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[Varna]

$65 bucks your way Obsidian. Don't let me down.

Full voice acting is a bad choice. It will only limit where they can take their branching dialogue. We only need it for the very important stuff.

 

[EternalGamer]

I just love how everything EternalGamer wants is window-dressing which doesn't actually improve the gameplay in any way yet he can't understand why people disagree.

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

 

[EndcatOmega]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

I'll take it. Nethack returns.

 

[Emitan]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

One of my favorite games of all time is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup so I wouldn't mind.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

I'll take it. Nethack returns.

checkmate.

 

[whalleywhat]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

What are you mad at? Do you wish this wasn't Kickstarted?

 

[Eusis]

Or with well written and well spoken dialog, you could convey that sensation in a way that is far more powerful than merely telling the reader about it. That passage it is the very definition of "telling not showing."

That'd actually be far more artificial and fake. We're talking about a lone character going to the outside for the first time, that's why I brought up comic panels or a CGI/in-game/whatever cutscene (well, I meant to say the second one). Declaring how amazing it is to see the sun to him/herself would come off more as a bad comic book, a decent bit of descriptive prose will work better in place of an actual scene, and I don't think the alternative angle of narrating the scene would work with Fallout.

And I think there is a very nice middle ground that could be reached by staying true to the type of mechanics and art styles that made those games so memorable but updating the production values (including graphics and voice work) to modern standards. And Obsidian is a big enough studio where they could actually do that whereas there are literally dozens of CRPGs now that are following the model you suggest because it's cheaper and easier to do.

The thing is this DOES cost a lot of money, and Obsidian's mainly afforded their other games by publishers actively funding development. WE are taking the place of those publishers, and unless a lot of people are going to pitch in a few thousand to build up several million they're simply not going to have the same budget they could have. At best they have connections in order to get a few small bits in like those late 90s games, and again I think they stated they'd have that.

Plus I find the idea of HAVING to do something in a newer, modern way to potentially be problematic, especially when it comes to something like graphical styles and VA. You said some people just want to cling to the way things were, but given that efforts like this are smaller and not as common it's something we simply don't get very often. And hell, I imagine most of us do recognize when full or near-full VA has its merits, I don't think many people will be arguing this for shooters afterall.

EDIT: Missed the Ascii thing. Yeah, even beyond Nethack or just going all the way to Ascii there's still 8-bit visuals or even occasionally 32-bit polygonal graphics that can have merit, as Mega Man 9/10 and some DS games showed for each respectively.

 

[BrokenFiction]

If this game had full voice acting I think I would become suicidal. Tasted progress and didn't like it indeed. RPG's just have never been the same since they switched to being full voiced.

I tend to agree with this. I've played many games with and without voice acting and I am moving towards supporting none at all. I'd rather hear the characters in my head in my voice.

 

[Basileus777]

One of my favorite games of all time is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup so I wouldn't mind.

Those types of games are fine, it's just not what you want or expect out of Obsidian. Good gameplay design is not exactly a strength of theirs, in fact it's something you rarely see in their games.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

dwarf fortress is also pure ASCII by default for the record. games which emphasis gameplay don't need no pretty graphics.

 

[Orayn]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

Dude, you're saying this to people who enjoy Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup and Dwarf Fortress. When we say gameplay first, we are not kidding.

 

[DTKT]

Full voice acting would certainly be one, yes. Because I always considered written dialog to just be a result of hardware and budgetary limitations rather than intentional design. Like I said above, it is, afterall, dialog, which by definition is words characters are supposed to be speaking.

As for CG, actually In don't particularly like CG and never have because it creates too much discontinuity. At it's best, it is merely a visual treat but still one that, most of the time, breaks too far from in game visuals to really enhance immersion.

Although I know it isn't feasible with this particular project due to budget limitations, I also think these old games could use some updates in terms of how they handle cameras. I realize the far back view they take is optimal for a lot of strategic battles but there is no reason you need to maintain that view constantly. I think the new X-com games way of handling dynamic camera is a good example of how you can marry that kind of traditional view with occasional more dramatic action shots. And that certainly would be a lot cooler for narrative or dilaog moments if you could actually see character's faces rather than always staring at everything like a bird up in a tree. Again, I realize for this project that kind of thing isn't feasible, but it is an example of how I think the genre could benefit dramatically from updated production values while still capitalizing on what people love about the genre.

If a publisher was willing to invest 25 mil into a full blown RPG, I would totally be with you. I just think all these features just can't fit in Infinity which is a much smaller game than things like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. Let them concentrate on what they do well, great characters, moral choices and complex story lines.

As for the dialog being just spoken words between characters, that's up for debate. The way I see it, older games used text to describe the environments because graphical resources were limited and they had to "liven up" the world through the text. Now, graphical fidelity is such that we can show instead of directly telling the player what is around him. At the same time, I don't think the industry is able to craft environments that can beat the descriptiveness and the poesy of the written word.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

VA cost money. The voice actors need a good director to not be a akwardfest. Presentation as VA and CG although commendableis not essential in this case, needs to be limited to the scope of the game and intend.

I agree that presentation matters but what you are suggesting are pretty superficial things or that limits gameplay/story/scope.

 

[EternalGamer]

More than that, it means less game for more presentation. If the game's budget was unlimited I wouldn't mind way more VA but if it's a choice of one city getting fully voiced vs a brand new city to quest in throw out the VA!

You're right it means trading less game for more presentation. But from my very first sentence I stated that I care more about quality than quantity. I wasn't hiding that fact; I clearly drew that distinction. Most videogames waste my time far too much and drag things out long after their mechanics or their narratives have anything meaningful left to gleened from them. Not to mention the sheer quantity of games there are to play nowdays.

I absolutely want to sacrifice "more game" for better presentation. Always and for ever. I will die one day. If a game has amazingly wonderful things to show me for all 80 hours, then by all means, I'm ready and willing. But if I'm just going to be killing x number of frogs again on the 24th non-descript side quest or listening to some convoluted lore as a part of a paper thin Mcguffin designed solely to stretch out the game for 10 more hours, then no thank you.

 

[Orayn]

You're right it means trading less game for more presentation.

They that can give up essential gameplay to purchase a little superficial presentation deserve neither.

 

[Screaming_Gremlin]

I tend to agree with this. I've played many games with and without voice acting and I am moving towards supporting none at all. I'd rather hear the characters in my head in my voice.

I don't flat out hate voice acting. I actually think the way Alpha Protocol handled it was pretty amazing and in that situation removing voice acting would be detrimental to the game. That said, it wouldn't work at all for a game like Planescape Torment. And based on what they have said about Eternity, I don't think having massive amounts of voice acting makes any sense either.

 

[MrCunningham]

Already 1.2 Million. The 1.4 and 1.6 stretch goals will be easy to obtain for them. I wouldn't be surprised if this one hit all of its stretch goals, with the speed it is going at.

 

[Basileus777]

They that can give up essential gameplay to purchase a little superficial presentation deserve neither.

Who do you think is making this game? These types of comments make no sense for a title developed by Obsidian.

 

[Emitan]

You're right it means trading less game for more presentation. But from my very first sentence I stated that I care more about quality than quantity. I wasn't hiding that fact; I clearly drew that distinction. Most videogames waste my time far too much and drag things out long after their mechanics or their narratives have anything meaningful left to gleened from them. Not to mention the sheer quantity of games there are to play nowdays.

I absolutely want to sacrifice "more game" for better presentation. Always and for ever. I will die one day. If a game has amazingly wonderful things to show me for all 80 hours, then by all means, I'm ready and willing. But if I'm just going to be killing x number of frogs again on the 24th non-descript side quest or listening to some convoluted lore as a part of a paper thin Mcguffin designed solely to stretch out the game for 10 more hours, then no thank you.

Have you played an Avellone game before? You're acting like this game is going to be filled with fluff writing by talentless hacks.

 

[EternalGamer]

Dude, you're saying this to people who enjoy Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup and Dwarf Fortress. When we say gameplay first, we are not kidding.

Yes I'm aware people can and do still enjoy games with very primitive artstyle. But I am still suspicious that people would be as excited for this game if it were just merely ASCII art or text based. My point is acting like production values don't matter to you at all and that anybody who does care about them is just being shallow strikes me as disingenuous.

 

[whalleywhat]

As for the dialog being just spoken words between characters, that's up for debate. The way I see it, older games used text to describe the environments because graphical resources were limited and they had to "liven up" the world through the text. Now, graphical fidelity is such that we can show instead of directly telling the player what is around him. At the same time, I don't think the industry is able to craft environments that can beat the descriptiveness and the poesy of the written word.

I think it's also because they have their roots in RPGs like D&D. The DM describes the world to you and what happens.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

You're right it means trading less game for more presentation. But from my very first sentence I stated that I care more about quality than quantity. I wasn't hiding that fact; I clearly drew that distinction. Most videogames waste my time far too much and drag things out long after their mechanics or their narratives have anything meaningful left to gleened from them. Not to mention the sheer quantity of games there are to play nowdays.

I absolutely want to sacrifice "more game" for better presentation. Always and for ever. I will die one day. If a game has amazingly wonderful things to show me for all 80 hours, then by all means, I'm ready and willing. But if I'm just going to be killing x number of frogs again on the 24th non-descript side quest or listening to some convoluted lore as a part of a paper thin Mcguffin designed solely to stretch out the game for 10 more hours, then no thank you.

To me at least, is better quality to have a well written and thoughtful script in the game than have tons of bored voice actors saying corny lines cause they couldn't hire a decent VA director cause they pay a lot of money to hire a celebrity

 

[EternalGamer]

Have you played an Avellone game before? You're acting like this game is going to be filled with fluff writing by talentless hacks.

No, now you are just creating a strawman out of my argument. I merely suggested that even good writers benefit from restraints. I said nothing about anybody being a talentless hack. But yes, there are certainly places where I think some of his older games could definitely benefit from an editor. Granted I realize that if went down that path and into specifics, all hell and fire would be reined upon my head, so I'm not going to be bated into doing so. I will say, though, that I am probably a lot more picky about my prose than most people since it is how I make my living.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Since gameplay is clearly the only thing that is important at all maybe they should just just design the characters and the world in ASCII art. It save them a hell of a lot on budget.

We of course know that there is no median between this and the fully voice acted opus jacked up with CG scenes.

 

[sueil]

Yes I'm aware people can and do still enjoy games with very primitive artstyle. But I am still suspicious that people would be as excited for this game if it were just merely ASCII art or text based. My point is acting like production values don't matter to you at all and that anybody who does care about them is just being shallow strikes me as disingenuous.

People are throwing money at this game because it is like the games of old that are no longer made. People want that old style of game. If you think the game needs voice acting, co-op, support for steam big screen mode etc... then you clearly do not understand this type of game at all. Not every game is made for every person. There are plenty of new style RPGs with everything you could ever ask for. Fans of the old infinity games just want another which it has been a long time since we have had one.

 

[Orayn]

Who do you think is making this game? These types of comments make no sense for a title developed by Obsidian.

I'm aware that gameplay is always going to be intertwined with "presentation" elements to a certain extent in an RPG. In this case, I'm drawing the line at making a major design decision that would cost us a large amount of meaty, substantive, interactive game content in exchange for making it easier for a relatively small portion of the audience to suspend their disbelief.

 

[EndcatOmega]

I'm no expert on game development, but when's voice acting usually done? The earlier it is, the more it 'locks in' lines of dialogue.

 

[EternalGamer]

To me at least, is better quality to have a well written and thoughtful script in the game than have tons of bored voice actors saying corny lines cause they couldn't hire a decent VA director cause they pay a lot of money to hire a celebrity

I understand the concern, but I think there is a bit of a false choice being presented in your example. I don't think the only options are "bad actor" or "expensive celebrity." I'm also not sure how a "corny line" is better written than it is spoken. As I said, if anything, it gives it one more chance to be cause because in speaking it people are more likely to realize that it shouldn't be there to begin with.

 

[hemtae]

If this game was like Bloodlines or Alpha Protocol then yes, it would benefit from full voice acting. But since they stated they were going for more of a IE type of game, full VA is just unnecessary and is just money taken away from other areas that it could be more of use.

 

[Orayn]

I understand the concern, but I think there is a bit of a false choice being presented in your example. I don't think the only options are "bad actor" or "expensive celebrity."

"Expensive" is the only price voice acting comes at, thanks to the Screen Actors Guild. This is assuming they use professionals like you'd no doubt expect them to.

 

[Taruranto]

What the fuck i'm reading.

 

[EternalGamer]

People are throwing money at this game because it is like the games of old that are no longer made. People want that old style of game. If you think the game needs voice acting, co-op, support for steam big screen mode etc... then you clearly do not understand this type of game at all. Not every game is made for every person. There are plenty of new style RPGs with everything you could ever ask for. Fans of the old infinity games just want another which it has been a long time since we have had one.

By yours and others reactions you would think I suggested that they turn it into a First Person Shooter. I merely suggested that dialog, which again is litterly defined as something that is supposed to be spoken, could perhaps be actually spoken.

I do indeed enjoy this style of game both mechanically and visually. I just simply don't find it terribly enjoyable to read reams of text off a monitor, especially when there is a feasible alternative.

jimjam is certainly correct that I am a bit perplexed by how virulent the knee jerk reaction is, though. I mean, I get it that people just want the same thing but I didn't know it went that deep or heavy emotionally. And I thought Nintendo fans were reactionary and touchy bunch.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I understand the concern, but I think there is a bit of a false choice being presented in your example. I don't think the only options are "bad actor" or "expensive celebrity." I'm also not sure how a "corny line" is better written than it is spoken. As I said, if anything, it gives it one more chance to be cause because in speaking it people are more likely to realize that it shouldn't be there to begin with.

Of course there is more options, but it cost money. Specially in this case

 

[Vaporak]

I just simply don't agree on the idea of the text heavy philosophy of game design. When I play a lot of older CRPG games and I read that dialog, I often find myself thinking that if someone had to read this shit out loud, then an actor might look up at the producer and give a look like "Are you serious?" that would serve the editing process well. Or that if they actually had to reign themselves in due to budget or time constraints, we would get less badly written drafty prose and lore descriptions that are far more convoluted than they need be and more sharp, vivid prose in its place. Putting that kind of constraint upon writers is a good thing, in my opinion. Somewhere there may very well be mad visionary geniuses who could write reams of text and whose artistic brilliance would be heavily compromised by such a process, but I'm not convinced those people are writing scripts for CRPGs. But again, as I said from the start, I am more concerned with quality than quantity.

So just wondering, do you think novels are directly inferior to film?

 

[Emitan]

So just wondering, do you think novels are directly inferior to film?

Not if you get the audiobook!

 

[sueil]

By yours and others reactions you would think I suggested that they turn it into a First Person Shooter. I merely suggested that dialog, which again is litterly defined as something that is supposed to be spoken, could perhaps be actually spoken.

I do indeed enjoy this style of game both mechanically and visually. I just simply don't find it terribly enjoyable to read reams of text off a monitor, especially when there is a feasible alternative.

You suggest big picture mode support. Which is meant to be played with a controller. Which is the antithesis of how isometric rpgs played. It would be a huge fundamental shift in the gameplay. Voice acting in a game like this not a feasible alternative. It severely restricts style of story they can tell, the style of gameplay it can have and also is incredibly expensive.

 

[Fjordson]

I think voice acting like in the early Fallouts is nice. Happens for key conversations and characters and helps brings them to life (for me at least).

That being said, I don't need extensive voice acting. Or any VA I guess.

 

[DTKT]

You suggest big picture mode support. Which is meant to be played with a controller. Which is the antithesis of how isometric rpgs played. It would be a huge fundamental shift in the gameplay. Voice acting in a game like this not a feasible alternative. It severely restricts style of story they can tell, the style of gameplay it can have and also is incredibly expensive.

Don't set me on fire, but I could see Planescape with controller support. It already features a lot of radial menus and those are perfect for the controller.

You just need to adapt the interface and that's a challenge.

 

[O.DOGG]

I don't care for full voice acting. Even in high budget RPGs unimportant NPCs sound ridiculously bad. I would however mind if they had absolutely no voice acting whatsoever. I consider Torment to be done perfectly - VA for all the party + the important characters in the world. That's perfect. They were all voiced well too. I hope they go for more of the same with Eternity.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yes I'm aware people can and do still enjoy games with very primitive artstyle. But I am still suspicious that people would be as excited for this game if it were just merely ASCII art or text based. My point is acting like production values don't matter to you at all and that anybody who does care about them is just being shallow strikes me as disingenuous.

that's not really the point, everyone likes nice things. even torment had quite a lot of va and cg. it's just that the things you're talking about are hardly as mandatory as major publishers seem to believe they are, and often come at the expense of more actual game content because they're so expensive to produce.

getting timothy olyphant to voice the lead character would make me excited because I'm in love with him, sure. but if it cost $500k to pay him for his work and that meant cutting whole areas from the game, for example, I'd happily tell him to take a walk.

 

[EternalGamer]

So just wondering, do you think novels are directly inferior to film?

No I think they are a different medium with different strengths. Obviously films are better ad doing things that involve conveying visual and aural elements. Dialog is one of those things since is aural. But books are better at interiority, which films are, because of the limitations of the medium, have a very difficult time with; it is hard for a film to convey inner thoughts the way you can through text narration. Books are also better at conveying and replicating a sense of the passage of time since they are experiences most people interact with over a period of days rather than in two short hours.

Similarly, since videogames are a visual and aural medium but often are interacted with over longer periods of time they have a few things in common with each. One thing I don't think they are particularly good at, though, is trying to be novels by making you pause the interaction and read large chunks of text off a monitor. Although I recognize this was and still remains sometimes a necessary evil.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

By yours and others reactions you would think I suggested that they turn it into a First Person Shooter. I merely suggested that dialog, which again is litterly defined as something that is supposed to be spoken, could perhaps be actually spoken.

You suggest that is primitive not have full VA, altought in this specific case is less a technological problem and more a economic one.

I do indeed enjoy this style of game both mechanically and visually. I just simply don't find it terribly enjoyable to read reams of text off a monitor, especially when there is a feasible alternative.

Except there is no alternative in this case. Unless you want a 12 hour game

jimjam is certainly correct that I am a bit perplexed by how virulent the knee jerk reaction is, though. I mean, I get it that people just want the same thing but I didn't know it went that deep or heavy emotionally. And I thought Nintendo fans were reactionary and touchy bunch.

I have not played any CRPG in my life, yet I will donate and I plan to play some of this games in the near feature.

 

[water_wendi]

If the game is going to be similar to Planescape in terms of word density fully voiced acting would not work. Take the Sensate stone stories.

I stood debating with Amnas the Horribly Slow, Keeper of the Lion Key, as to whether or not my quest was important enough for him to relinquish the artifact into my care. The whole experience was an exercise in sheer torment... each and every one of his words was followed by a significant pause; each and every pointhe made was reiterated time and again before he let me speak. I presented an argument... then waited, and waited, and *waited* while he made his counterpoint. To which I shot out a snappy counterpoint of my own...then must wait yet again for another of Amnas' drawling, meandering, seemingly endless counterpoints. It was everything I could do not to simply lop the fiend's tusked head off and snatch the key from the twitching corpse...

I stood on the deck of my flagship, the Divine Hammer, as it floated over the continent of Agarheim, held aloft by the winds of magic. The very landscape roiled and shuddered beneath the bombardment of my fleet,one thousand ships' cannons and bombards hurling their sorcerous fire down like vengeful gods. The shockwaves had begun to hit my ship only minutes ago - a constant vibration that sent shudders through the whole of the ancient craft and moved my very bones - accompanied by a constant, rumbling bass. As the land's mountains began to sink and the seas that surrounded it begin to boil off into the atmosphere, my first officer came to stand beside me."My Lord Admiral... permission to speak freely, sir."I nodded my acquiescence, my stomach sinking as I guessed at his question."My lord... forgive me, but how? What gives us the right? A billion lives..."I spoke without turning to him, unable to take my eyes off Rhumos, the nation's vast capital city, as it vaporized into a cloud of super-heated gasses twelve miles across and growing ever-wider. "If you only knew the full treachery of the Agarites, First Officer Felm, one which is beyond most any man's comprehension... then you would know. You would speak of our right to annihilate them? We've no right tolet them live."

"But... sir? Traitors, all of them? Surely, among the hundreds of thousands. How many innocents-"

"Silence! Speak of it no more - our king has spoken, His will be done. The task set to us is a horrible one,not fit for contemplation or questioning. There is no room for pity, no room for remorse - only *duty.*"The two of us stood silently for a time, watching the last minutes of Agarheim. At long last I sighed... a low,stuttering exhalation that sounded as if something had broken inside me. Beneath the brazen plate thatcovered the ruined half of my face, my dead eye began to weep...

"Falm... my friend... I would have you understand. I know now, as I look down at what I have wrought here,that were I to think upon what I have done... what I have *truly* done... I would be struck mad. A deed suchas this... the anguish would overwhelm, destroy me. So, First Officer Falm, it must be that there *are* noinnocents in Agarheim... no mothers, no children, no *people.* Only traitors. Vile, cunning traitors, whodeserve no less than the full brunt of our most Holy King's wrath. Do you understand this?"

"Y-yes, m'lord."

"Good. Now go... I wish to be alone, here."

"By your command, Lord Admiral." Falm bowed his head and returned below deck, leaving me to stand over the end of a civilization.

Full voice acting doesnt really work for this type of game experience.

 

[Grayman]

partial VA and talking heads will help convey the characterization to the player and having text only allows a lot content and for iteration to be done if needed.

 

[Labombadog]

Didn't have a chance to post this, but I did contribute to this Kickstarter and high excited for this project to come in 2014! I gave them $20 even though I am completely effing broke....I love you Obsidian. :,(

*tears of joy*

 

[EternalGamer]

You suggest big picture mode support. Which is meant to be played with a controller. .

No, it doesn't. I have two PCs. One at a desk and one on a large TV. I can use a keyboard and mouse with both. Big picture support would merely mean that I could actually read the damn interface when I am sitting at a distance.

 

[Emitan]

No, it doesn't. I have two PCs. One at a desk and one on a large TV. I can use a keyboard and mouse with both. Big picture support would merely mean that I could actually read the damn interface when I am sitting at a distance.

That's not what big picture mode is...

 

[EternalGamer]

That's not what big picture mode is...

It's not? Well fuck me because that's what I've been using it for and it works pretty damn great. Before I could not see anything at all when I used Steam on my TV. I would have to get over and go next to the TV and squint. And now with big picture mode, I can see everything clearly.

Controller navigation is only one feature of big picture mode. If it were the only feature then it would be called "controller navigation" not "big picture mode." I kind of assumed that "Big Picture Mode" was not just a clever name and was actually meant as a descriptor.

 

[Emitan]

It's not? Well fuck me because that's what I've been using it for and it works pretty damn great. Before I could not see anything at all when I used Steam on my TV. I would have to get over and go next to the TV and squint. And now with big picture mode, I can see everything clearly.

Controller navigation is only one feature of big picture mode. If it were the only feature then it would be called "controller navitagion" not "big picture mode."

That has nothing to do with the game being played. That's just the Steam interface.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Something doesn't sound practical there...