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[jim-jam bongs]

maybe people will think this is mean but I'm inclining towards ignoring people who want this game to be more like a "AAA" title. it's just missing the point so totally and completely that I just don't see any point in trying to bridge the divide.

 

[mclem]

I think the same could be said of text adventures. I mean, they are called VIDEO games.

My response:

>HELP WOMAN
You begin to approach the old woman, but stop in your tracks. Her face is wrong. You look a little closer and shudder to yourself. The entire left side of her head is scarred with deep red lesions, twisting her oriental features into a hideous mask. She must have been in an accident or something. A strong gust of wind snatches the umbrella out of the old woman's hands and sweeps it into the branches of the tree. The woman circles the tree a few times, gazing helplessly upward. That umbrella obviously means a lot to her, for a wistful tear is running down her cheek. But nobody except you seems to notice her loss.
-- "Trinity" (Brian Moriarty)

Go and play Photopia. Now.

 

[mclem]

It's just weak and lifeless and even worse it's easily skipped. Using text, mountains and mountains of text to convey information in a video game is pretty dumb to start with and it doesn't matter whether you have a voice actor to read it or not. Getting the majority of your information through text is something that's just insanely primitive to my way of thinking and completely lacking in any of the artistry of visual and auditory communication that we have seen to be possible.

Large quantities of text are, however, *significantly* faster for a user to comprehend rather than a voiceover or video conveying the same information. Moreso if you want to page back and look up one piece of information from the middle of it, when with VO and video you'd have to wait for it to reach the relevant point.

 

[Lancehead]

The problem with just sticking to visual and auditory communication is that there are many other types of information that cannot be communicated through those means. How does one communicate how I feel about a person through visuals? It needs to be put into words. Of course you can have all those words voiced by someone, but that's no better than using text. In fact text has some advantages over voice acting from resource and end user experience perspectives.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I know that I'm an arrogant fuckwad but I must confess that I find this "text is a crutch" attitude extraordinarily frightening. have we really fallen so far as a species?

The problem with just sticking to visual and auditory communication is that there are many other types of information that cannot be communicated through those means. How does one communicate how I feel about a person through visuals? It needs to be put into words. Of course you can have all those words voiced by someone, but that's no better than using text. In fact text has some advantages over voice acting from resource and end user experience perspectives.

yes, exactly.

 

[duckroll]

I know that I'm an arrogant fuckwad but I must confess that I find this "text is a crutch" attitude extraordinarily frightening. have we really fallen so far as a species?

No, but the connectivity of the internet has simply made it far easier for us to actually encounter such opinions. I'm sure such opinions always existed in one form or other, but were generally shared by people who we would never actually want to interact with in real life!

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, but the connectivity of the internet has simply made it far easier for us to actually encounter such opinions. I'm sure such opinions always existed in one form or other, but were generally shared by people who we would never actually want to interact with in real life!

lol

that's surprisingly comforting, thanks duckie.

 

[Lusankya]

lol

that's surprisingly comforting, thanks duckie.

The biggest advantage of the internet: everyone can voice his/her opinion
The biggest disadvantage of the internet: everyone can voice his/her opinion

 

[Glass Rebel]

No, but the connectivity of the internet has simply made it far easier for us to actually encounter such opinions. I'm sure such opinions always existed in one form or other, but were generally shared by people who we would never actually want to interact with in real life!

ouch...

 

[zkylon]

AAA is for posers. AAAA is where it at.

 

[dude]

But what if those bonuses make sense from a roleplaying perspective? I'm not talking about their implications in combat or such, but if a "bonus" changes the character. KotOR II is a good example. You can "teach" some of your companions to make them stronger.

I have no problem with dialogues hanging characters, I'm all for it! In BG2, you could change some character's alignment and such. But when it comes to combat abilities... I'm just against it, I don't see the benefit and it's going to do much more harm than good. These games are hard, man, people will be tempted to take any advantage they can, if that advantage means meta-gaming to get some easy bonuses out of the party?
If they really have a great idea of how to incorporate some sort of bonus to the character and they think they can pull it off so that people wouldn't take advantage of it (maybe it also cause some sort of a negative as well?) Then fine. But I'm against incorporating this as a mechanic in the game like in MoB for example.

 

[Joseph Merrick]

"Big Picture" support isn't directly Steam-related. Just make sure the game is playable on a TV without having to resort to extremely low resolutions. There's not really any reason to assume people with the Steam version will be more likely to want to play on their TV than someone with a DRM-free version.

big picture support? :-DD that just sounds like a hilarious way to put 'dumbed down for console' or similar. dumbed down for steam console. I thought that's what avellone wanted to avoid with this game. he-he.

 

[TrutaS]

The problem of CG and Voice-acting is that both will undoubtely lead to less content. Less quests, less worlds, less characters, narrower story line, more scripting. All of these things are exactly the reason why people are paying so much to avoid current-gen supposed standards. Now bring great stories and great scenarios and don't worry so much about action-movie production values - publishers are giving us those already.

Edit: grammar-check

 

[OTIX]

Was surprised that I hadn't heard anything about this until now but I guess it started on friday so it hasn't been reported anywhere yet. This thing could go absolutely crazy once people find out about it. In for $80 at the moment but I'm worried I might kick it up further.

Also I'd like to sign up for Team no-VA please. I prefer to read at my own pace and the acting is always perfect in my head.

 

[spindoctor]

Personally I find the stretch goals fairly disappointing. That they've repeated the same thing (more classes, races, companions) 3 times tells me that they really did not put a lot of thought into it. Maybe they got rushed into it because they were not expecting to get funded in a day, but they should have planned this better.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

Personally I find the stretch goals fairly disappointing. That they've repeated the same thing (more classes, races, companions) 3 times tells me that they really did not put a lot of thought into it. Maybe they got rushed into it because they were not expecting to get funded in a day, but they should have planned this better.

It's not very exciting, true, but in an old-school RPG of this type, what would you want other than what they're offering? I.e. more writing, locations, plots, characters and class variations?

Edit: No, wait, I thought of something: Pazaak.

 

[Zaptruder]

You know what I'd be down for?

An end-game rogue-like tower as a stretch goal.

If combat is fun, and it should always be fun, then the idea of having a multi-level perhaps randomly generated combat fest for loot and challenge should be a standard industry trope.

And it's not. And that makes me cry on the inside.

 

[HoosTrax]

You know what I'd be down for?

An end-game rogue-like tower as a stretch goal.

If combat is fun, and it should always be fun, then the idea of having a multi-level perhaps randomly generated combat fest for loot and challenge should be a standard industry trope.

And it's not. And that makes me cry on the inside.

I've never seen a randomly generated dungeon that's as interesting, in terms of puzzles and other things to discover, as Watcher's Keep. You just keep seeing the same set piece building blocks over and over again.

 

[sueil]

The project will probably end up somewhere between 3-3.5m so there is plenty of room left for stretch goals. Basing those numbers on past large gaming kickstarters. Hopefully the future ones will be better. I will be more than happy if we just get the base game. The genre has been so starved that getting any game would be nice.

 

[Lancehead]

You know what I'd be down for?

An end-game rogue-like tower as a stretch goal.

If combat is fun, and it should always be fun, then the idea of having a multi-level perhaps randomly generated combat fest for loot and challenge should be a standard industry trope.

And it's not. And that makes me cry on the inside.

Surely you realise you're asking for a separate game here.

 

[Shake Appeal]

The problem of CG and Voice-acting is that both will undoubtely lead to less content.

Yep. And I'm assuming (hoping?) that part of the brief for this project is that Obsidian aren't beholden to publishers demanding lots of the former at the expense of the latter.

 

[duckroll]

You know what I'd be down for?

An end-game rogue-like tower as a stretch goal.

If combat is fun, and it should always be fun, then the idea of having a multi-level perhaps randomly generated combat fest for loot and challenge should be a standard industry trope.

And it's not. And that makes me cry on the inside.

That sounds like something that would be better as a fan-made mod imo. Obsidian doesn't need to waste their talents on something like that, especially since imo, loot, randomization and dungeon crawling isn't really their strongest suite. We all know how Dungeon Siege 3 turned out...

 

[Corto]

Personally I find the stretch goals fairly disappointing. That they've repeated the same thing (more classes, races, companions) 3 times tells me that they really did not put a lot of thought into it. Maybe they got rushed into it because they were not expecting to get funded in a day, but they should have planned this better.

That's what was expected though. More content, more characters, more stories, more items, Mac and Linux ports, new explorable regions on the map, a in-game house. I think they are being very deliberate with their stretch goals in that they are catering to their audience. And they are still holding something to the ridiculous pledge tiers. The soundtrack I'm sure will be one of those reserved for the final stretch.

 

[Zaptruder]

I've never seen a randomly generated dungeon that's as interesting, in terms of puzzles and other things to discover, as Watcher's Keep. You just keep seeing the same set piece building blocks over and over again.

I said perhaps. I was more thinking - each level is hand made and a challenge area unto itself - with randomly spawning enemies that get tougher and tougher the higher you go.

Surely you realise you're asking for a separate game here.

No. Why would it have to be a seperate game?

That sounds like something that would be better as a fan-made mod imo. Obsidian doesn't need to waste their talents on something like that, especially since imo, loot, randomization and dungeon crawling isn't really their strongest suite. We all know how Dungeon Siege 3 turned out...

I don't think I've ever seen one of these towers done as a fan made mod in this style of game sadly. Probably haven't looked hard enough for it though.

 

[Lancehead]

No. Why would it have to be a seperate game?

Because this is not a loot focused game (by all indications). It's like Planescape Torment Vs Diablo. Sure you can add such a mode in but it'd basically be a different game.

 

[Woo-Fu]

No. Why would it have to be a seperate game?

Why was Legend of Grimrock a separate game?

 

[HoosTrax]

Because this is not a loot focused game (by all indications). It's like Planescape Torment Vs Diablo. Sure you can add such a mode in but it'd basically be a different game.

PS:T was not a gear dependent game (I'm sure you could have completed the game with a naked character), but what gear there was in the game had personality and backstory, especially the tattoos.

I like seeing gear like that (also: Lilarcor), versus Outrageous Sundering Greatmaul of Storms +11.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You know what I'd be down for?

An end-game rogue-like tower as a stretch goal.

If combat is fun, and it should always be fun, then the idea of having a multi-level perhaps randomly generated combat fest for loot and challenge should be a standard industry trope.

And it's not. And that makes me cry on the inside.

I'm with you man. Forget all this touchy feely stuff like new companions of different races and ports for soft boy PCs. What we need is a stretch goal to add an optional multi level dungeon with really challenging encounters and puzzles.

 

[carbonbased]

time to finally play through icewind dale in tribute!

 

[Xater]

If the start of this is any indication I think all the stretch goals are very doable.

 

[Corto]

And they still have the obligatory media round with interviews with key members of the team to keep the heat on the pan. And Sawyer will throw another vocal performance as a stretch goal to 3 millions. That will do it.

 

[EatChildren]

Milestone goals are pretty meh. I mean, they're not bad, but they're basically say "we'll make more game with more money!". Well duhhh. The milestones still rely on the "Help Obsidian make a video game" hook, which I don't think will work in the long run.

People like myself who already want what they're offering will, mostly likely, have donated by now, or planned to donate sometime in the near future. Sustaining funds requires convincing people who on the fence, or disinterested, that this game will be worth it. Some insight into the world they're planning to create, story hook, concept art, themes we can look forward to exploring, and such would go a long way.

 

[red13th]

Threw 20 bucks in, those kickstarters are dangerous stuff but I'm managing to restrain myself.

 

[Zaptruder]

Why was Legend of Grimrock a separate game?

I thought it was a shame that they didn't build a little more story into Grimrock myself.

Because this is not a loot focused game (by all indications). It's like Planescape Torment Vs Diablo. Sure you can add such a mode in but it'd basically be a different game.

It doesn't have to be as full on as Diablo - there has always been loot based and challenge based incentives in these sorts of games.

Is it really that out of line to ask for an area that focuses on this as a method of providing better play value?

People, always with the naysaying, never with the - hey, that's a good idea, but these are the limitations, and this is how it could work even better!

I'm with you man. Forget all this touchy feely stuff like new companions of different races and ports for soft boy PCs. What we need is a stretch goal to add an optional multi level dungeon with really challenging encounters and puzzles.

Yes. Thank you!

 

[duckroll]

It doesn't have to be as full on as Diablo - there has always been loot based and challenge based incentives in these sorts of games.

Is it really that out of line to ask for an area that focuses on this as a method of providing better play value?

People, always with the naysaying, never with the - hey, that's a good idea, but these are the limitations, and this is how it could work even better!

So you're looking for something like a "lost ruins" sort of area, on an island or something, which the player party can explore after finding a map or meeting a dying treasure hunter shipwrecked on a coast or something? Exploring an area with no connections to the main story or factions, but contains extremely hard challenges and unique puzzles/enemies and tons of great high end gear along the way, while revealing more about a forgotten part of the world's history and mythology as you play through it?

Sounds like expansion material.

 

[Lancehead]

It doesn't have to be as full on as Diablo - there has always been loot based and challenge based incentives in these sorts of games.

Is it really that out of line to ask for an area that focuses on this as a method of providing better play value?

People, always with the naysaying, never with the - hey, that's a good idea, but these are the limitations, and this is how it could work even better!

I don't think it's a good idea as a stretch goal to begin with. If you want such a mode then it's better to actually change the design in the main game itself to suit that mode or just make it a separate game in the same world.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

But then you are basically talking about an interactive or choose your own adventure novel. Not a videogame. I realize there is obviously a blurring of lines there in the origin of RPG genre, though.

I also realize we aren't going to come to agreement because a lot of people want a game that is exactly like the old games they played when they were younger and anything that deviates from that is apocryphal.


I just simply don't agree on the idea of the text heavy philosophy of game design. When I play a lot of older CRPG games and I read that dialog, I often find myself thinking that if someone had to read this shit out loud, then an actor might look up at the producer and give a look like "Are you serious?" that would serve the editing process well. Or that if they actually had to reign themselves in due to budget or time constraints, we would get less badly written drafty prose and lore descriptions that are far more convoluted than they need be and more sharp, vivid prose in its place. Putting that kind of constraint upon writers is a good thing, in my opinion. Somewhere there may very well be mad visionary geniuses who could write reams of text and whose artistic brilliance would be heavily compromised by such a process, but I'm not convinced those people are writing scripts for CRPGs. But again, as I said from the start, I am more concerned with quality than quantity.

You've clearly never played a Metal Gear game before.

 

[EternalGamer]

I know that I'm an arrogant fuckwad but I must confess that I find this "text is a crutch" attitude extraordinarily frightening. have we really fallen so far as a species?



yes, exactly.

Nobody said all written text on the entire planet should be eliminated. I think the only arguments that were ever presented were in favor of minimizing/eliminating text based environmental descriptions and text only dialog in a medium whose primary characteristics are visual and aural by nature. Just because I dont want to read giant blocks of text on my monitor, this does not mean I hate the written word or think it has no place in modern society. I am a Renaissance Liiterature professor. I make my living reading, interpreting amd discussing written texts. I just think videogames are a bad medium wherein to focus heavily on written text.

As to the point of eliminating ALL text, I again, I dont think anybody ever even suggested that in this thread. Obviousy interfaces and item descriptions etc. still need that "written text as crutch," at least for now.

As a side note, though, I would love to see a developer try to the experiment of designing an RPG that strives to totally get rid of text in the same vein as Dead Space getting rid of UI and replacing it with integrated in game elements. It could be very cool to see how they got around design problems and rejiggered old tropes and mechanics to avoid ever using text. Please note that I am not suggesting that Obsidian do this, I just think it would be cool to see.

 

[PumpkinPie]

Go and play Photopia. Now.

Is this freeware? Does it work on modern computers?

 

[EternalGamer]

You've clearly never played a Metal Gear game before.

Hey, I never said it was a completely fool proof method. Although I would argue that series has similar problems related to not fully taking advantage of the medium and at times working against it.

 

[Llyranor]

Honestly, if Obsidian does something dumb like announce full VA or console versions, I'll drop my pledge to the bare minimum. I'm not funding that crap. At least live orchestra, I can get behind.

When was the last time full VA was announced as a major selling point for a RPG? Oh that's right, TOR.

 

[EternalGamer]

It's just weak and lifeless and even worse it's easily skipped. Using text, mountains and mountains of text to convey information in a video game is pretty dumb to start with and it doesn't matter whether you have a voice actor to read it or not. Getting the majority of your information through text is something that's just insanely primitive to my way of thinking and completely lacking in any of the artistry of visual and auditory communication that we have seen to be possible.

I mean... what's more effective? A piece of text that says "oh no, there are too many guards at the castle we will need to take the sewers if we want to get there" or seeing a massive fortification of the castle and all the guards? or better yet experiencing trying to get past or through the mass of guards and being forced to go into the sewers? I know where my money is.

The point is text is a crutch.

Well said. I obviously agree. I certainly recognize that just taking those huge blocks of text and having someone read them to you doesn't really address the problem. That, infact, is the first step to Metal Gear-esque 20 minute cutscenes. I was merely saying that dialog makes more sense to be spoken.

But writers in this industry by and large could use some serious editors that force them to write more in a more concise manner. I often give my students excercises where they have to take passages composed of multiple sentences of around 30-40 words and force them to find a way to communicate the same ideas in less than half.

 

[Zaptruder]

So you're looking for something like a "lost ruins" sort of area, on an island or something, which the player party can explore after finding a map or meeting a dying treasure hunter shipwrecked on a coast or something? Exploring an area with no connections to the main story or factions, but contains extremely hard challenges and unique puzzles/enemies and tons of great high end gear along the way, while revealing more about a forgotten part of the world's history and mythology as you play through it?

Sounds like expansion material.

Stretch Goals are the new expansions!

 

[Durante]

Honestly, if Obsidian does something dumb like announce full VA or console versions, I'll drop my pledge to the bare minimum. I'm not funding that crap. At least live orchestra, I can get behind.

When was the last time full VA was announced as a major selling point for a RPG? Oh that's right, TOR.

I agree, though I probably wouldn't drop my pledge since I'm weak like that.

But I'm sure Obsidian knows what their major backers want. Stretch goal NWN2 UI!

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Well said. I obviously agree. I certainly recognize that just taking those huge blocks of text and having someone read them to you doesn't really address the problem. Tha, infact, is the first step to Metal Gear-esque 20 minute cutscenes. I was merely saying that dialog makes more sense to be spoken.

But writers in this industry by and large could use some serious editors that force them to write more in a more concise manner. I often give my students excercises wherethey have to take passages of multiple sentences of around 30-40 words and force them to find a way to communicate the same ideas in less than half.

Even though I disagree that the blocks of text are that big (usually less than 5 sentences in between your answers); I agree that it isn't ridiculous to compare a 10 minute cutscene on MGS2 to a 10 minute conversation on Planescape: Torment (although you usually control the course of the later). But the issue at had remains, making the conversation is cheap, and making the cutscene (one that takes advantage of the medium) costs a lot of money because you can't just make up assets (like tattoos that move around the body forming patterns) from the air.

 

[Perkel]

I agree, though I probably wouldn't drop my pledge since I'm weak like that.

But I'm sure Obsidian knows what their major backers want. Stretch goal NWN2 UI!

 

[EternalGamer]

I agree, though I probably wouldn't drop my pledge since I'm weak like that.

But I'm sure Obsidian knows what their major backers want. Stretch goal NWN2 UI!

My reponse is that it doesnt have to be listed a major selling point because it is already largely considered a given for big titles and something people simply dont expect from smaller ones. Therefore there is no reason to "advertise" it.

As a side note, I think Dark Souls has some of the best narrative in modern gaming precisely because it is sharp and minimalistic. All of it is voiced and characters almost never get caught in the videogame trap of delivering pages and pages of expository lore. Even the way it handles branching narrative choice is great because it is so ambigious and it is base on your actions rather than selecting a text bubble. Obviously that game series has a very different tone than what Obsidian would probably be aiming for. I am just bringing it up as an RPG that I think does an excellent job playing to the strengths of the medium.

 

[Lancehead]

Well said. I obviously agree. I certainly recognize that just taking those huge blocks of text and having someone read them to you doesn't really address the problem. That, infact, is the first step to Metal Gear-esque 20 minute cutscenes. I was merely saying that dialog makes more sense to be spoken.

The issue really isn't about dialogue; there are many things other than dialogue that need words to be expressed, and can't be done visually.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/dome84/oh_you.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

NWN2's UI is pretty good.

 

[Kurtofan]

It really slowed down hasn't it?

 

[EternalGamer]

The issue really isn't about dialogue; there are many things other than dialogue that need words to be expressed, and can't be done visually.

I find that I function in daily life and understand things pretty well and I rarely have to have a text description bubble pop up in front of me. I can even interpret other people's emotions and experience and have my own complex inner emotions with nary an omnsicient narrator in sight. Other than reading the occasional sign on the highway or restaraunt menu, I dont need written texts to function and I certainly don't need it to have a rich, emotional experience.