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Persona Community Thread |OT5| Pull up a chair! [NO PQ OR P4U SPOILERS!]
- Thread starter Dantis
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...What? You're talking about voice acting without taking into account other development factors such as QA, art assets, writing, programming, etc. If anyone's ignoring or dismissing any statements, that would be you. I'm asking for facts, not hypotheses.
Green Mamba
Member
I think it's worth noting that P5 is a much bigger game budget and time wise than P3 and P4.
Goodness gracious. I'm not ignoring any of that. The only things I've said is that good design minimizes both the work (including those areas) and cost of adding in things like a second gender when considered in the design from the beginning. That, and everything I've seen says one of the largest costs of doing multiple genders (and races, in the case of when this was brought up) was multiple voices in Dragon Age and other Bioware games.
So please, just calm down. Agree to disagree. Because what I'm saying is obviously not getting through to you, and you think what you're saying is not getting through to me. I'm going to leave it at that.
SloaneRisette
Member
Gosh some people can't make posts without the word Kappa huh
Get it because I'm being passive aggressive huehuehue
Which is why I agree with Thei that, of course, if the game is designed this way from the ground up, it's no issue.
I think you (and definitely Dantis) are arguing under the assumption they're doubling back to change something. I'm saying: What if, from it's very inception, the game is both written and designed to accommodate male and female characters? I'm not talking about separate routes, but a story that works with either gender. If that's more expensive at all, the cost is going to be minimal and it's definitely not going to come from the writing. That is an absurd notion.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Because one of modern Persona's famous things now is the dating aspect (and Im sure P5 will have this in one way or another), yeah, theres a huge female fanbase, probably more than other games, but still the majority is male. And from that portion theres a great part that has absolute no interest in playing a female character with male relationships (others dont give a fuck, and others would probably like it, but the majority those are not).
This is not, let's say AC with a female character, or an optional male/female without dating game like Pokemon or Saint's Row, here you are forcing a huge portion of the fans that wouldn't like having relationships with a male to do it or just not play one part of the game.
I know, I know... Females have to do the same thing right now, and that's why I am all for it for an optional female main character like P3P, but if we take into consideration the fanbase, you know they are not going to shit all over the majority of it.
Another possibility is getting rid in P5 of any kind of dating whatsoever, that would make an only female character easier to swallow to those kind of people.
But again, as funny as it may sound, dating (lol, yeah 2 or 3 small events) your favourite character in Persona is a selling point for some people, so it would also be a financial stupidity to take it away.
Thats why it may sound pessimist, but sadly it's the reality of how things work.
IMO optional protagonists is the way to go for this series, really. Or at least, if it's so much of a cost for them, always make the second versions have this aspect.
Yeah, it's had a pretty long development cycle, and it is safe to assume the budget was probably bigger. What with the series being Atlus's cash crow franchise now.
It's hard to say how they've done anything on Persona 5, seeing as we have no info on it. Realistically I'm hoping the story was written with both genders in mind, as you said.
Stop saying "agree to disagree". This issue concerns neither; agreeing or disagreeing doesn't alter reality in terms of budget allocations. What I asked for was a source concerning this statement that you seemed pretty authoritative on:
So far, you haven't given an actual source despite saying that you've seen a lot pointing to that conclusion. That is what I am addressing.
Wow, that's very close minded of you. Best check your privilege, you reddit fedora.
...Then how do they take waifus?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Im not going to bring the source, becuase I really don't remember where I read it, but Im pretty sure what he says is what I read from Bioware talking about main character budgets.
Persona doesn't have this problem though, they just need to make 2 different scenes for the romance parts (and the more costly ones will be the ones they decide to voice, something I think only happen in Golden IIRC).
They have in spanish!
and french type chair is my waifu!
I can't get into Idle Thumbs. Whenever I try to listen to that podcast, I feel so out of the loop.
My old man chair in my living room says otherwise. You insensitive monster.
Something like that sounds interesting, but I guess I'll have to try to seek out the info myself.
The VA isn't the same situation in both games and P5 might not have full voice acting anyways, but having concrete information on how adding gender options affects budget in video games would be great.
Green Mamba
Member
I agree with SpacePirate Ridley, a gender option is the way to go in this series.
Actually I even think visually customizable characters (to a certain degree, like Fire Emblem Awakening) is the way to go. The only problem I see with that is anime cutscenes, and I've never been a fan of those anyway, fuck 'em.
Actually I even think visually customizable characters (to a certain degree, like Fire Emblem Awakening) is the way to go. The only problem I see with that is anime cutscenes, and I've never been a fan of those anyway, fuck 'em.
You don't need a source for that claim as it's common sense to anyone familiar with the games. It's the exact same script. Where the cost comes in: 1) Modeling the different version of the MC, male or female 2) Voice recording.
For the first DA you could play each race, but you used the same character creator BioWare did to make every character in the game, same as Mass Effect, so it's a non-issue. The first game had no voice acting for the main character either, except for call-outs (like Persona) all provided by actors already cast in the game. Really expensive, right?
For the second, you had an extremely limited character creator and two vocal tracks for the MC.
Again, the notion that either of these scenarios was very costly at all is absurd. Particularly the first.
But then how can they do an anime and then another anime based on that anime?
And the cash cow thing is why I don't think they're going to even include two protagonists. This game still needs to make money and, imo, they're going to stick with what works. That means a very similar game structure and a silent male protagonist. Hell, more people are probably going to not buy the game because it's on PS3 than any protagonist gender decisions.Yeah, it's had a pretty long development cycle, and it is safe to assume the budget was probably bigger. What with the series being Atlus's cash crow franchise now.
SloaneRisette
Member
They could always do some "this is the canon appearance" thing similar to ME3
Oh yeah, it's all hypothetical right now.
Fair enough. I do hope they would be bolder than that, though.
I've never seen that mentioned before and I have my doubts that it is supposed to be common knowledge. I don't claim to know how costly these things actually are without the actual information, and apparently at least the VA is very costly.
Man, just think of all the non-canon protagonists we'll be able to lament about!
hipsterpants
Member
This is a bit late but regarding P5 spoiling and what not. Won't the entire supporting cast get spoiled in the into scene anyway? Or it could be like P4 and just have them all on the cover art lol. Unless we get a real twist in terms of a party member I don't Atlus will hide them.
I actually rewatched the original P3 intro to see if it did the same thing. It's surprisingly spoiler-ific, but they don't show either Ken or Koromaru.
I actually rewatched the original P3 intro to see if it did the same thing. It's surprisingly spoiler-ific, but they don't show either Ken or Koromaru.
Designing the game with both genders in mind without changing much is possible. The story can be written without much emphasis on the protagonist's genders. Unlike P4 where it seemed like a female protag wouldn't fit as well. The would have to alter Social Links, but only the end of the S. Links would have to be changed. The story for each of the S. Link characters can remain the same, but then the relationship aspect which comes at the end would have to be changed.
They would also have to add new dialogue for male and female Social Links for events like Christmas, Valentine's Day, etc. But for the most part, I think either gender would work without many changes.
They would also have to add new dialogue for male and female Social Links for events like Christmas, Valentine's Day, etc. But for the most part, I think either gender would work without many changes.
What this boils down to is an issue of personal priorities and tastes.
Adding options always costs money, and this is not a disputable fact. Budgets are zero-sum games where features compete for limited resources. There is no magic bullet of "good design" that gets around this. Money spent one place is not money that can be spent somewhere else.
THAT SAID
Some people are willing to give up some extra polish for extra options. This is a completely valid opinion and approach.
However, some people would also like to see them commit to one road and drive it, for maximum polish. This is the side that Dantis, Flux, and I fall on. Likewise, this is a completely valid opinion and approach to design.
Adding options always costs money, and this is not a disputable fact. Budgets are zero-sum games where features compete for limited resources. There is no magic bullet of "good design" that gets around this. Money spent one place is not money that can be spent somewhere else.
THAT SAID
Some people are willing to give up some extra polish for extra options. This is a completely valid opinion and approach.
However, some people would also like to see them commit to one road and drive it, for maximum polish. This is the side that Dantis, Flux, and I fall on. Likewise, this is a completely valid opinion and approach to design.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Even if I wouldn't mind this (I already name Yu with my name in P4) I think the Persona team likes to give their main characters some kind of personality with the design (and choices), at least that's what I get from when I read when Soejima talks about the main character designs in the artbook, to go with the game.
Now that they want to ditch 2D portraits (from what I heard) they could make a Mass Effect situation (there's a canon guy but you can still do yourself), but I still think they would not like the idea (as for them it probably conveys a lot of negatives from a design standpoint) and making a good character creator is not as easy as it sounds and also rather costly.
Voiceover is really expensive. One of the reasons Star Wars: The Old Republic was one of the most expensive videogames ever($200 Million dollars) despite being just another WoW clone was because there was a ridiculous amount of voiceover.
I think you are making an exceptionally large amount of assumptions on something we have virtually no info about. Especially in regards to your last sentence and the platform.
VA is costly. But then, as everyone who played it knows (heh), Dragon Age II wasn't a very costly project overall. Not by EA standards, at least. That's as plain as day. But I guess that's what it comes down to; You have to have played the games. With that and pretty basic knowledge about game development, this is all common knowledge, yes.
I meant in terms of there being multiple gender options. Of course VA itself is very expensive.
You really think those two things give you accurate perception regarding a specific development studio's budget allocations in terms of gender options?
Hot Coldman
Banned
or they could have an appearance option available that is blatantly superior to the others, like how all the trainers in Pokemon XY were black women wearing a trenchcoat
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Persona 5: People Will Bitch
This is true, DkS II and SMT4 were minefields of half-informed oratory from people with agendas from all angles (most being exaggerated bullshit), so I've learned there's little to look for in them so I won't.
I don't care as long as they ain't a boring and/or douchey character. If there's not, there will be bitching though. (also, sky is blue, fire hot)
This is true, DkS II and SMT4 were minefields of half-informed oratory from people with agendas from all angles (most being exaggerated bullshit), so I've learned there's little to look for in them so I won't.
I don't care as long as they ain't a boring and/or douchey character. If there's not, there will be bitching though. (also, sky is blue, fire hot)
Green Mamba
Member
Yeah, I wouldn't even remotely consider customizable characters likely in anyway. Just a personal wish of mine.
And where have you heard they want to ditch the 2D portraits? That would be pretty disappointing for me. I love those damn things. Games these days don't have enough drawn art in them.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
I think I read it in a P5 thread? I don't really know, maybe Im totally wrong. I also like the 2D portraits.
Well, keep in mind that the voice acting costs don't just apply to the MC's actor. In games where you can name the character, like the first Dragon Age, any character who refers to the MC can only do so as "he/she," "him/her," and so forth, so all of those lines have to be duplicated too. (Presumably this is why both genders of MC in DA2 are just "Hawke" and it's simply "Commander Shepard" in the Mass Effect games.)
This is a bit easier to fudge in Japanese, which doesn't rely as much on gendered pronouns.
The presentation was mentioned in a previous interview. I want to assume it was Hashino who said it, but as I don't have that interview on hand I can't say for sure. I would personally expect a presentation similar to Catherine however.
Heh. There are a few rare cases in Persona 3 Portable where the gender pronouns were missed a bit. Such as Fuuka calling Theodore a "She", and one of Junpei's lines referring to the female protagonist as a guy in a battle.
Heh. There are a few rare cases in Persona 3 Portable where the gender pronouns were missed a bit. Such as Fuuka calling Theodore a "She", and one of Junpei's lines referring to the female protagonist as a guy in a battle.
That's true, yes. I notice though, in games like that they seem to try to avoid having to use those terms as much as possible. Obviously you can only go so far though, so that stuff does come up.
Yes. There's no mystery here. It's the same script with different models and (sometimes only slightly altered as NichM notes) voice acting.
hipsterpants
Member
I just don't see them designing every scene in the game to be gender neutral and even less they creating alternative guy/girl scenarios for every scene where gender is a factor. There's also the problem of if Atlus wants to create expanded universe stuff like Dancing All Night or Arena it means they have to choose a specific gender and make that "canon." (FeMC part II: electric boogaloo) The S. Links would also have to be balanced so that half the high schooler S. Links aren't just female love-interests.
Also I think Golden shows that Atlus is very aware of Persona's audience.
Not that I particularly care either way. If there were enough differences I would love to play through a second time as a female.
Also I think Golden shows that Atlus is very aware of Persona's audience.
Not that I particularly care either way. If there were enough differences I would love to play through a second time as a female.
The thing about the platform is mostly just based on the reactions we've all seen on here. Sooooo much bitching about the platform from people who don't own PS3's anymore. And we're all making assumptions here because we don't know anything.
Though I don't think think them playing it safe is too much of an assumption.
"Playing it safe" is not the same thing as "they won't use two protagonists", especially when we have no info about the game's design to begin with. To try and make a call like that at this point is a bit irrational.
Also I wouldn't take people's reactions in here (who are a small, but vocal group) as a representation as a whole. Someone at Atlus clearly feels it is safer to go with the PlayStation 3. Given recent events with their previous parent company going bankrupt, can you blame them?
I didn't say it was the wrong decision to put it on PS3. Just that the platform choice might lose them more sales than the decision to not include two protagonists. Not saying it'll lose them any kind of significant sales overall.
If their decision is to just use a male protagonist then I would consider that playing it safe. It's giving people what they expect(based on past games) and what some no doubt want. You could say that almost everything posted in the past couple pages is irrational because we don't know anything. Does that mean we can't express what we think? Naw.
I gave you the source from the developer. Do I have a link to a forum discussion I read a year or so ago? No, of course fucking not. My goodness.
In one ear, out the other I suppose.
Multiple voices is multiple voices. Two genders means another voice. Its expensive because you're adding another voice for a main character that has a shit ton of lines.
That's not a source, that's you referring to a source. Do you think "I heard from [academic authority/researcher] that [claim]" would fly in academic writing as a "source"?
Speaking of in one ear and out the other, do you not recall that I was talking about how the cost compared to other fields in development?
SloaneRisette
Member
2late
They didn't realize they had the other options, no?
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