water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Its not a visual medium its an interactive medium.
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Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian Entertainment (Kickstarter) [Up: Teaser]
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Gaming is a versatile medium; that's a big part of where its strengths lie. It doesn't have to be beholden to any one thing. It's the reason you can have both text adventures and wordless games like Journey under the same umbrella.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
So prose and narrative are visual mediums cause I read in devices that can display images (books, computers, phones)
I had a fun back-and-forth with Avellone a few months ago over e-mail on the topic of textual descriptions and dialogue versus heavy animation and voice acting, and the strengths and potential weaknesses each bring to the table. I like to think I had vague influence on the direction of Project Eternity 
Films are a moving images medium. Games are not restricted to that. Through games you can interact with images, text and voice.
Why are you so obsessed about VA ?
all of golden era RPG and BG, Torment and many other showed that VA isn't needed to tell good story. But not only that they showed that you mustn't do all lines VA because your game will be shallow and overall it won't be as good as few voiced lines.
What you described works for games like MGS where we simply cannot imagine Snake without david hayter. But for RPG it simply don't because of the shear amout of lines that must be voiced and flavor that pure text adds.
EternalGamer
Banned
Now that is pedantic and you know it. But I think you are going to make me try to parse this out anyway, so here's my best shot.
The thing that differentiates mediums is their primary function. Television can be used as a medium for light if you want read a book by it. But this is clearly not it's primary way televion is used. Conversely, you could use the letters in a book to just make images (a book make of ascii art) but that also is not the primary usage of books.
The reason mediums have a primary way they are used is not arbitrary. It is becasue mediums themselves have biases. They are better at certain things and worse at other things.
For the record, so I don't get accused of plagiarism, that TV used as light example is one I borrowed from Neil Postman from his book "Amusing Ourselves to Death" (amazing book).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's not illegal to quote someone.
It's actually an interactive medium at its root, not a visual one. Though I suppose if one were inclined to incredibly literal interpretations of things, the term video game might be misleading.*
In games, depending on visual elements over written or aural elements is very much at the discretion of the creator(s), as many have already pointed out. Interactivity is the only defining element.
*Luckily, this is a computer game.
edit: also, this is my first post! hey all!
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Now that is pedantic and you know it. But I think you are going to make me try to parse this out anyway, so here's my best shot.
I should note that I didn't call you pedantic
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
For too long filmmakers have dug themselves into a hole to make it that clear though. I would argue that probably more than half of any theorists there ( without even taking into a count old-liners like Vertov or Bazin of course) wound think that it isn't just as simple. Specially seeing how impactful it is for films the changes that a different screen makes when beeing watched. I mean, we watch films on television all the time, and yes, they are a completely different experience from the 35mm and from the DVD, and we still call them films. Even today you can add grain to something shot with a video camera, but the fact that it was almost impossible to replicate that look in video up until a the last decade also shows that there is no really a way to really think that using the literal term would cover the whole medium, nevertheless we still use it because we are romantics ( and like to think of the damn things rotting somewhere or combusting because of the nitrate).
EternalGamer
Banned
This is the tree in the woods for the new age:
If a program never has any visual elements that can ever be seen under any circumstances, does it exist?
My two cents: I think we call that a "process" not a program.
EternalGamer
Banned
Yeah but I didn't quote him. I just borrowed his example and would have felt too guilty if I had passed it off as my own.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Wah...
They're called video games more I believe because they were games (like ping pong or Monopoly) that you could play on a television, the device that played video. Ergo, video game. Sometimes these names really aren't thought about too much or are straight up wrong (Koala Bears certainly aren't bears), so they shouldn't be blindly followed. As seemingly everyone else indicated the crown jewel for games is their interactivity, and it's why things like full VA or even graphics (like in text adventures, though perhaps sound only can work too) aren't inherently necessary, just so long as I can actually interact with it to some extent.
EternalGamer
Banned
That's a fair point and it certainly muddies the water. But I still think that the film watched on TV and the one watched in theater share enough in common in the experience that I am comfortable enough grouping them together. I mean, if we really want to get down to the nuts and bolts of semiotics, no two things are ever the exact same. Words only exist as generalized abstractions. You could basically make the same argument about the concept of "tree" as we are here discussing about the concept of "film" being different in different places and environments.
jim-jam bongs
Member
look to be totally honest, I'm not even sure you have a solid grasp of your own argument at this point so I'm acting like a smart-arse because it's what I do best in these circumstances. you very nearly hit upon the real issue in this post however so let's explore this a little further.
you make a distinction between the visual and the interior when I put it to you that in creative work there is no such distinction. visual mediums may be better at reproducing visuals, that's a given. but perfect reproduction isn't the goal of every medium, in fact only journalism and documentary film-making strive to reflect things as accurately as possible above all else.
a process or daemon is a class of program. stop saying silly things about art and software, they're my favourite topics.
Don't try to philosoph much because you are bad at it.
Video games are video games.
It isn't matter if it is Heavy Rain, PST or text advanture game all of them are video games. And no, full VA won't work in mayor (meaning much dialogs) RPG.
This is not an opinion, this is fact.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Well yes, I'm saying they are the same; so the 'name' they receive means little at the end because it's based on something that the medium allows to become obsolete.
voodoopanda
Member
I think it's a bad idea to limit things, especially with a young medium like video games. Variety and experimental are good things. There're plenty of video games that emphasize graphics, animation and voice acting over any kind of written word, and they have their strengths and weaknesses. This style of game, if it's trying to be anything like Planescape Torment and other classic RPGs, uses a lot of writing which has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. Video games can be both. It's a style that's lacking nowadays as it seems publishers are pushing for more voice acting etc which is probably one of the reasons it's a Kickstarter.
GAF should have voice acting through. Next gen forums, all threads read aloud.
GAF should have voice acting through. Next gen forums, all threads read aloud.
Where do comic books fit into this idea?
Also note that they are not necessarily comical, despite the word "comic" featuring in the name.
EternalGamer
Banned
I am humbly taking notes on how to properly "philosoph." Apparently it demands a rigorous dedication to the principles of tautology.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Considering they have friends in those companies...
The problem with a full voiced RPG with low budget would be that the game would be lifeless. I'd want that every character had a little personality, a little quirk, but if they had VA for the entire game you would get, what, 4 or 5 people to talk for town? The rest wouldn't talk to you, or just say "patrolling the mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter" or something like that. That, for me, breaks the immersion much more than reading.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah, Avellone and the DA crew are always tweeting their outings.
It's easy to say "well, these guys obviously don't like these other guys", but in reality, everyone mingles with everyone else in the industry.
I am willing to bet they are more focused on perfecting the genre more than talking shit about each other.
EternalGamer
Banned
Oh I think I see what you are getting at. Yeah, I never really meant to make some kind argument out of etymology being a defining principle if that's what you are getting at. And I certainly recognize that mediums evolve to some degree. I was being a bit facetious with my emphasis on the literal inclusion of the word "video" in videogame. But I still think that it is pretty clear that, however much certain aspects of mediums evolve over time they still have biases, strengths and weaknesses. If they evolve beyond those substantially, I think at that point you really have a different medium.
Basileus777
Member
What Obsidian clearly needs to do is just make a visual novel.
EternalGamer
Banned
And they should deliver it on the medium of cupcakes. Everyone likes cupcakes. They have no weakness as a medium.
Yeah, that's basically half of how I feel, it's no good to be constrained by what "must" be done when it really isn't that essential. The other half is that if it's simply not practical, IE takes too much time/money that could be spent on more quests, better branching dialogue, or whatever then I'd rather have that, especially when it's not something that's aiming explicitly for amazing presentation. Not to mention there's no guarantee that putting it through the filter of voice actors will necessarily improve writing, and it may even be restrictive in indirect fashions like they get a bigger budget... then have to play it safer with their game idea than if they didn't worry about that.
And personally I really do feel full VA being seen as a necessity is a travesty in games like RPGs. I'm talking about when every incidental character you can talk to is fully voiced like in Mass Effect, I think the approach in many newer JRPGs and even MMOs like Guild Wars 2 of focusing only on the event scenes and other important areas is best, that's when that argument about emotion and being more effective comes through, not when a random towns person gives me a hint about what I can find in the next dungeon or whatever. Then there's when games like DA:O eviscerate character customization, or KotOR gets ridiculously expensive when it'd probably have been fine aiming a bit lower.
This is probably the only time I'm going to agree with you on anything, ever.
jim-jam bongs
Member
cupcakes are shit.
It's just weak and lifeless and even worse it's easily skipped. Using text, mountains and mountains of text to convey information in a video game is pretty dumb to start with and it doesn't matter whether you have a voice actor to read it or not. Getting the majority of your information through text is something that's just insanely primitive to my way of thinking and completely lacking in any of the artistry of visual and auditory communication that we have seen to be possible.
I mean... what's more effective? A piece of text that says "oh no, there are too many guards at the castle we will need to take the sewers if we want to get there" or seeing a massive fortification of the castle and all the guards? or better yet experiencing trying to get past or through the mass of guards and being forced to go into the sewers? I know where my money is.
The point is text is a crutch.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
L.A. is chalk full of amazing fucking talent that never gets used.
It's insane how low budgets could go if the SAG stopped being wankers (because, right now, it really is Reason #1 why people can't work on what they want to) and game companies stopped relying on big names to voice thirty lines.
jim-jam bongs
Member
well I couldn't very well agree with him now could I
too true, you could have just posted a picture of a pile of fresh faeces instead of all these words.
too true, you could have just posted a picture of a pile of fresh faeces instead of all these words.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Math was off.
If we start with 3 - 5 - 5, and we get three stretch goal upgrades, the end tally looks like:
6 races
8 classes
8 companions
So that would be like 2 humans, 1 elf, 2 dwarves, 1 demon.
Plus you.
I'm down for a nine person party.
Or you could have just posted nothing at all, would have been about the same, all content considered.
