serious," and "mature" carry. That said I can acknowledge some difference in tone or structure, but then again the things I might attribute to that happen at the same time that similar events happen in P4. So for instance
the last month of P3 and the last month of P4. While P3 has the whole "we all gonna die" thing, pretty much the rest about the cults and hysteria is the same.
Recent years? It's always been that way. It's the nature of any entertainment industry that starts out aimed at kids. Eventually those kids grow up and increasingly need some kind of justification to stick around. I feel like the comic book industry goes through this cycle all the time.
But yeah, "dark" is a really bad and overused "catch-all" phrase. It carries different meanings to different people. To me, "darkness" is uncertainty, it comes out a fear of not having an answer. Like in a movie or show where a really horrible truth is revealed that we all know but hide from ourselves. Or more physically, some kind of monster that can't be beaten. When we face that kind of uncertainty that we feel fear. But like I said, that's my definition. Dark is too simple of a word to really use.
Unfortunately, dark is all too often used just for anything that's gritty, violent, or overly philosophical. People are just tricked by what seems "dark" aesthetically, rather than really appreciating what's on the inside. "fear through uncertainty" is like all things, just a storytelling element. It doesn't make a story better than others. It's about how it's used. Personally I enjoy some contrast, which I think P3 and P4 are good at. Contrasting lighthearted aesthetics with more depressing subjects better emphasizes both themes. Like in P3, has themes are about remembering your mortality, but it's contrasted against having fun with friends. In the end, it makes the game less about being depressed (oh no I'm gonna die) and more about using the life you still have to the fullest.
I know I've said it a million times, but it bears repeating:
I've always seen Persona 3 as cold and detached, rather than dark. It has some mature themes, and some of the scenes definitely deal with more adult subjects than what you'd see in most games, let alone what you'd see in most JRPGs, but I think the term 'dark' should be reserved for horror games and the like.
So in the last battle Nyx references not "The Fall" where Nyx would destroy the world, but "The Fall" when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit. Just for clarification's sake: Persona and SMT aren't the same universe, right?
Nope. The way this works is SMT itself doesnt have a concrete universe. SMT1, SMT Imagine, SMT NINE and SMT2 all take place in the same one, but then Nocturne, Strange Journey, and IV seem to all be in different universes.
The Persona games, SMT If..., the PS2 Devil Summoner games, and the Saturn/PS1/3DS Devil Summoner games seem to take place in the same universe.
See, I struggle with this, though, because both of those come along in both of the games. I mean,
both games have murders, kidnappings, family deaths, the world is at stake, crazy cults pop up at the end of the game, someone close to the player party betrays them, etc.
There's a difference, but I'm just not 1) comfortable with the established description and 2) able to really put into words yet what that difference is.
I think you misunderstand my meaning, I'm agreeing with you in saying that both games have equally dark themes to them, it's just that P4 has it shown behind a much brighter pallet, and that could be why people consider it the 'darker' game thematically.
The games have very similar structures to their themes, that's why I find it strange that that people consider them to be contrasting games in theme. However it is undeniable that they are contrasting in their colour pallets, and this purely visual difference could be what warps people's perceptions.
Although I like P4's story more, I have to say that P3's themes are actually better suited to the mechanics of those games. Clearly the team designed P3's calendar system around the themes of "mortality", since you realize you only have a finite time to do things. As you roll into the game's final act, all of the game's social links come back to you and the whole theme of spending your time to the fullest hits you in the head, it's pretty great.
Don't get me wrong, they still managed to design P4's themes around this as well. In fact, I think social links worked even better for the idea of people finding themselves. I just like marveling at how much effort Hashino's team put into designing a game that mechanically fit all of the themes they wanted to hit.
No, I disagree. People are always clamouring for "Dark" reboots and adaptations these days, far more so than in the past.
A piece of media being "dark" did not carry the same connotations 10 years ago that it does now. Take a movie like Edward Scissorhands, that movie is gothic, depressing, dark aesthetics, etc. It was considered a dark film in ways aside from it's tone, because once upon a time there was multiple ways in how a film was perceived as "dark".
There days, "dark" means gritty, visceral, violent, brooding, and """"""""MATURE"""""""".
Congrats on making it to the end dude. You're absolutely crazy for effectively playing through the same game twice, but I definitely appreciate it; it made one hell of a recap.
In regards to P3, my thoughts mostly align with yours.
Male side is not as good as Female side. Well it just isn't. I mean, Sun, Hanged Man, Tower and Hierophant were pretty good Social Links, and some like Swim and What's-His-Name-Other-Athlete were okay, but there were duds like Chihiro, Kenji, Nozomi and the like in there, too. Note that the "duds" are not all duds for the same reasons. Chihiro's suffers from being fairly boring, where Kenji's and Nozomi's suffer from being shit. MAYA IS AMAZING AND I CRIED SO HARD AT THE END OF THAT SOCIAL LINK ON THE LAST DAY OF SCHOOL.
Agreed. The really improved on writing social links after Persona 4.
Persona 3 is a game about husbandos. Sorry, Mitsuru, Yukari, Aigis et al, but P3 is all about them husbandos. From the glorious Theo to the maddening unattainable status of Junpei, the dudes and the pursuit of them had me most entertained where Social Links were concerned.
Haha! I felt like P4 had way stronger husbandos, but to each one's own. What did you think of the other female side husbandos (bebe, hidetoshi, etc)?
Now, for the final tally of the cast:
Clara and Makoto were what I made of them, which is how it should be. If you really are one of those people who doesn't like FeMC or devalues her because she's "not canon" I urge, implore, and plead with you to pull the stick out from up your butt and learn to have fun, canon be damned. This isn't the dark ages, we are not medieval serfs who must obtain canon through the mouths of a select few. Welcome to the Enlightenment Era of Canon, guys. Take a deep breath and shape your own experience.
This, this, this, this THIS. The amount of people who lambaste FeMC for not being canon is disturbing... to say the least. I've been derided for merely suggesting that someone should consider playing through FeMC's path for the first time. PersonaGAF is pretty understanding for the most part, but the rest of the internet consider's Makoto Yuki's path as "sacrosanct." Screw trying to play as FeMC; you need to play as Makoto Yuki or the world ends NOW. It's honestly pretty disheartening to see people put down FeMC for something as tenuous as "not being canon" (Do people get off on canoncity? Who cares) so you can imagine my surprise when you actually agreed to playing through her story.
Junpei was Best Boy I mean, obviously Delicious Theodore was Best MAN, but Junpei really grew over the course of the game. He started out a serious loser who embodied all of the shit traits Acid08 thinks Yosuke has, and quickly shed them to become one of my favorite characters in the game. His relationship with Clara, and its constant dancing around the "will they won't they" was hands down the best written relationship in the game, as Junpei ran the full gamut of teenage boy emotions when dealing with girls. Absolutely loved him.
Aigis was Best Girl. Don't get me wrong, Mitsuru was Hottest Girl, by like, an infinite margin, but I mean, come on. The way that her voice actress manages to go from sounding gratingly robotic to deeply human by the game's ending? Hat's off to that. The
moment she cries for you at the end of the game?
Flipping amazing. I'd go so far as to say that on the Male Side of the game, Aigis is hands down the best character. Her S-Link, I understand, was added in, but I really loved that one. Particularly the moment she
confides that she's slowly grown to be jealous of the couples she finds embracing on the rooftop
because that's such a great little detail. Loved Aigis.
Aigis was the chosen girl. Some people not agree with that assessment, but she was absolutely fantastic in Persona 3.
Mitsuru is next best because holy crap have you seen her? A genius babe who is fucking LOADED, has a motorcycle, is utterly reliant on me for emotional support AND engages in mealtime hijinks? AND SHE'S A RED HEAD? I mean you may as well just put a sticker over her portrait saying "ALL YO WET DREAMS HERE SON" and there you go. Might be a little shallow in that respect, but with all due respect to the character, she actually does a fantastic job filling the leader role out and at the same time demonstrating why she herself did not hold onto it after you arrived.
No kidding. Mitsuru literally has all of my fetishes rolled up into one person (Gorgeous red head who's super smart, a swordswoman AND speaks french?) I'm surprised I don't like her more!
Yukari got better as the game went on. She's not my favorite girl, but I probably did hang out with a lot of girls who behaved just like her, and true to form, Yukari had depths beneath that salty exterior of hers that helped her to improve. As the female foil to Junpei and predecessor to Chie I feel like she didn't quite measure up, but she certainly ceased to be the pain in the ass she was for the first four months of the game or so.
If I may take one moment to address a final complaint with the game,
though, it's that I felt that, short of
Nyx
what Persona 3 lacked in comparison to Persona 4's narrative was a compelling villain. Persona 4's villain, the murderer, is an unseen force who is never the less a constant threat and presence throughout the plot, and their unmasking lives up to the game's hype. Until
The Sagiri and Izanami
step into the plot, there's very little in the way of a villain who is not the game's central foe. Certainly there are brief distractions in the form of
two false killers
but on the whole, the villain aspect of the plot was much more focused than P3's, I felt. I've already addressed my disappointment with the fact that
Shadow Jesus and Ikutsuki were not the same person at all,
but beyond that, Strega felt too weak a threat to ever consider the main villains, even as they tried and tried to play up Takaya's cred. Even after
he brings serious injury to two loved ones
he was too pathetic for me to even bother
trying to off.
And Jin. Oh God, JIN. Now there is a loser who'd make FF's Biggs and Wedge seem like competent threats. But the point is, between
Takaya, Ikutsuki and Ryoji
there just sort of felt like a lack of a really compelling foe because the role had become too divided in the game.
No, I disagree. People are always clamouring for "Dark" reboots and adaptations these days, far more so than in the past.
A piece of media being "dark" did not carry the same connotations 10 years ago that it does now. Take a movie like Edward Scissorhands, that movie is gothic, depressing, dark aesthetics, etc. It was considered a dark film in ways aside from it's tone, because once upon a time there was multiple ways in how a film was perceived as "dark".
There days, "dark" means gritty, visceral, violent, brooding, and """"""""MATURE"""""""".
I dunno man, I think dark meaning "gritty, visceral, violent, brooding, and """"""MATURE"""'"", has existed at least since Marvel comics decided to use those exact themes in the late 80's early 90's in all of their comic books to appeal to an older demographic and make more headway against DC. Wrestling had an era like that too.
I think The Dark Knight was less about being gritty visceral, violent, and brooding and more about being a really realistic take on batman, almost to the point that it's not even batman. Since then the trend has been more take out fantastical elements of children's comic books and make it feel "raw" and "plausible". But quite frankly, this was already happening with Bayformers along with a lot of stuff. I've never really thought of TDK as dark, but just a very realistic take.
The idea of maturing up a kid's story has been happening for a long time. Although, I think TDK is my point of contention. I don't really see that as being the catalyst to what you're talking about. Honestly, the bigger trend is "darkifying" fairy tales, thanks to good ol' Twilight. TDK has been influential, but I feel like we're talking about two different trends. But we're splitting hairs here. Regardless of where and when it originated, it's a real and endlessly frustrating trend that clearly annoys us both.
Persona 3 is undoubtedly "darker" than Persona 4. However, like you said, it's quite overblown. People act like
losing Makoto
suddenly propels this game into George R. R. Martin territory. It's like... guys, this is a game were your robot girlfriend has conversations with a dog. She speaks the dog language, you see.
Having just started Soul Hackers, I'm already having a similar reaction to the one you just had. For all the touting I hear tr00 Megaten fans saying how dark an mature the rest of the brand is outside of Persona, I'm not very impressed thus far.
Like, there's a lot of these tr00 fans that unironically call Persona 4 "Scooby Doo". Yet in Soul Hackers, you're part of a group of teenage hackers called the "Spookies"--and they drive around in a van with a cartoon ghost logo on it. I don't know if being tr00 also means you're blind and stupid as well, but it sure seems that way.
Soul Hackers isn't "dark" or "mature". Neither is P3.
I'd say Nocturne and DDS are the darkest of the series, but moreso for their atmosphere than the actual content. And they're still not that dark. DDS is kinda bloody though.
QUESTION: At what point should I go ahead and order a US 2DS for PQ? Is it worth waiting to see if it comes out in the UK reasonably fast? Or should I just bite the bullet and order one plus SMT4 so that I'm ready on launch? Also, how is the SMT4 collector's edition stuff? Is the art book any good?
watch the final cutscene in FES, it has a really nice touch that's sorely missing from P3P
. The Answer's story is... okay, mainly for how it explains exactly what happened at the end of The Journey. I don't think its until then that it really shows how it is a much more negative/darker game than P4.
