What's the fascination with voice acting?! To quote myself:
Edit: Wendi has better examples.
Edit: Wendi has better examples.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian Entertainment (Kickstarter) [Up: Teaser]
- Thread starter duckroll
- Start date
EternalGamer
Banned
That has nothing to do with the game being played. That's just the Steam interface.
I'm not even sure what you are arguing. Yes, it is a big picture mode support for Steam. A big picture mode like feature for other products would similarly mean I would not have to squint to see the interface and options on the screen since it was (hence the clever name) designed to work with a big picture.
whalleywhat
Member
jimjam is certainly correct that I am a bit perplexed by how virulent the knee jerk reaction is, though. I mean, I get it that people just want the same thing but I didn't know it went that deep or heavy emotionally. And I thought Nintendo fans were reactionary and touchy bunch.
You're actually trying to be tiresome here, right? Good lord.
I'm not even sure what you are arguing. Yes, it is a big picture mode support for Steam. A big picture mode like feature for other products would similarly mean I would not have to squint to see the interface and options on the screen since it was (hence the clever name) designed to work with a big picture.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Big Picture Mode makes the Steam interface larger. What does this have to do with Project Eternity?
jim-jam bongs
Member
personally I was leaning towards "pedantic and insufferable" but tiresome does sum it up pretty neatly.
SerArthurDayne
Member
You're actually trying to be tiresome here, right? Good lord.
Check post count. Check member status. There is probably something there.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I'm not sure what you're saying. Big Picture Mode makes the Steam interface larger. What does this have to do with Project Eternity?
Progress? (in the really weird and impractical way that Eternal Gamer seems to perceive it)
EternalGamer
Banned
What's the fascination with voice acting?! To quote myself:
No, but you could show that, literally, rather than tell it. In fact, when I read that very passage I see someone that wishes they could show you what it actually looks like in their head but limitations at the time prevented them from doing it justice. So they just had to describe what they saw in their head instead.
That is not to take anything away from the passage. Far greater writers have resorted to "telling" when they had an inability to communicate a vivid visual image:
"O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!
. . . . . . . . . . . .
So great an object: can this cockpit hold
The vasty fields of France? or may we cram
Within this wooden O the very casques
That did affright the air at Agincourt?"
-Henry V
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
No, but you could show that, literally, rather than tell it. In fact, when I read that very passage I see someone that wishes they could show you what it actually looks like in their head but limitations at the time prevented them from doing it justice. So they just had to describe what they saw in their head instead.
That is not to take anything away from the passage. Far greater writers have resorted to "telling" when they had an inability to communicate a vivid visual image:
"O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!"
-Henry V
Showing that in a video game is nowhere near as effective as reading it and letting imagination do the rest.
How games like Torment did voice acting is perfect. Have a few select lines be voice acted, i.e. opening dialogue with new important characters, and have random companion banter and voices in-combat acted out. The rest should largely be text.
Once you hear a character's voice even once, it becomes easy to read the rest of their lines in that voice.
Once you hear a character's voice even once, it becomes easy to read the rest of their lines in that voice.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
The game also needs "Updated my journal."
No, but you could show that, literally, rather than tell it.
No, you can't show those things. Videogames are far from expressing visually what can be expressed in words.
Some games do well with VA, some don't, and others need a perfect middle ground like this. I would be more than pleased if we got something like Torment/Fallout.How games like Torment did voice acting is perfect. Have a few select lines be voice acted, i.e. opening dialogue with new important characters, and have random companion banter and voices in-combat acted out. The rest should largely be text.
Once you hear a character's voice even once, it becomes easy to read the rest of their lines in that voice.
EternalGamer
Banned
No, you can't show those things. Videogames are far from expressing visually what can be expressed in words.
Really? Because when I read this passage:
man was looking at me with a strange, bug-eyed stare. His eyes were huge… so huge they looked ready to pop out of his sockets and roll across the cobblestones. He nodded eagerly as I approached, bobbing his head like a bird
I want to actually see that creature and I want to see it's eyes animate and walk in that fashion as is described. But then there is a disconnect between what I am reading and what I visually see on the screen. Which is, in it's own way, as disconcerting as the juxtaposition of CGI with in game graphics. The problem of CG is that you want to go "Wait, this is not what the characters/settings actually look like." The same can be true of the juxtaposition of that kind of text with the actual images you see on screen. If it were just text alone, as it is in a novel, I might agree that it can be a powerful element for envisioning (though I would disagree that it can be as powerful as literally seeing the thing--that seems contradictory). But since it is text combined with a visual image displayed on the screen that in a lot of ways contradicts what the text is showing you, the elements work against each other to some degree.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Far greater writers have resorted to "telling" when they had an inability to communicate a vivid visual image
... um. Writer here.
Not really.
I mean.
It's not like we actually mean for there to be a man eating shit from a fox in TV adaptations.
You think Roald Dahl, when writing The Giants, was thinking "man, it would be awesome if we could actually show this shit"?
Books are written strictly because we can't show this shit.
It's the same reason people write fuckin' music.
Do you know how shitty music videos would be if they were actual literal adaptations of the lyrics?
EternalGamer
Banned
... um. Writer here.
Not really.
I mean.
It's not like we actually mean for there to be a man eating shit from a fox in TV adaptations.
You think Roald Dahl, when writing The Giants, was thinking "man, it would be awesome if we could actually show this shit"?
Books are written strictly because we can't show this shit.
It's the same reason people write fuckin' musicals.
Yes there are some elements such as interiority or metaphor that books can communicate better, as I indicated earlier. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not other elements, such as visual pictures or dialog can't be better realized in other mediums.
Anyway, it wasn't even my example. If you disagree that writers are sometimes frustrated with the limitations of the written word and the inability to visualize what is in their head, you should take up with Shakespeare since he is the one that wrote those words, not me.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Really? Because when I read this passage:
I want to actually see that creature and I want to see it's eyes animate and walk in that fashion as is described. But then there is a disconnect between what I am reading and what I visually see on the screen. Which is, in it's own way, as disconcerting as the juxtaposition of CGI with in game graphics. The problem of CG is that you want to go "Wait, this is not what the characters/settings actually look like." The same can be true of the juxtaposition of that kind of text with the actual images you see on screen. If it were just text alone, as it is in a novel, I might agree that it can be a powerful element for envisioning (though I would disagree that it can be as powerful as literally seeing the thing--that seems contradictory). But since it is text combined with a visual image displayed on the screen that in a lot of ways contradicts what the text is showing you, the elements work against each other to some degree.
Right. And even current high-budget games probably can't do that justice. In this situation then I find that more minimal graphics cause the least distraction from the imagery created by the text, where a half-successful attempt to convey that visually would detract. Old IE games hit a nice balance that I'm hopeful we can revisit.
It has to go to 2.2m!!!
When I saw your avatar I thought it was MCA with a mustache. I'm really hoping at some point the add mod tools of some kind. The IE games have had some great mods made over the years and I can't imagine what would be possible with actual tools available for this game. Just hope we don't get something like Imoen Romance.
If it were just text alone, as it is in a novel, I might agree that it can be a powerful element for envisioning (though I would disagree that it can be as powerful as literally seeing the thing--that seems contradictory).
Your imagination is a hugely powerful tool, or should be. It's the reason that a film adapted from a book tends to be so different from its source material, and is met with highly varying responses. Books are very personal because text is highly reliant on your own imagination to create images, give voice to characters, and so on.
But since it is text combined with a visual image displayed on the screen that in a lot of ways contradicts what the text is showing you, the elements work against each other to some degree.
I don't see what the contradiction is there. It's not like Reekwind (the character that bit of text centers around) is depicted as some regal guy in glorious, flowing satin robes. His character model gives you something to start with, and the text combined with your imagination and how evocative the setting in general is work together to breathe life into him.
That the text is so detailed and vivid only makes it easier to envision what is going on.
jim-jam bongs
Member
are we now at the point where writing is just a poor man's showing and the written word is obsolete? was writing always just a stopgap solution before CG became good enough?
Really? Because when I read this passage:
I want to actually see that creature and I want to see it's eyes animate and walk in that fashion as is described. But then there is a disconnect between what I am reading and what I visually see on the screen. Which is, in it's own way, as disconcerting as the juxtaposition of CGI with in game graphics. The problem of CG is that you want to go "Wait, this is not what the characters/settings actually look like." The same can be true of the juxtaposition of that kind of text with the actual images you see on screen. If it were just text alone, as it is in a novel, I might agree that it can be a powerful element for envisioning (though I would disagree that it can be as powerful as literally seeing the thing--that seems contradictory). But since it is text combined with a visual image displayed on the screen that in a lot of ways contradicts what the text is showing you, the elements work against each other to some degree.
I don't see where the disconnect comes from. Torment was an isometric game. All you really see are character silhouette and colours. Rest is explained through writing. There's barely any animation.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
It should noted that Shakespeare wrote theater, and theater also have this debates about showing or telling and BUDGET
EternalGamer
Banned
Right. And even current high-budget games probably can't do that justice. In this situation then I find that more minimal graphics cause the least distraction from the imagery created by the text, where a half-successful attempt to convey that visually would detract. Old IE games hit a nice balance that I'm hopeful we can revisit.
That's certainly a fair point.
I myself have often thought that the older Final Fantasy games evoke a lot more emotions than the newer ones because the characters facial depictions and their body animations work more as metaphors: squinting eyes of disappointment, waving arms up and jumping and down indicates excitement or anger, etc. Whereas the newer ones the faces are far too plastic to convey real human emotion. We are perhaps only one generation away from getting there and then that will be preferred but for now there is a huge uncanny valley effect.
But that still doesn't change the general point that it would be better if you could use visual and aural elements it would be better given that the medium itself is visual and aural. And while fully rendering that kind of visual element may be out of reach, I'm not sure that rendering the aural element (especially when it comes to dialog) is. I guess I would have to know more about the actual cost of voice work per page/hour and the average amount of pages of text in a game of this size before we could come to a reasonable conclusion about whether or not it is feasible. I admit that it is a sheer guess, but I'm willing to bet that a game that is in the low multi-millions could swing the budget, but I'd be interested in a detailed breakdown one way or the other.
Base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions. We have ideas for these, but we want to hear your opinions on what you'd like to see.
nonononononononononononononononononononope.
I hope it's just a way of encouraging discussion and speculation, and nothing more.
EternalGamer
Banned
I don't see where the disconnect comes from. Torment was an isometric game. All you really see are character silhouette and colours. Rest is explained through writing. There's barely any animation.
Right there is barely any animation. But yet you have having this very heavily animated thing being described to you. And yet, when you look at it, it's not animating in that way at all. That is why I said it is akin to the disconnect in CG vs. in game graphics.
The problem is that you are right that your imagination is very powerful. But then videogames aren't a typographic medium. They are visual one. Hence the dilemma of relying on typographic means of description.
Really? Because when I read this passage:
I want to actually see that creature and I want to see it's eyes animate and walk in that fashion as is described. But then there is a disconnect between what I am reading and what I visually see on the screen. Which is, in it's own way, as disconcerting as the juxtaposition of CGI with in game graphics. The problem of CG is that you want to go "Wait, this is not what the characters/settings actually look like." The same can be true of the juxtaposition of that kind of text with the actual images you see on screen. If it were just text alone, as it is in a novel, I might agree that it can be a powerful element for envisioning (though I would disagree that it can be as powerful as literally seeing the thing--that seems contradictory). But since it is text combined with a visual image displayed on the screen that in a lot of ways contradicts what the text is showing you, the elements work against each other to some degree.
Text is not merely a poor substitute for visuals. There is a level of nuance and feeling that can be expressed through text that cannot with visuals (and vice versa.) In text you can show subtle shades of how a character is feeling, the memories they might associate with things, or the quick thoughts that would otherwise not be appropriate in dialogue. As games can use both text and imagery at the same time, my favorites are the ones that use both effectively. A picture might be worth a thousand words, but sometimes words are worth a thousand pictures.
Yes there are some elements such as interiority or metaphor that books can communicate better, as I indicated earlier. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not other elements, such as visual pictures or dialog can't be better realized in other mediums.
Anyway, it wasn't even my example. If you disagree that writers are sometimes frustrated with the limitations and the inability to visualize what is in their head, you should take up with Shakespeare since he is the one that wrote those words, not me.
You do realize that what you said need to be created by top performers ?
Look at Mass Efect, whole game is VA and a lot of that VA is cringe worthy.
In games there are rarely good examples of good voice acting, mostly it's bad if it comes to RPG gengre.
Bloodlines had some awesome VA but thanks to it there weren't as much dialog as in other RPGs.
I agree what you said about voice and how it can enchance lines. But this is kickstarter. There is simply no place for full VA no mater how hard you want it. Not only because it is pricey but also because it restricts what can be made with dialogs. In case of kickstarter time is crucial part of creating game if some quest designer what to improve quest lines to sound better in late production after VA was recorder he must scrap all most of it and start againg recording VA. That is mayor restriction.
What people said earlier is best case. Few lines of VA like in Torment or Baldurs Gate.
----------------
----------------
As of creating romances in Eternity.
Avellone was responsible for Torment romances. That should give you hint what they would be like. (total oposition to Bioware).
Annah was started somewhat but it didn't go anywhere.
Fall on Grace was just toying with TNO and it didn't go anywhere.
FNV:
Cass simply don't like to start one
Veronica likes girls.
Avellone romances, are best romances
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Videogames can be a typographic medium, text adventures exist you know?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
There is no way yet to translate this description into images in modern games without wasting too much resources.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Cue6QXgrA
Besides, this is the last bastion of this type of game, many others are moving in the direction you want, with the Uncharted series being the best at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Cue6QXgrA
Besides, this is the last bastion of this type of game, many others are moving in the direction you want, with the Uncharted series being the best at it.
Shake Appeal
Member
For a moment I realized part of why we don't get games like Torment these days is that some people believe written words are inherently deficient when compared to a visual treatment of what they describe.
And then I remembered we funded Project Eternity and saved videogames and all was well again.
And then I remembered we funded Project Eternity and saved videogames and all was well again.
EternalGamer
Banned
are we now at the point where writing is just a poor man's showing and the written word is obsolete? was writing always just a stopgap solution before CG became good enough?
I know you think I'm being pedantic but I make the qualifications I make for a reason. So I wish if you were going to passively aggressively respond to my arguments you would actually not just resort in turning them into strawmen. I said multiple times, so many times I"m sure it is getting annoying for some people to read, that writing can accomplish some tasks--especially those related to interiority--much better than visual mediums. But visual mediums, obviously, can communicate visuals better. That seems pretty self evident to me.
If I just witnessed a car crash and I wrote a description to you about what happened and somebody else videotaped the crash, obviously the videotape is the superior means to observing what happened in the crash. But if I was trying to describe how it felt--the psychological sensation of being in the crash--then the written word would probably better suit that purpose.
Right there is barely any animation. But yet you have having this very heavily animated thing being described to you. And yet, when you look at it, it's not animating in that way at all. That is why I said it is akin to the disconnect in CG vs. in game graphics.
The problem is that you are right that your imagination is very powerful. But then videogames aren't a typographic medium. They are visual one. Hence the dilemma of relying on typographic means of description.
You're looking at this in a weird way. Writing (in these instances) is supposed to supplement or compensate visuals, not translate. There'd be a disconnect if something is lost in translation, but there is no translation from writing to visuals to begin with.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Hey, I kind of remember this lady going all crazy for me, to the point that she started burning my flesh when I kissed her. (now just imagine how awkward would be to try to put that on a cutscene)----------------
----------------
As of creating romances in Eternity.
Avellone was responsible for Torment romances. That should give you hint what they would be like. (total oposition to Bioware).
Annah was started somewhat but it didn't go anywhere.
Fall on Grace was just toying with TNO and it didn't go anywhere.
FNV:
Cass simply don't like to start one
Veronica likes girls.
Avellone romances, are best romances
EternalGamer
Banned
Videogames can be a typographic medium, text adventures exist you know?
I recognize that what you are saying is literally true. And in reality any medium can be used for any type of information. I can use the medium of smoke signals to communicate a dissertation on the nature of autonomy. That doesn't make it a good idea though because that clearly isn't what that medium is best used for.
I think the same could be said of text adventures. I mean, they are called VIDEO games.
I recognize that what you are saying is literally true. And in reality any medium can be used for any type of information. I can use the medium of smoke signals to communicate a dissertation on the nature of autonomy. That doesn't make it a good idea though because that clearly isn't what that medium is best for.
I think the same could be said of text adventures. I mean, they are called VIDEO games.
How utterly pedantic.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You're looking at this in a weird way.
He is looking a lot of things in a weird way. (see Steam Big Picture Mode post)
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
If you disagree that writers are sometimes frustrated with the limitations of the written word and the inability to visualize what is in their head, you should take up with Shakespeare since he is the one that wrote those words, not me.
... wow. You really told me.
EternalGamer
Banned
You're looking at this in a weird way. Writing (in these instances) is supposed to supplement or compensate visuals, not translate. There'd be a disconnect if something is lost in translation, but there is no translation from writing to visuals to begin with.
People could (and do) make the exact same arguments for CG; that they are there to compliment or supplement the in game visuals. I personally find it not to be the case, though.
Totally agreed. The bolded is especially true for me, I like that.How games like Torment did voice acting is perfect. Have a few select lines be voice acted, i.e. opening dialogue with new important characters, and have random companion banter and voices in-combat acted out. The rest should largely be text.
Once you hear a character's voice even once, it becomes easy to read the rest of their lines in that voice.
EternalGamer
Banned
How utterly pedantic.
I don't really see how pointing out the fact that this is a visual based medium and its very name emphasizes this is all that persnickety. But hey, if you think you found a good place to stab the knife, twist away.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I recognize that what you are saying is literally true. And in reality any medium can be used for any type of information. I can use the medium of smoke signals to communicate a dissertation on the nature of autonomy. That doesn't make it a good idea though because that clearly isn't what that medium is best for.
I think the same could be said of text adventures. I mean, they are called VIDEO games.
Well, films are still called films when you watch them on blu-rays. Of course we can call them talkies too, or movies, just movies.
Well, now I wonder, how many other terms are there for video games?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Interactive Story Telling
I don't really see how pointing out the fact that this is a visual based medium and its very name emphasizes this is all that persnickety. But hey, if you think you found a good place to stab the knife, twist away.
Your argument against text adventures has nothing do with their merit as entertainment or storytelling devices but because you insist they are video games and therefore must have visuals. If I call them "interactive software" your argument has no merit, hence "pedantry".
Hey, I kind of remember this lady going all crazy for me, to the point that she started burning my flesh when I kissed her. (now just imagine how awkward would be to try to put that on a cutscene)
She was crazy but nothing developed from that. There was no final to that crazynes and i'm not saying something like sex but simply closure like BG2 romances had.
Vulcano's assistant said:There is no way yet to translate this description into images in modern games without wasting too much resources.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Cue6QXgrA
Besides, this is the last bastion of this type of game, many others are moving in the direction you want, with the Uncharted series being the best at it.
Yeah you can't show that on film or in any VA.
EternalGamer
Banned
Well, films are still called films when you watch them on blu-rays. Of course we can call them talkies too, or movies, just movies.
Well, now I wonder, how many other terms are there for video games?
That is just two different uses of medium. The first is medium as format the information takes. The second is medium as the physical means of distribution.
EternalGamer
Banned
Your argument against text adventures has nothing do with their merit as entertainment or storytelling devices but because you insist they are video games and therefore must have visuals. If I call them "interactive software" your argument has no merit, hence "pedantry".
But even if you call them "interactive software" that doesn't change the fact that it is a visual medium that in the case of a text adventure it is a visual medium being used to primary communicate typographic information. You don't find that a bit... odd. I could make a movie that has no picture and just music and call it a movie. Doesn't mean it's a great idea. I probably should just have made a music CD instead. I guess there is the odd case where you could justify it. I'm not saying there are no exceptions. I am just pointing out that the medium doesn't by nature lend itself to that sort of thing as well as it does visual and aural information.