You know, the funny thing is that P5 will likely be released on a Tuesday in the US.
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Persona Community Thread |OT8| Coming Winter 2014
- Thread starter Dantis
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You know, the funny thing is that P5 will likely be released on a Tuesday in the US.
A Dead Diehard
Member
So we'll have *a* good Tuesday, though I'm doubting this one.
At least in terms of P5 info.
Dragon1893
Member
PQ is really good and you have a 3DS so you shouldn't miss out on that.
Labrys grew on me, I think Arena's story mode is worth checking out for her. If you end up playing PQ there's also a connection to Arena that I think made the whole thing worth it.
Skip Ultimax. P4D had some cool remixes and gave us Dance but you can just get ost.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
PQ is the worst spinoff
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
Crazy idea, but you could just play the spin-offs and write off the shitty stories. The whole cannon/not-cannon obsession confuses me tbh - as far as I'm concerned the story of P4 ended with that game. I don't have to care where Arena or DaN fit within a broader timeline that's ultimately going nowhere unless they do a direct RPG sequel to P4.
DaN, Arena and PQ are all games that are worth playing, even if the stories are shit. I don't even have a problem with the story in Q, just the pacing.
DaN, Arena and PQ are all games that are worth playing, even if the stories are shit. I don't even have a problem with the story in Q, just the pacing.
Funyarinpa
Member
Nope. I am sure on the "never play another P4 game again". It ended on too high a note.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
will never regret the stories. I got Labrys and Kanamin out of them. Kanamin especially considering I fully expected her to be awful
Ludger Kresnik
Member
Labrys and Kanamin are nuggets of gold in an ocean of poop.
Do you wish to wade through that ocean for Robot Waifu #3 and Idol Waifu #2?
>Yes
>No
Do you wish to wade through that ocean for Robot Waifu #3 and Idol Waifu #2?
>Yes
>No
It makes sense that new characters would fare better than the main cast in spinoffs, as they can actually have character arcs whereas the main cast is stuck in trope land because their arcs are already complete.
They could have gone farther with the main cast characters, but they just kind of chose to leave them where they were.
They could have gone farther with the main cast characters, but they just kind of chose to leave them where they were.
P4 characters never had much in terms of character arcs in the first place. It's why the P3 segments of the spin-offs are more interesting than the P4 parts.
Ganzlinger
Member
wait, what is that?
You mean in their original games? I agree that the P3 had more fleshed out and longer character arcs, but I'm not necessarily sure those were reflected in the spinoffs. Sure, the P3 characters changed more between P3 and Arena than the P4 characters, but I'm not sure I can say any of them had a significant arc other than "look at what wacky career choice they made!" Ironically, it's actually Rise who probably gets the best character treatment in the Arena games out of the main cast.
I felt that P3 parts were better because they're more focused on the plot than the P4 parts, which are more focused on character quirks.
P4 characters definitely had character arcs, but the problem is that they're all relegated to the social links and are barely reflected in the main game. This puts them in trope mode outside of those optional moments. I know it may not seem as dynamic as accepting someone's death, but the idea of accepting who you currently are is still an arc, even if you essentially end up as the same person you were when you started.
Yes, it's what you say. The P4 "character arcs" were reserved exclusively to Social Links aside from the short "pre-Shadow confrontation" and "post-Shadow confrontation" segments. What they go through in their S. Links might still be considered character arcs, but they are so very superficial to me as their personality remains 100% static when the arc is resolved, so that they stay in line with how they're depicted in the main story regardless of the player's choices. It's an uninteresting arc to me, where there actually isn't any visible progression made and the characters accepting who they are basically puts them back and square one of their "post-Shadow confrontation" personality.
The way I see it, everything P3 in the spin-offs—even with Persona 4: Dancing All Night—is made more interesting because of how dramatically the characters in P3 change over a longer period of time. It makes the P3 side in PQ much more interesting, contrasting their personalities within that time frame compared to how they will be when they get out of it (which is very different). I haven't played the P4 side yet, but I know 100% that that element will be lacking because how each of the P4 characters is depicted in PQ are the exact same as how they are for practically the entirety of the game.
And I disagree with "wacky career choices" being the main draw for the P3 cast in the P4A series. I was always more compelled to see how the P3 cast interacted with others than seeing more of the P4 cast. Stuff like how Aigis now talks to Elizabeth or how Fuuka is was significantly more interesting to me, and it's very much in line because of their character arcs in P3 and how they're actually character arcs, and not just isolated, optional scenes that have no baring on the plot or their personalities.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I felt that the P3 additions in Ultimax were totally wasted. None of them had any real internal conflict or life goal in mind.
The stinger for Ken's JP trailer was more interesting than what they sold.
The stinger for Ken's JP trailer was more interesting than what they sold.
I haven't really seen the entirety of PQ, so I can't fully speak to that.
As for Arena, I think I better see where you're coming from. The character growth for P3 characters in Arena games is definitely better than the P4 characters, but I still just didn't see it as super significant or satisfying. I think it's just that I did actually really like the character arcs in P4's social links and it's not as if they didn't have have any.
Thaaaaat said, I definitely want to see this stuff be better implemented into the plot of P5. I feel like there has to be a happy medium between P3 and P4 where we can have social links for the main cast but still have their arcs reflected in the larger plot. Maybe this is what the new system will be? I'm not really holding my breath, though, especially considering P5 seems to be somewhat episodic with its arcs.
As for Arena, I think I better see where you're coming from. The character growth for P3 characters in Arena games is definitely better than the P4 characters, but I still just didn't see it as super significant or satisfying. I think it's just that I did actually really like the character arcs in P4's social links and it's not as if they didn't have have any.
Thaaaaat said, I definitely want to see this stuff be better implemented into the plot of P5. I feel like there has to be a happy medium between P3 and P4 where we can have social links for the main cast but still have their arcs reflected in the larger plot. Maybe this is what the new system will be? I'm not really holding my breath, though, especially considering P5 seems to be somewhat episodic with its arcs.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
Yes, it's called P3P.
Dragon1893
Member
They make it pretty obvious that
Rei is Labrys which I thought was pretty neat, but it will only mean anything to you if you played through her story in Arena first.
This is tangential to the current discussion, but I feel the need to bring it up anyway.
While it's true that the P4 characters generally have their arcs concluded after their shadow confrontations, it's not like they needed to change significantly from that point on. They already made great strides in changing themselves after that point, and you have their social links acting as a sort of nice follow up to that. Characters like Kanji, Naoto and Yukiko are practically unrecognizable from how they start out in the story, and it ties into P4's more natural approach to characterization. The P4 characters feel like actual teenagers, as in people who have the capacity to change (and they do), but not completely. Chie doesn't need her dad straight up die in order for her resolve as a person. It's just not necessary.
And real talk? The character development on the P3 characters aren't even that great since they're predicated on a major events happening in order to change them.
Only Aigis, Junpei, Yukari, and Ken (though people like to pretend he's garbage) had amazing character arcs of note. The rest of the cast had average/below average character arcs.
And then there's Fuuka.
While it's true that the P4 characters generally have their arcs concluded after their shadow confrontations, it's not like they needed to change significantly from that point on. They already made great strides in changing themselves after that point, and you have their social links acting as a sort of nice follow up to that. Characters like Kanji, Naoto and Yukiko are practically unrecognizable from how they start out in the story, and it ties into P4's more natural approach to characterization. The P4 characters feel like actual teenagers, as in people who have the capacity to change (and they do), but not completely. Chie doesn't need her dad straight up die in order for her resolve as a person. It's just not necessary.
And real talk? The character development on the P3 characters aren't even that great since they're predicated on a major events happening in order to change them.
Only Aigis, Junpei, Yukari, and Ken (though people like to pretend he's garbage) had amazing character arcs of note. The rest of the cast had average/below average character arcs.
And then there's Fuuka.
Technically the Arena games are more like P3 sequels than P4 ones but the story is so god-damned awful in them. The gameplay is alright but god is the story terrible.
Nah, that title goes to the Arena games for blatantly stealing
Nyarly
A Dead Diehard
Member
ShadowSoldier89
Member
arena games have fun gameplay and an actual arc. pq is a snoozefest that ignores telling its story until 4/5th of the way through
My issue with P4 (among a few issues but this is really one of the main ones) is the characters don't even feel like they have an arc at all. They're mostly stereotypes. There is change but it's barely there and yes, once their own Shadow segment is over, their development more or less stops. Especially in the case of Doucheke who quite literally has no character development at all. He feels like a poor man's Junpei in many many regards. It feels artificial and not realistic to me. Even prior to the whole shadow thing, they don't even show much development or general escalation towards a personal conflict. Their own mini-arcs seem to only be contained in the shadow moments themselves. They have barely any set-up, barely any conflict and a sudden denouement in regards to their own inner development.
There is some additional development in their s. links and if it weren't for that I would argue that the P4 characters are largely flat. Outside of the Shadow confrontations, where they get a sudden quickly resolved arc, there's not much going on.
For that reason and more, if we're only going to compare to P3, P3's handling of character development is far better. They tie the characters fates to the plot itself. They're reacting directly to what happens in the plot in organic and reactive ways and it changes them and how they think or feel often enough.
I also quite like Ken. He's honestly one of the best developed characters in the game. The seeds of development are sown over a long period of time and we really get a grasp of his overall character. Especially if you take time to talk to him at the dorm before and after spoilers and especially with P3P and his s. link as FeMC
(without romancing).
When it's plot, or at least how the antagonist behaves, is blatantly taken directly from the way a major antagonist behaved in a couple past games, I can't at all suggest the Arena games are good based on their stories. It's that stealing of and applying lore/concepts to a demon they make no sense to have that feels like nothing but a slap in the face of those who enjoyed the older games. It may not be what Atlus intended but it's blatantly clear that they either meant it to be said villain but at the last minute couldn't or were just trolling all of us with how god-damn awful the writing is. On top of that it relies on stereotypes even more than P4 did. Just, bleh. The Arena games will always be the worst spin-off to me for writing alone. The gameplay is fine but it's the only saving grace those games have.
PQ at least hints at what story it has going on and didn't steal material from a past game.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
then at least the arena games have a saving grace. Labrys's arc alone was still more interesting than the entirety of PQ
I agree that Labrys's arc is far and away the highlight of the Arena games.
I mentioned the Arena games relying on stereotypes but frankly PQ does as well. Arguably more so or at least on the same level. Especially in regards to Arena 1. I give PQ more of a pass because at least it's concepts aren't wholly stolen from another game in the series. At least to my knowledge. I don't know P1 very well outside of who the characters are (own it but have to play it still) so it's entirely possible it has something similar to that. That said, I think it's fair to assume it doesn't regarding what I had seen of PQ. Plus PQ has
Shinji and Theo....no FeMC tho : /
We'll get it whenever, I guess.
No clue. It's only 20 dollars though for a game that's like 50 hours so that's not too bad a price really. And Eternal Punishment, the sequel, is like 10 dollars I think? Really not too much to ask for, imo, especially considering they're the best games in the series.
Theodoricos
Member
Sorry that I'll miss out on the P4 hate train, but the stakes for the casts in P3 and P4 are much different and that's going to reflect how they're affected. In P3,
. In P4, the characters are playing detectives in a local murder mystery.
the entire freaking world is about to end
I can't say I agree with your perspective at all. The P4 characters all had something to work through... that's the entire conceit of Persona 4. The character arcs were literally built into the narrative. It varies, but there is a noticeable change with each of the characters. Yukiko is initially withdrawn and standoffish, but slowly starts to become more spirited and outgoing by the end of Persona 4. She is literally "a girl you know" at the beginning, and that couldn't be further from the truth by the end. As for the Shadow confrontations, I felt they had the appropriate amount of build up. I mean Yosuke's was abrupt, but it essentially served as a tutorial to ease into the concept. He DOES have character development (from inconsiderate city kid attempting to play hero for kicks, to someone who's seriously determined to solve the case), and the rest of the cast have appropriate foreshadowing. Like, it's clear that Chie has a complex towards Yukiko upon replaying the game, Kanji is obviously wrestling with something, etc.
P3's character development also varies. There's no denying that Aigis, Junpei, Yukari and Ken have superb character development, but Akihiko is fairly mild as character until "that moment." Mitsuru's character development is good, but nothing special.
Fuuka is Fuuka.
Yeah, I agree with that. The P4 characters don't change 180°, but I'm not even sure if that's even the point here. I mean their stories are largely about confronting themselves and making a genuine effort towards being honest with yourself. As a result of that, P4's characters are a lot more relatable, at least to me.
To be quite fair,
in Persona 3 you're trying to fix something going wrong, but there's no knowledge if it is in fact on a global scale. The global thing only comes into play the very last month of the game. In Persona 4 you're trying to stop a serial killer that's only effecting one town, but ultimately results in another end of world scenario when confronting Izanami.
Honestly, there's little point in comparing the two casts and games since they're both very different, even though they end up at the same point. But what PK says is pretty true. You get Persona 4 cast members in the same state that the cast members finally get to in the later quarter of the game for Persona 3.
Always kind of looked at as the Persona 3 cast's second persona is equivalent to the Persona 4's cast first one, if you're tying mental state into the idea of Persona. Every member of the Persona 4 cast faces a dire life or death situation just to join the cast, after all.
I'll agree that P3's character growths were much better implemented into the plot, but I personally prefer the P4 cast to the P3 cast. Although their situations are pretty different, the P4 cast resonated with me just a bit more than the P3 one.
Different strokes I guess. The P4 cast suffered the worst of the flanderization in spinoffs, though.
Different strokes I guess. The P4 cast suffered the worst of the flanderization in spinoffs, though.
Agree except for MC.
I think there's also the fact that the setting itself is more of a character in P4. The small town vibe brings a certain flair to the game that P3 doesn't really have. P3 definitely has the better plot, but Inaba sticks out way more in my head than Tatsumi Port Island.
If I were to rank the cast individually (not in terms of how much I like them, but based on their strength of character) i'd go:
Persona 4
Top tier: Yosuke (...come at me)
High tier: Rise, Kanji, Teddie
Mid tier: Chie, Yukiko
Low tier: Naoto
Persona 3
Top tier: Junpei, Aigis, Yukari
High tier: Ken
Mid tier: Mitsuru, Akihiko
Low tier: Koromaru, Shinji
Fuuka tier: Fuuka
In regards to its characters, P3 has higher highs, but lower lows. P4 is more consistent.
Persona 4
Top tier: Yosuke (...come at me)
High tier: Rise, Kanji, Teddie
Mid tier: Chie, Yukiko
Low tier: Naoto
Persona 3
Top tier: Junpei, Aigis, Yukari
High tier: Ken
Mid tier: Mitsuru, Akihiko
Low tier: Koromaru, Shinji
Fuuka tier: Fuuka
In regards to its characters, P3 has higher highs, but lower lows. P4 is more consistent.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I cant think of anything I like better about P3 compared to 4 other than P3P having the choice of FeMC.
My favorite thing about P3 was that
My favorite thing about P3 was that
The joker character for once actually got the girl, but then they took that away a few hours later
Yeah agree about the city. The p3 mc i was talking about was femc. Femc for life.
Ganzlinger
Member
holy shit that's amazing! I thought that could be her
but I don't remember they talking about Rei being used in the plume of dusk research so I ended up thinking it wasn't her. It's been years since I played Labrys' story so I forgot about those details
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I have a few rubber stamps I picked up in japan (Naoto and Chie for Persona). I dont really like the look of those though
Dragon1893
Member
They don't say it outright (which is a good thing since it's a lot better that way) but everything adds up.
I disagree with this. One of the fundamental points of P4's story is accepting oneself and working through one's personal issues and social issues to get to that point, but that is in no means reflected through character development across the entirety of the game. It happens in milestones, directly linked to how they were before they confront their Shadows and after that moment.
Yukiko is initially withdrawn and standoffish, but she doesn't slowly start to become more spirited and outgoing. Literally during the first hours into the game after you save her, she then shows who she truly is with the laughing fit and from then on she doesn't become any different. It's not a slow progression; it's a very abrupt and distinct transition. And, as some are saying on this page, that wasn't really the point with P4's cast. A side-effect from the cast intentionally being designed to be close friends from the get-go means that there was extremely little actual internal conflict between the characters, which meant that they had to remain pretty much static among themselves to convey their bond of friendship (which is another fundamental point of P4, far more than it was in P3).
Aside from the fact that I disagree that only select moments in P3's character arcs are notable (I found that pretty much every single member of SEES progresses in a very noticeable way with changes throughout the entire story, except for Koromaru and maybe Fuuka), there's the fact that there isn't such a black-and-white transition as "pre-Shadow personality" and "post-Shadow personality" as there is in P4. Even with Akihiko; there is gradual development in how the characters behave and interact with each other throughout the whole experience.
This isn't only a P3 vs P4 thing, either. P2:IS and P2:EP characters have character arcs in a similar vein. P4 is the only mainline title in the series where the main characters do not have that, next to Persona 1. Again, it was likely an intentional design, but it's also part of what makes them my least favorite group (far ahead of P1's, though) in the series.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I dont find any character in P3 particularly amazing in their own game. Junpei the exception.
I love Mitsuru, but mainly because I really liked her in arena. Her entire arc in P3 was boring.
I love Mitsuru, but mainly because I really liked her in arena. Her entire arc in P3 was boring.
Megumi Ogata did a stellar job voicing Ken. Her performance makes the character so much better.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I'll swap Yukiko with Rise and Aki with Shinji.
Think you're giving Ken a bit too much credit, but whatever. :/
Also what's wrong with Naoto, exactly? I'm honestly confused.