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[FluxWaveZ]

The

Spoiler

need for the realization that you can't change the past and that you need to learn to move on

is a big enough reason for me to give Elizabeth the

Spoiler

Fool arcana

. It would also tie in nicely with

Spoiler

her previous arcana

.

Hm, well reading the Wikipedia page on

Spoiler

The Fool, I suppose the journey could simply be in terms of gaining wisdom, which Liz would achieve by her various interactions with others. Doesn't seem right, though, and I don't mean because Makoto isn't part of the equation.

That said, Elizabeth is probably the person most fitting of "The Fool" yet. I like this line: "[The Fool] is frequently accompanied by a dog, sometimes seen as his animal desires, sometimes as the call of the "real world", nipping at his heels and distracting him. He is seemingly oblivious that he is walking toward a precipice, apparently about to step off."

 

[Tamanon]

The stills Pan is tweeting from today's P4GA episode really make it look outstanding. Hyped.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

The

Spoiler

need for the realization that you can't change the past and that you need to learn to move on

is a big enough reason for me to give Elizabeth the

Spoiler

Fool arcana

. It would also tie in nicely with

Spoiler

her previous arcana

.

Spoiler

Who said anything about changing the past? You can still set right what's already gone wrong.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

The stills Pan is tweeting from today's P4GA episode really make it look outstanding. Hyped.

Marie's not in?

edit: Nevermind

 

[AquaWateria]

Spoiler

I'll be disappointed if that's all Liz's quest leads up to, because The Answer more or less covered that.

Yeah I would be disappointed as well because that would be a easy way out if they did that.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The stills Pan is tweeting from today's P4GA episode really make it look outstanding. Hyped.

Beating last week's episode would be a tall order, and that's an understatement. Won't check her stills this time; looking forward to seeing how it unfolds.

 

[LelouchViBritannia]

Alright fellas, Im gonna jump on Arena in the next 10 minutes. I'll be in the irc chat to set up some games. See you there.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Alright fellas, Im gonna jump on Arena in the next 10 minutes. I'll be in the irc chat to set up some games. See you there.

PSN?

 

[Setsu00]

Spoiler

Who said anything about changing the past? You can still set right what's already gone wrong.

Yeah I would be disappointed as well because that would be a easy way out if they did that.

Spoiler

"Changing the past" might not have been the best choice of words, I have to admit that. However, I feel like moving on and embracing the sacrifice that Makoto made is a lot harder than simply trying to undo it.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Spoiler

However, I feel like moving on and embracing the sacrifice that Makoto made is a lot harder than simply trying to undo it.

Simply moving on is pretty much impossible

Spoiler

for anyone who was close to him, knowing that he has been condemned to literally suffer for all eternity because of his sacrifice. That's why ex-SEES had their resolution and why Liz wants to save his soul so bad. Even in The Answer, despite the fact that they abandoned the idea to return to the past to attempt to save him, they haven't moved on as they all made a pact to lessen his burden through their actions. His fate kinda sucks.

 

[LelouchViBritannia]

PSN?

Yup.

Psn = PersonaXShenmue

Feel free to add me.

 

[Setsu00]

Simply moving on is pretty much impossible

Spoiler

for anyone who was close to him, knowing that he has been condemned to literally suffer for all eternity because of his sacrifice. That's why ex-SEES had their resolution and why Liz wants to save his soul so bad. Even in The Answer, despite the fact that they abandoned the idea to return to the past to attempt to save him, they haven't moved on as they all made a pact to lessen his burden through their actions. His fate kinda sucks.

I guess you have a point there.

Spoiler

I still think that a failure would be more interesting from a philosophical view, but that's about it

.

That said,

Spoiler

I don't think that a failure is likely. Ultimax seems to be wish fulfillment incarnate, so giving Makoto and Elizabeth a happy ending is probably what's going to happen

.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Yup.

Psn = PersonaXShenmue

Feel free to add me.

Done.

 

[AquaWateria]

Spoiler

"Changing the past" might not have been the best choice of words, I have to admit that. However, I feel like moving on and embracing the sacrifice that Makoto made is a lot harder than simply trying to undo it.

Like Flux said

Spoiler

its pretty much impossible for SEES and Elizabeth to move on knowing that there friend sacrificed everything in order for everybody to live. And for that consequence he's basically stuck in a limbo for eternity, which is really shitty. They have a guilty conscious for that reason which is why they haven't given up more so for Elizabeth.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I guess you have a point there.

Spoiler

I still think that a failure would be more interesting from a philosophical view, but that's about it

.

That said,

Spoiler

I don't think that a failure is likely. Ultimax seems to be wish fulfillment incarnate, so giving Makoto and Elizabeth a happy ending is probably what's going to happen

.

I'm alright with both outcomes, as long as it's addressed properly and satisfyingly. You're right,

Spoiler

an outright failure in Elizabeth attaining her goals would be a very interesting subversion based on what one would expect. I will say that, personally, I do think the guy deserves to rest in peace after all the crap he's been through, both living and "dead", heh.

 

[Squire]

Two words: Absolute Power.

Look at how she carries herself on the battlefield. With a flick of her finger, she casually assaults the opponent with her Tarot cards. She wields multiple Personas. She teleports. (did you get a look at her IK setup? Jesus christ) and she gets physical; Dive kicks? Tiger Knees? SUPPLEX?!



Margaret stepping up the plate after Aigis's blatant lie.

Margaret: Let there be SUPPLEX.

EDIT: And Hassou Tobi is a super. Thank you, Izanagi.

This post perfectly encapsulates my Marge hype.

 

[Meia]

I'm alright with both outcomes, as long as it's addressed properly and satisfyingly. You're right,

Spoiler

an outright failure in Elizabeth attaining her goals would be a very interesting subversion based on what one would expect. I will say that, personally, I do think the guy deserves to rest in peace after all the crap he's been through, both living and "dead", heh.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Spoiler

I know the Jesus comparisons are common with Makoto, but Jesus didn't exactly go to HELL for the people that believe in the religion.

 

[sackboy2197]

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Spoiler

I know the Jesus comparisons are common with Makoto, but Jesus didn't exactly go to HELL for the people that believe in the religion.

Spoiler

He actually did. And then obviously came back. It's also said that he took with him some Saints and other important people (like Greek philosophers and such), which were in hell because they weren't baptized. There's reference to this in Dante's Inferno too.

 

[NichM]

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Spoiler

I know the Jesus comparisons are common with Makoto, but Jesus didn't exactly go to HELL for the people that believe in the religion.

This is going pretty far afield for a Persona community thread, but It's commonly believed that he did, in fact.

 

[Levito]

So did any of you actually enter the sing along contest?

 

[kewlmyc]

Ya'll motherfuckas need Sunday Bible School.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Ya'll motherfuckas need Sunday Bible School.

You don't?

 

[Meia]

This is going pretty far afield for a Persona community thread, but It's commonly believed that he did, in fact.

But then that creates another problem then.

Spoiler

Popular opinion with the Makoto/Jesus thing was him dieing creating the Seal, then coming back for a brief period(resurrection) before dieing again on graduation day. But if Jesus did the Hell thing and then got out when he resurrected, then the idea that Makoto "died" at the Seal thing is a false premise to begin with. This kind of just adds more fuel to the "he's prime for resurrection" thing, doesn't it?



And it's kind of far afield, but considering the story implications with what Persona 3, Persona 4, and Persona Arena did(and what may or may not happen in Ultimax), it's interesting enough to think about.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Well, whatever happens, we'll find out in a week.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Well, whatever happens, we'll find out in a week.

Or more.

 

[Mdesilva]

Or more.

Why would it be more?!

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Or more.

Nah, we—as a collective—will find out in a week. Then it comes down to individual preference concerning whether or not we want to know that information.

 

[PK Gaming]

But then that creates another problem then.

Spoiler

Popular opinion with the Makoto/Jesus thing was him dieing creating the Seal, then coming back for a brief period(resurrection) before dieing again on graduation day. But if Jesus did the Hell thing and then got out when he resurrected, then the idea that Makoto "died" at the Seal thing is a false premise to begin with. This kind of just adds more fuel to the "he's prime for resurrection" thing, doesn't it?



And it's kind of far afield, but considering the story implications with what Persona 3, Persona 4, and Persona Arena did(and what may or may not happen in Ultimax), it's interesting enough to think about.

Spoiler

I think you're reading too much into the Makoto = Jesus comparisons. Yes, there are some blatant similarities between the two, that doesn't mean his entire character concept is not predicated on being the Messiah. Persona 3 was mostly about accepting the inevitability of death. The developers repeatedly hammered that point in their interview, and at no point have they explicitly tied Makoto to being Jesus.

Furthermore, the game is completely unambiguous with how he died. At no point did he resurrect; after using the Great Seal, he clung to life for an extra month then died. The mechanics of this are unexplained and we don't know how Makoto's final month of living affected the Great Seal, but at no point did he "resurrect."

 

[Tamanon]

Technically it could be more if it's add-on DLC later on, but there's not really much precedent for that from Atlus.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Why would it be more?!

Nah, we—as a collective—will find out in a week. Then it comes down to individual preference concerning whether or not we want to know that information.

Eh. I was just saying certain people take awhile to beat a story mode.

 

[Ljrivarola]

So did any of you actually enter the sing along contest?

I hope so, I'd love to see someone from PersonaGAF singing AND winning the contest I've been watching some of the entries, and there's a lot of creative people and good singers.

 

[Setsu00]

Eh. I was just saying certain people take awhile to beat a story mode.

Never underestimate the power of data mining.

 

[Meia]

Spoiler

I think you're reading too much into the Makoto = Jesus comparisons. Yes, there are some blatant similarities between the two, that doesn't mean his entire character concept is not predicated on being the Messiah. Persona 3 was mostly about accepting the inevitability of death. The developers repeatedly hammered that point in their interview, and at no point have they explicitly tied Makoto to being Jesus.

Furthermore, the game is completely unambiguous with how he died. At no point did he resurrect; after using the Great Seal, he clung to life for an extra month then died. The mechanics of this are unexplained and we don't know how Makoto's final month of living affected the Great Seal, but at no point did he "resurrect."

The

Spoiler

he never resurrected thing was something I had originally taken away from P3 as well, but some had said that him using all his HP to create the Seal and then reappearing at the bottom of Tartarus was him coming back. And I think considering Makoto's ultimate Persona is Messiah, and the flavor text for it literally has "many stories involve his death and rebirth", well...


Yeah, the themes in Persona 3 are what they are, but still. Endings where a protagonist gets a really raw deal always kind of bug me. Guess we'll know the outcome soon. Still think if they weren't going to go this route, they could have simply had Margaret mention nothing at all in Persona 4.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Never underestimate the power of data mining.

I think I did, Setsu.

 

[Setsu00]

I think I did, Setsu.

Data mining is awful. It can take away all the mystery and suspense, unfortunately.

 

[Marche90]

Kanji, what the hell happened to you face!?

(P4GA 7)

 

[Squire]

Ya'll motherfuckas need Sunday Bible School.

Oh my god (heh) I hated Sunday School.

 

[Weiss]

The

Spoiler

he never resurrected thing was something I had originally taken away from P3 as well, but some had said that him using all his HP to create the Seal and then reappearing at the bottom of Tartarus was him coming back. And I think considering Makoto's ultimate Persona is Messiah, and the flavor text for it literally has "many stories involve his death and rebirth", well...


Yeah, the themes in Persona 3 are what they are, but still. Endings where a protagonist gets a really raw deal always kind of bug me. Guess we'll know the outcome soon. Still think if they weren't going to go this route, they could have simply had Margaret mention nothing at all in Persona 4.

Well, theoretically

Spoiler

it's possible for Makoto to return, since the Great Seal isn't necessary if Erebus were to disappear. Given that to do so, every human being on Earth would have to reject their nihilism, it's doubtful, but still within the realm of possibility for beings like Elizabeth and Aigis.

 

[animaSerah]

[P3 SPOILERS]

Spoiler

Wouldn't it funny if Elizabeth just decided to forcefully replace Makoto with Sho as the Great Seal, and everyone else had to stop her mad plans?

 

[names2hard4you]

Yup.

Psn = PersonaXShenmue

Feel free to add me.

I too sent you a friend request, I'm blewjayy. The more the merrier

 

[Levito]

Still really dislike the idea of

Spoiler

reviving, releasing, or bringing back Makoto in any fashion. No matter the reasoning or story justification, it severly underminds was Persona 3's story and the message of that game. It takes out all the power in that game if he comes back.


It would be even stupider than Titus coming back in FFX-2 just because Yuna really wanted it to happen or whatever..

Sometimes if you love a story, it's better off just leaving it alone.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Still really dislike the idea of

Spoiler

reviving, releasing, or bringing back Makoto in any fashion. No matter the reasoning or story justification, it severly underminds was Persona 3's story and message was about. It takes out all the power in that game if he comes back.

How does

Spoiler

releasing him undermine anything? Was the point of Persona 3 "you must suffer, even when you die"? What's the problem if he's liberated from his prison but stays dead?

 

[Dantis]

How does

Spoiler

releasing him undermine anything? Was the point of Persona 3 "you must suffer, even when you die"? What's the problem if he's liberated from his prison but stays dead?

That would be fine with me, personally, I think.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Well, theoretically

Spoiler

it's possible for Makoto to return, since the Great Seal isn't necessary if Erebus were to disappear. Given that to do so, every human being on Earth would have to reject their nihilism, it's doubtful, but still within the realm of possibility for beings like Elizabeth and Aigis.

Spoiler

Honestly, best case scenario I see isn't the problem going away, it's the seal getting replaced.

 

[Tamanon]

New episode is up on Hulu!

 

[Levito]

How does

Spoiler

releasing him undermine anything? Was the point of Persona 3 "you must suffer, even when you die"? What's the problem if he's liberated from his prison but stays dead?

Spoiler

At the end of the day, I feel that even if he were to stay dead, that it would undermine the sacrifice made during P3's finale. Makoto took upon that responsibility. P3's ultimate message was about death and coming to terms with it, regardless of the details. Not sure there needs to be a "Genie, you're free" moment in Ultimax or any future games. If he's dead, he's dead.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[CorvoSol]

But then that creates another problem then.

Spoiler

Popular opinion with the Makoto/Jesus thing was him dieing creating the Seal, then coming back for a brief period(resurrection) before dieing again on graduation day. But if Jesus did the Hell thing and then got out when he resurrected, then the idea that Makoto "died" at the Seal thing is a false premise to begin with. This kind of just adds more fuel to the "he's prime for resurrection" thing, doesn't it?



And it's kind of far afield, but considering the story implications with what Persona 3, Persona 4, and Persona Arena did(and what may or may not happen in Ultimax), it's interesting enough to think about.

The common idea is that, and I cannot believe I am putting this in spoilers,

Spoiler

Jesus was crucified, then his spirit went to Hell during the three days his body was in the tomb, then he was resurrected, and another 40 days later he ascended. So you have several steps: The Passion, in which Christ dies for mankind's sins, the liberation in which he frees the righteous dead from Hell, the Resurrection in which he appears again to his still living followers and the Ascension in which he leaves his followers and goes up to Heaven. However, even after the Ascension Jesus still interacted with them once or twice.

Assuming as direct a parallel here as we have, P3's The Journey is the three years Jesus spends teaching, with Social Links representing that in one way or another. When Makoto defeats Nyx, he dies because of mankind's desire to die (or sin, or however you wish to describe this), I haven't played The Answer yet, so I would assume that the time spent with the class afterward is representative of his resurrection. Especially since they don't remember him, which parallels how the Apostles didn't recognize Jesus on several occasions after his resurrection. The scene at the end of the game is his Ascension, since his work among mortals is now completely finished. The ministry to the dead would be whatever gap occurs between the final battle and the resumption of the game's final days or however.

But this assumes a literal sequence, and I don't think that's necessary. I know if I were going to make a hero into Jesus I wouldn't want things to be exactly 1:1, because it'd just be too bland. So it's entirely possible that events happen out of order (aside from Death, Rebirth, and Ascent, because logic dictates they have to happen that way). So his ministry to the dead could be after his ascent, or what have you because the game's writers were not bound by all the same rules.

 

[Green Mamba]

Spoiler

The actual details of the MC's death aren't important. They are there in The Answer to help the characters and the player come to terms with his death--to tell you "why." The message and entire point of P3 is death's inevitability, no matter how it comes. The nittygritties of his death aren't (and shouldn't) be the focal point. The only thing "freeing" the MC but keeping him dead would accomplish would be helping the fans who still can't come to terms with it feel better, which isn't a worthwhile enough cause to undermine even a little bit of P3's ending as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Marche90]

New episode is up on Hulu!

And boy did it bore me (it was uploaded to CR a while ago)
Not only that, but the quality dropped even more, if that's possible.

EDIT: But the next episode looks to be lol-worthy.

 

[kewlmyc]

Oh my god (heh) I hated Sunday School.

I think everyone did in their childhood

Spoiler

At the end of the day, I feel that even if he were to stay dead, that it would undermine the sacrifice made during P3's finale. Makoto took upon that responsibility. P3's ultimate message was about death and coming to terms with it, regardless of the details. Not sure there needs to be a "Genie, you're free" moment in Ultimax or any future games. If he's dead, he's dead.

Again, just my opinion.

I agree. Just don't touch it at all. That or go full-fanfiction tier and have him come back as a cyborg terminator.