• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Persona Community Thread |OT6| Where 6 Comes Before 5 (No PQ or P4U spoilers!)

If the multi-protagonists theory plays out (e.g how only the right shackle was removed)...and Persona 5 is told from each of their perspective, that would be interesting to see as well...of course, it's just one of the theory being thrown around.
Extremely unlikely but if so, it would a massive change to the formula that Hashino said he wanted to do while not isolating fans of the modern persona games(which he also said he would do). Would also mean we would get a female protagonist.
 

Sophia

Member
Oh I'm absolutely aware, I should have specified that I'm not necessarily just talking about the designs of the dungeons but the entire dungeon crawling experience. There are dedicated level designers, so if Atlus had one of those for Nocturne and somehow didn't have one for persona and a bad one for DDS, that's fine. But if I find the entire dungeon crawling experience subpar, it is absolutely Hashino's fault. I actually just started studying design recently (as in a few weeks ago) and the moment I started learning about good and bad examples of endogenous value in game design, Persona's dungeon crawling came to mind.

paris_tuileries_gardeycju1.jpg

I give up. Why would you ever assume they somehow didn't have a field/level designer for Persona 3/4?

To say the least, Persona 3 and Persona 4 were not developed in a vacuum where Hashino is responsible for every single choice or decision of the game's design. Nevermind the fact that I quite liked the approach myself, as well as appreciate the attempt to do something different from the average RPG.
 
I give up. Why would you ever assume they somehow didn't have a field/level designer for Persona 3/4?

To say the least, Persona 3 and Persona 4 were not developed in a vacuum where Hashino is responsible for every single choice or decision of the game's design. Nevermind the fact that I quite liked the approach myself, as well as appreciate the attempt to do something different from the average RPG.
Did I say this? He doesn't do everything but he is the game director, it's his job to make sure everything comes together. If the game's are poorly executed, how is it not his fault? If the game's are poorly paced, how is it not his fault? I want to be a designer so if you could school me on how it's not his fault, that would be wonderful.
 

Squire

Banned
Did I say this? He doesn't do everything but he is the game director, it's his job to make sure everything comes together. If the game's are poorly executed, how is it not his fault? If the game's are poorly paced, how is it not his fault? I want to be a designer so if you could school me on how it's not his fault, that would be wonderful.

It's not his fault because games are made by teams, not individuals.

Games are bad quite often. No one (worth listening to) goes around blaming the director, the producer, the lead designer or any specific individual on the team because that's not how it works.

If you want to be a designer, reconcile this fact now. There's no "I" in team and that works in reverse, too.
 

Sophia

Member
Did I say this? He doesn't do everything but he is the game director, it's his job to make sure everything comes together. If the game's are poorly executed, how is it not his fault? If the game's are poorly paced, how is it not his fault? I want to be a designer so if you could school me on how it's not his fault, that would be wonderful.

Specific elements that have been outright worked on in sequels (See: The improvements to pacing and dungeons in Persona 4) do not equal the entire game being poorly paced or poorly executed, despite your specific and not widely held opinion on the subject. :p

What Inorigo says is true. Also remember that you are the one who brought Hashino's competence level into question a few posts back.
 

BizzyBum

Member
I think I screwed myself in regard to fighting the final boss in Journey for P3 FES.

My MC is 70 with my other party members being around 65. I didn't really grind during January figuring I was good enough already to defeat it. I got pretty far in (I think I was 1 arcana away from Death) but I ended up getting debuffed on defense with him being charged up and died to his next wave of attacks.

I read that you really should be around level 80+ for the fight. I could just grind in Tartarus before the fight but then I realized I would end up getting tired and since it's the 31st I can't leave to sleep and heal up.

Am I screwed?
 
It's not his fault because games are made by teams, not individuals.

Games are bad quite often. No one (worth listening to) goes around blaming the director, the producer, the lead designer or any specific individual on the team because that's not how it works.

If you want to be a designer, reconcile this fact now. There's no "I" in team and that works in reverse, too.
Understood
Specific elements that have been outright worked on in sequels (See: The improvements to pacing and dungeons in Persona 4) do not equal the entire game being poorly paced or poorly executed, despite your specific and not widely held opinion on the subject. :p

What Inorigo says is true. Also remember that you are the one who brought Hashino's competence level into question a few posts back.
Actually in a lot of ways I think the design in P4 is worse, my problem with the game's is the dungeon crawling entirely, not just one specific thing about it but the entire portion of those games is poorly executed to me and I had trouble understanding how that wasn't his fault.
 

Lunar15

Member
I agree that dungeon crawling in P3 and P4 is really just not a strong point. But since I feel that modern persona games are about otherwise mediocre parts combining to make an incredibly well paced and compelling whole, it doesn't bother me too much. If you make the dungeons too complex, it might hurt that ecosystem, but who knows.

I'm all for changing stuff up. I'd like to see what they do for the next one, but I'm not expecting the world.
 

Style

Banned
I think I screwed myself in regard to fighting the final boss in Journey for P3 FES.

My MC is 70 with my other party members being around 65. I didn't really grind during January figuring I was good enough already to defeat it. I got pretty far in (I think I was 1 arcana away from Death) but I ended up getting debuffed on defense with him being charged up and died to his next wave of attacks.

I read that you really should be around level 80+ for the fight. I could just grind in Tartarus before the fight but then I realized I would end up getting tired and since it's the 31st I can't leave to sleep and heal up.

Am I screwed?

I don't think its possible to be tired on full moons and other event days. I think that your status should reset to normal for those days.
 

Sophia

Member
Actually in a lot of ways I think the design in P4 is worse, my problem with the game's is the dungeon crawling entirely, not just one specific thing about it but the entire portion of those games is poorly executed to me and I had trouble understanding how that wasn't his fault.

That's the thing. Saying "The entire portion is poorly executed" says nothing to an actual developer. Literally nothing. It's the equivalent of going to a doctor, saying "I'm in pain!" and then giving them no further information to figure out what is wrong. If you've ever beta tested a game, you'll notice that developers don't like commentary such as that for precisely that reason. It doesn't tell them what is wrong, it doesn't tell them where they need to improve at.

In your case, specifically, you seem to be using the term as catch all term to blame the game and the director. Now I feel like the doctor trying to see if there's any actual logic behind what you believe or if you're just being illogical. :p

Usually what happens is that one specific member will come up with an aspect of the game design after a general idea has been laid out, after which they'll discuss it with the members of the team. In Atlus's case this is most likely involving the leaders for that specific project. Sure, it's Hashino's job to make sure everything goes smoothly and that the ideas all come together. But he is far from the only person working on a game. And as evident by the fact that Cozy Okada hasn't seemingly made a good game since leaving Atlus, it's obviously not the only factor or even the biggest factor for critical success.

If you want to formulate an opinion on something, think it out, and carefully deconstruct your own arguments. Otherwise you'll just end up with blanket statements like "I doubt Hashino can make another game like that again", which don't really say anything and are aggravating to all in their lack of information. :\

I have my own issues with Persona 3 and Persona 4 in this regard. Specifically in regards to poor endgame balance, and the randomization not up to par to handle an 60-70 hour adventure. I quite like the concept and would love to see them improve upon it for Persona 5 tho.

I don't think its possible to be tired on full moons and other event days. I think that your status should reset to normal for those days.

You are partially correct. It is not possible to get tired on the final day of vanilla Persona 3 or FES. You may grind out to your heart's content with no penalty and free HP recovery on the bottom floor.

In vanilla Persona 3 nobody will get tired on the night before a full moon. In Persona 3 FES, people will get tired, but nobody will leave of their own accord and the status will not carry over into the next day as everyone fully recovers for the full moon events. This allows you to grind endlessly with a minor penalty.
 

MSMrRound

Member
Okay, nice. That's a relief lol

If you are playing FES, you can go for some of the fusion spells to protect you from some of the nastier hits the boss might do to you.

Also, be careful of status effects...you sure don't want your healer be charmed and fully heal the boss.
 
I agree that dungeon crawling in P3 and P4 is really just not a strong point. But since I feel that modern persona games are about otherwise mediocre parts combining to make an incredibly well paced and compelling whole, it doesn't bother me too much. If you make the dungeons too complex, it might hurt that ecosystem, but who knows.

I'm all for changing stuff up. I'd like to see what they do for the next one, but I'm not expecting the world.
It's not even(just) about the complexity of the dungeons(to me anyway). I hate the fact that taking advantage of the game's mechanics aren't necessary. You don't have to fuse demons(I only fused twice in P3 and once in P4), despite the whole social link system(the most important element of the game) tying into unlocking new demons to fuse. You don't have to use buffs/debuffs despite that playing a big part in press turn and all of its variants(I only used mind charge in p3/p4 and that just sped up the battles, I'm not sure if that was even necessary). The whole exploit weaknesses thing(a big part of press turn and it's variants) isn't satisfying at all because it isn't necessary to unlock and use the cool looking monsters and their abilities. The enemies also have little variety(and not only in aesthetics but move sets and weaknesses as well). That entire portion of the game is just bad to me. I do agree that they come together really well though.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Also, be careful of status effects...you sure don't want your healer be charmed and fully heal the boss.

Yeah, I've read the fight is relatively easy until the very end when it uses Night Queen. As of now I'm the one doing the healing. I have Raphael who has Mediarahan and Null Charm. Then I just set everyone else to Full Assault (party members I used were Akihiko, Mitsuru, and Yukari).
 

Sophia

Member
Yeah, I've read the fight is relatively easy until the very end when it uses Night Queen. As of now I'm the one doing the healing. I have Raphael who has Mediarahan and Null Charm. Then I just set everyone else to Full Assault (party members I used were Akihiko, Mitsuru, and Yukari).

I've got some bad news for you:
Yukari will fully heal the boss if she doesn't have charm protection and gets charmed.
 
Yeah, I've read the fight is relatively easy until the very end when it uses Night Queen. As of now I'm the one doing the healing. I have Raphael who has Mediarahan and Null Charm. Then I just set everyone else to Full Assault (party members I used were Akihiko, Mitsuru, and Yukari).

I went totally unprepared for that fight, without any Null Charm items, when Night Queen happens, Mitsuru gets charmed and then Diarahan. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

I wanted to throw my controller into the TV. I continued the fight though and actually managed to beat it.

Moral of the story: give your healers some kind of null charm item if you have those.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Yikes, well that's not good because I don't think I have any null charm items. Is there a way to grind for those while in Tartarus?

I really should have prepared better for this fight. >_<
 

MSMrRound

Member
I really should have prepared better for this fight. >_<

There are certain Personas that will give you a null status item (heart item) once you acquire their last skill (if my memory isn't wrong).

Check your compendium to see if you have any of them registered? One way to farm them is to register when they are a few exp points from hitting the level to obtain their last skill (and the item)...so that you can obtain, dismiss and summon again for another item.
 
I suspect there won't be enough characters for a FFX battle switching to work. I think we're getting 5 characters, which will be interesting to change things up.

so the game will just consist of 5 characters, including the mc, for battling experience?

if this is the case then very disappointing, even p3 have more characters for battling than that!
 

Squire

Banned
so the game will just consist of 5 characters, including the mc, for battling experience?

if this is the case then very disappointing, even p3 have more characters for battling than that!

He's just speculating, but personally i can't imagine it being anything but good, if they did it. Less combatants opens up the potential for more variation in their skill sets and of course the less characters in the main party, the more character development each can have (I'm assuming the game is as long as P3/4).

The basic principle of quality over quantity. If P5 has 7/8 party members then cool, but that won't be what makes the game great by any stretch.
 
He's just speculating, but personally i can't imagine it being anything but good, if they did it. Less combatants opens up the potential for more variation in their skill sets and of course the less characters in the main party, the more character development each can have (I'm assuming the game is as long as P3/4).

The basic principle of quality over quantity. If P5 has 7/8 party members then cool, but that won't be what makes the game great by any stretch.

Going on about party members, I would assume there would be MC, one for each element (Zio, Agi, Bufu, Garu), a light and/or dark user and a physical user, and at an outside chance a dedicated healer. As well as the usual support character too.

Going by that logic, I'm thinking anywhere between 6 and 9 characters within the main group.
 

Sophia

Member
I hope Persona 5 brings back Earth, Water and Force, alongside the three physical skill categories!

Fire, Ice, Wind, Electric, Earth, Water
Force, Almighty, Holy, Dark
Slash, Strike, Pierce.

ALL THE ELEMENTS~! Redundancy be damned!

/sarcasm
 

Xenoflare

Member
so the game will just consist of 5 characters, including the mc, for battling experience?

if this is the case then very disappointing, even p3 have more characters for battling than that!

I would rather not having half the playable cast benching throughout the game, unless Atlus decides to do an exp share for benched characters.
 

Soriku

Junior Member
You are killing me.

This is exactly what I don't want to see, haha!

Some sort of puzzles to switch things up in dungeons would be great. Crafting system though? Meh. It can make things too grindy.

I hope Persona 5 brings back Earth, Water and Force, alongside the three physical skill categories!

Fire, Ice, Wind, Electric, Earth, Water
Force, Almighty, Holy, Dark
Slash, Strike, Pierce.

ALL THE ELEMENTS~! Redundancy be damned!

I think I like it more when physical is its own element.

Also isn't Force basically the same thing as Wind?
 

Squire

Banned
Going on about party members, I would assume there would be MC, one for each element (Zio, Agi, Bufu, Garu), a light and/or dark user and a physical user, and at an outside chance a dedicated healer. As well as the usual support character too.

Going by that logic, I'm thinking anywhere between 6 and 9 characters within the main group.

9 would be a LOT. Unless lots of party members is the hook of the game as with Suikoden or something, I don't think the lineup should breach more than two full rotations, which would be 8 characters in Personas case.

Especially because unless your leveling system works like a BioWare game where even benched characters collect experience and level, you're already going to end up grinding to keep everyone on par or decoding on a set team once all the options have been presented.

I hope Persona 5 brings back Earth, Water and Force, alongside the three physical skill categories!

Fire, Ice, Wind, Electric, Earth, Water
Force, Almighty, Holy, Dark
Slash, Strike, Pierce.

ALL THE ELEMENTS~! Redundancy be damned!

Atlus, pls. Don't bloat up the elements. &#128532;
 

Tamanon

Banned
I hope each character has specific traits and abilities they can learn, and then can also all change personas so they're not pigeon-holed into a few types.
 

Sophia

Member
Just give me fucking Nuclear element.

So being realistic instead of joking around for a second...

I would like to see the single target Nuclear spells return as single target Almighty spells. That is: Frei, Freila, Freidyne.

I also want to see the return of specific skills for every element, because those provided a great deal of customization and not having them in Persona 3 and Persona 4 was awful.

I think I like it more when physical is its own element.

Also isn't Force basically the same thing as Wind?

Atlus, pls. Don't bloat up the elements. &#55357;&#56852;

In regards to Force and Wind.... Pretty much, yeah.

also, I should mark my sarcastic posts better. :p
 

CorvoSol

Member
So does anybody know if Amazon's DLC preorder bonus for P4AU remain free after the week advertised? Like, I don't care about getting 2 of the DLC characters a week early, I just want to know if they remain free after that week. Because if so, it's more of an incentive to drop 60 bucks on the game than just the tarot cards, even if the tarot cards look super cool.
 

Sophia

Member
So does anybody know if Amazon's DLC preorder bonus for P4AU remain free after the week advertised? Like, I don't care about getting 2 of the DLC characters a week early, I just want to know if they remain free after that week. Because if so, it's more of an incentive to drop 60 bucks on the game than just the tarot cards, even if the tarot cards look super cool.

If you're referring to the two DLC characters, everyone getting a US copy of the game has a week window to get those two free. You don't have to pre-order or anything and the two characters aren't exclusive to Amazon.

I don't really think that's a good thing, either.

I am squeeing with joy at the prospect of leveling up 16+ characters in Persona Q, and that's not sarcasm. >_>;
 

CorvoSol

Member
If you're referring to the two DLC characters, everyone getting a US copy of the game has a week window to get those two free. You don't have to pre-order or anything and the two characters aren't exclusive to Amazon.

But basically after that week they're not free? Guh, how am I gonna do this? I guess I can preorder it, send it to my home, and tell someone there to use the DLC codes for me so I can get the free content? Then again, do we know how much they plan on charging for the DLC? Idk.
 

kewlmyc

Member
I do hope we get at least the 3 different physicals back. Made for more interesting fights and party planning. As for elements, I'm fine with what we have right now, though I wouldn't mind Earth making a return considering even SMTIV skipped it.
 

Sophia

Member
But basically after that week they're not free? Guh, how am I gonna do this? I guess I can preorder it, send it to my home, and tell someone there to use the DLC codes for me so I can get the free content? Then again, do we know how much they plan on charging for the DLC? Idk.

There are no DLC codes, Corvo. Everyone has a week window to grab them free off PSN. Lots of people are planning to grab them even if they don't have the game, to my understanding.

If you get them in the first week, they're yours to keep.

And presumably the characters will be $8-10, seeing as they're apparently 800 yen on the Japanese store.
 

PK Gaming

Member
I don't really think that's a good thing, either.

Agreed

P3 ended up spreading itself pretty thin. You got a handful of characters who got some nice development and some others that got... what, exactly? Oh that reminds me, I just remembered something about Fuuka:

She sucks at cooking XD XD XD
 
Atlus, pls. Don't bloat up the elements. &#128532;
Eh, would be nice to have Water and Earth back as elements again. Dunno about nuclear though.
If there is one thing I think that should come back is the fusion spell system, but more akin to how Digital Devil Saga did it.
She sucks at cooking XD XD XD
I hope that trope doesn't come back is left to rot. It was funny like once and after that it was kinda more of "You know this is not funny anymore, and getting more not funny every time it shows up again."
 

CorvoSol

Member
There are no DLC codes, Corvo. Everyone has a week window to grab them free off PSN. Lots of people are planning to grab them even if they don't have the game, to my understanding.

If you get them in the first week, they're yours to keep.

I wonder if i can claim them without a PS3 then? Just log in to my PSN from the computer and lay claim. Thatd be nice.
 

Squire

Banned
I know Sophia was being sarcastic, but yeah, bloating up the elements is bad. They reduced that part of the game for a good reason.

Like, three types of physical damage when you could just have physical damage is categorically bad. Because why would it be good? "It makes it deeper" isn't an answer, either.

I wonder if i can claim them without a PS3 then? Just log in to my PSN from the computer and lay claim. Thatd be nice.

Haha, Corvo, buddy, are you off today?

You can do that, man. Go on the PC store that week and get them. Done.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Nocturne tier dungeons would be amaaaaziing, 0% chance of that happening though. I doubt Hashino can make another game like that again(did Okada help him the first time?) and the Amala labyrinth was done by the maniax team. Speaking of team maniax, I hope they show deviliser soon.

As I understand it, Okada spearheaded Nocturne and then Hashino did Maniax. So I'm very confident Hashino can do wonderful dungeon design if the game calls for it. I guess that's just not the direction he felt was best for Persona, and it's not too bad a call.
 

Sophia

Member
I wonder if i can claim them without a PS3 then? Just log in to my PSN from the computer and lay claim. Thatd be nice.

Yup, you can do that.

I know Sophia was being sarcastic, but yeah, bloating up the elements is bad. They reduced that part of the game for a good reason.

Like, three types of physical damage when you could just have physical damage is categorically bad. Because why would it be good? "It makes it deeper" isn't an answer, either.

I actually dislike the change to physical, because it mucked up the balance pretty badly. Two/three types of physical is the sweet spot.

Now if you want to see a genuinely bad example of bloated physical skills, let us look at Persona 1 which has...

Strike - Axe/Fist/Whip as subcategories
Slash - Sword/Two-Handers as subcategories
Pierce - Spear/Arrow/Throwing as subcategories
Gun - Handgun/MachineGun/Shotgun/Rifile as subcategories
Havoc - Rush/Technique/Special as subcategories

To make matters worse: Enemies could be weak to one specific subcategory or all of them. And yes, I actually had to look these up there are so many to remember. >_>;
 

kewlmyc

Member
I know Sophia was being sarcastic, but yeah, bloating up the elements is bad. They reduced that part of the game for a good reason.

Like, three types of physical damage when you could just have physical damage is categorically bad. Because why would it be good? "It makes it deeper" isn't an answer, either.

More options. Seems weird that having more options in a RPG is a bad thing. I do feel that this only works if they let the MC be able to switch between each physical type which P5 will most likely not do. P3 and Xillia 2 did this very well as well as other RPGs where swords, maces, and bows all have different attack types since they're different types of attacks.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I know Sophia was being sarcastic, but yeah, bloating up the elements is bad. They reduced that part of the game for a good reason.

Like, three types of physical damage when you could just have physical damage is categorically bad. Because why would it be good? "It makes it deeper" isn't an answer, either.



Haha, Corvo, buddy, are you off today?

You can do that, man. Go on the PC store that week and get them. Done.

Class starts tomorrow so i guess i am a bit distracted.
 

Squire

Banned
I actually dislike the change to physical, because it mucked up the balance pretty badly. Two/three types of physical is the sweet spot.

Now if you want to see a genuinely bad example of bloated physical skills, let us look at Persona 1 which has...

Strike - Axe/Fist/Whip as subcategories
Slash - Sword/Two-Handers as subcategories
Pierce - Spear/Arrow/Throwing as subcategories
Gun - Handgun/MachineGun/Shotgun/Rifile as subcategories
Havoc - Rush/Technique/Special as subcategories

To make matters worse: Enemies could be weak to one specific subcategory or all of them. And yes, I actually had to look these up there are so many to remember. >_>;

Nightmare fuel.

More options. Seems weird that having more options in a RPG is a bad thing. I do feel that this only works if they let the MC be able to switch between each physical type which P5 will most likely not do. P3 and Xillia 2 did this very well as well as other RPGs were swords, maces, and bows all have different attack types since they're different types of attacks.

Because you don't just add options to add them or because it's an RPG and they're nice to have. There needs to be some sort of reasoning and the game needs to be properly balanced for it. Like what Sophia is talking about.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Prediction: One More system should be gone. Instead weaknesses will fill up some sort of gauge. Not sure if individual or team(or both) that can be used for team-up and unleashed Persona attacks.
 
Top Bottom