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[michaelius]

It's just weak and lifeless and even worse it's easily skipped. Using text, mountains and mountains of text to convey information in a video game is pretty dumb to start with and it doesn't matter whether you have a voice actor to read it or not. Getting the majority of your information through text is something that's just insanely primitive to my way of thinking and completely lacking in any of the artistry of visual and auditory communication that we have seen to be possible.

I mean... what's more effective? A piece of text that says "oh no, there are too many guards at the castle we will need to take the sewers if we want to get there" or seeing a massive fortification of the castle and all the guards? or better yet experiencing trying to get past or through the mass of guards and being forced to go into the sewers? I know where my money is.

The point is text is a crutch.

Don't worry dude. I'm sure next Call of Duty will have no need to read any of that evil text and will convey everything with great visuals and explosions.

So i suggest searching for a thread on that and leaving this one for those of us who like rpg

 

[squidyj]

now I want cupcakes. Definitely more effective than a paragraph describing cupcakes.

Don't worry dude. I'm sure next Call of Duty will have no need to read any of that evil text and will convey everything with great visuals and explosions.

So i suggest searching for a thread on that and leaving this one for those of us who like rpg

Oh I'm sorry, did I step on your text adventure fetish? I'm not suggesting call of duty is the model to achieve, mr snarky. Call of Duty pares down all available information rather than using it in an effective format to communicate anything but you seem to be incapable of seeing the difference between that and visuals used well to convey information which isn't surprising because it's fucking impossible to find in video-games, probably because we have people like you who for some insane reason would PREFER a text bubble popping up in the middle of the damn screen all the time.

 

[Zeliard]

It's just weak and lifeless and even worse it's easily skipped. Using text, mountains and mountains of text to convey information in a video game is pretty dumb to start with and it doesn't matter whether you have a voice actor to read it or not. Getting the majority of your information through text is something that's just insanely primitive to my way of thinking and completely lacking in any of the artistry of visual and auditory communication that we have seen to be possible.

The two concepts are hardly mutually exclusive. You can have both. You can have your cupcake and eat it too.

Do you think Planescape: Torment is simply mountains of text supplementing nothing? It contains some of the most evocative and memorable imagery and sound - ambient, music, and voice acting - that you'll find in a game, along with vivid prose and distinctive slang that help to immerse the player in by playing on their imagination and ultimately giving it a more personal flavor.

All of these elements synergize to create the game's effect on the player.

 

[Acidote]

I've emailed them about language localization because I haven't read anything about it yet. I'll post their answer when I have it.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The other stuff going on in this thread is pretty irrelevant, jim-jam touched on the important issue at hand. Cupcakes are fuckin' garbage.

you and me against the world brother. they can take our lives, but they'll never take our insulin.

 

[squidyj]

The two concepts are hardly mutually exclusive. You can have both. You can have your cupcake and eat it too.

Do you think Planescape: Torment is simply mountains of text supplementing nothing? It contains some of the most evocative and memorable imagery and sound - ambient, music, and voice acting - that you'll find in a game, along with vivid prose and distinctive slang that help to immerse the player in by playing on their imagination and ultimately giving it a more personal flavor.

All of these elements synergize to create the game's effect on the player.

I think that the majority of what was done in text, in titles like planescape torment could be more effectively communicated with visuals and audio. I'm not arguing that it's not a necessary crutch at times for reasons of budget and technical limitation, I think that that game made good use of it's available resources at the time it was made but I think that games today should be striving to do more, more subtly and more visually because exposition and description text rarely if ever present information as well as visuals.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

I would like it on the record that some people do actually enjoy reading, and don't view, say, the novel as simply a crappy, old-fashioned way of making films. If you like fully voiced games with fancy graphics and cut-scenes, then the current publisher model is serving your needs quite well. I think it's entirely legitimate, and indeed more or less the point of kickstarting projects like this, to want to see games made that don't make the same set of tradeoffs as those published under the standard model.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

I think that the majority of what was done in text, in titles like planescape torment could be more effectively communicated with visuals and audio. I'm not arguing that it's not a necessary crutch at times for reasons of budget and technical limitation, I think that that game made good use of it's available resources at the time it was made but I think that games today should be striving to do more, more subtly and more visually because exposition and description text rarely if ever present information as well as visuals.

Honestly, statements like this just make you sound like a functional illiterate. Have you never read a great novel?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

lols reading is for suckers, hemingway only used a typewriter because the steadycam wasn't invented.

 

[sueil]

Gonna weigh in here and say that cupcakes are pretty garbage. Far too sweet to be enjoyable.

So since the game has guns and bombs in it, anyone else really hoping a chemist class? It would be like alchemy in the Witcher games only with nitroglycerin. Build bombs, set bomb traps, use chemical weapons on your enemies. It is time the common man had the ability to fight back against elitist wizards. Try casting Time Stop when I throw acid in your face.

 

[Radogol]

So since the game has guns and bombs in it...

The concept art in the video is from another project, it seems.

 

[squidyj]

Honestly, statements like this just make you sound like a functional illiterate. Have you never read a great novel?

Yeah, I have, I'm not reading a novel when I play a video game though. But thanks for continuing the personal attacks, that seem to have become a theme in this thread. Anyways the vast majority of enjoyment of reading a novel like, say, Ham on Rye, or A Farewell to Arms, is enjoying the prose style and hopefully the unique viewpoint of the author. Without literally turning the game into a novel I don't think you can capture that enjoyment by bits and pieces, by dialogue and exposition. Text in video-games seems to me to be far more functionally oriented than prose in a novel.

lols reading is for suckers, hemingway only used a typewriter because the steadycam wasn't invented.

Lol, I like how we both went to Hemingway.

 

[hemtae]

Wait. Some people in this thread hates cupcakes? I hope they know that their mere presence has lowered the quality of this game and thread.

 

[sueil]

The concept art in the video is from another project, it seems.

J E Sawyer mentioned bombs being in game in the SA thread. Part of the backstory of Godhammer Citadel.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

hemingway is the obvious choice for discussing games, being a chauvinist and mild misogynist

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

J E Sawyer mentioned bombs being in game in the SA thread. Part of the backstory of Godhammer Citadel.

Wait, did they post details about the game's world?

 

[Basileus777]

Cupcakes are great as long as they don't have sprinkles. Sprinkles are disgusting.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I think that the majority of what was done in text, in titles like planescape torment could be more effectively communicated with visuals and audio.

One of the great things about Planescape is it describes in words experience and even metaphysical things like dimensions that we literally cannot picture, or have "visualized" for us. There is no way to effectively depict the conversation you have with 'O' in the Smoldering Corpse bar with sprites or even today's glorious 3D rendering even half as well as it is described.

One of the game's central themes is memory, and one thing the written word excels at, above all other media, is dealing with interior states like remembrance.

 

[sueil]

Wait, did they post details about the game's world?

He said sorry there wasn't more details they weren't expecting this kind of response. He mentioned that one little thing about godhammer citadel and how it wasn't a god it was maybe a saint and it wasnt a hammer it was a bomb. He plans on making a big blog post today with world details. Reading his comments they never expected things to go this well. He honestly thought they had a 50/50 chance of getting to 1.1 million by the end of the Kickstarter. So that is one reason why there isn't a lot of details released yet, they thought they would have a lot more time.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I totally expect them to reach all the stretch goals by the end of next week.

 

[sueil]

"I can't talk a lot about the details of the world yet, but let me explain this one a little more. It's a bit of a misnomer. It wasn't a god who was killed, but a (possibly?) possessed saint. And the saint wasn't "hammered". He was killed with a bomb. Like... yeah, a really big bomb.

Okay, that's all until I have time to do a proper update."

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=407583735

 

[michaelius]

Yeah, I have, I'm not reading a novel when I play a video game though. But thanks for continuing the personal attacks, that seem to have become a theme in this thread. Anyways the vast majority of enjoyment of reading a novel like, say, Ham on Rye, or A Farewell to Arms, is enjoying the prose style and hopefully the unique viewpoint of the author. Without literally turning the game into a novel I don't think you can capture that enjoyment by bits and pieces, by dialogue and exposition. Text in video-games seems to me to be far more functionally oriented than prose in a novel.

When you read a novel you read it because it fuels your imagination to recreating what is happening in your head.

 

[Lancehead]

I think that the majority of what was done in text, in titles like planescape torment could be more effectively communicated with visuals and audio.

No, you simply can't a lot of the stuff, even if you have unlimited resources.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

Yeah, I have, I'm not reading a novel when I play a video game though. But thanks for continuing the personal attacks, that seem to have become a theme in this thread. Anyways the vast majority of enjoyment of reading a novel like, say, Ham on Rye, or A Farewell to Arms, is enjoying the prose style and hopefully the unique viewpoint of the author. Without literally turning the game into a novel I don't think you can capture that enjoyment by bits and pieces, by dialogue and exposition. Text in video-games seems to me to be far more functionally oriented than prose in a novel.

I don't see any basis for the distinction you're drawing between prose in a novel and in a game. There's a lot of games out there. Some are written well, and many more are written poorly, but they are remarkably varied. You may not believe that prose in games can provide the same enjoyment as prose in a novel, but I do, because I have personally experienced it.

 

[ChosenPredator]

it's funny whenever i watch someone else play a RPG they always rapidly go through the text without reading and I wonder how the hell they even enjoy the games sometime and it's their first play through...I like reading everything it just relaxes me but I have gotten so used to voice acting lately lol

 

[jim-jam bongs]

"I can't talk a lot about the details of the world yet, but let me explain this one a little more. It's a bit of a misnomer. It wasn't a god who was killed, but a (possibly?) possessed saint. And the saint wasn't "hammered". He was killed with a bomb. Like... yeah, a really big bomb.

Okay, that's all until I have time to do a proper update."

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=407583735

lol

I love how this comes across as an attempt to elucidate but actually just makes things more confusing and intriguing.

 

[Dresden]

Yeah, I have, I'm not reading a novel when I play a video game though. But thanks for continuing the personal attacks, that seem to have become a theme in this thread. Anyways the vast majority of enjoyment of reading a novel like, say, Ham on Rye, or A Farewell to Arms, is enjoying the prose style and hopefully the unique viewpoint of the author. Without literally turning the game into a novel I don't think you can capture that enjoyment by bits and pieces, by dialogue and exposition. Text in video-games seems to me to be far more functionally oriented than prose in a novel.

words are words

 

[dude]

Personally, I just wish they get rid of one of the horrible recent trends in RPGS - Loyalty meters. I mean, what's the point of having interesting characters and dialogues that can lead to interesting outcome if the player is just going to reload the game the minute it tells him Bob likes him less by "6"?

And don't even get me started on that Dragon Age gift bullshit.

 

[Lancehead]

Personally, I just wish they get rid of one of the horrible recent trends in RPGS - Loyalty meters. I mean, what's the point of having interesting characters and dialogues that can lead to interesting outcome if the player is just going to reload the game the minute it tells him Bob likes him less by "6"?

And don't even get me started on that Dragon Age gift bullshit.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with "meters". They represent how characters change over the course of the game based on how the PC acts. But yes, it's better not to actually show numbers changing.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

a while ago I had an idea for an RPG called "Best Friend". for anyone familiar with my favourite games, yes, it was inspired by Dogmeat.

basically it's an RPG where the player is always accompanied by a dog which they must use to do... pretty much everything. how the player chooses to use the dog will change the dog's personality and demeanour towards them; for example, if you keep putting the dog in dangerous situations it will become more aggressive but trust the player less and be less likely to take direct orders. if you always treat your dog with love it will be less effective in combat but more likely to do what you tell it to do.

the thing which was really important to me is how the dog communicates with the player. there would never be any stats like "dog love" or anything moronic like that, the dog would behave differently in a very nuanced way in order to communicate ideas. this would range from refusing to come when called if the player had been mistreating it, to sounds and looks directed at the player character to indicate moods and feelings about the things the player was asking it to do.

it never got out of spit-balling phase, but I think there are a lot of interesting ideas there which I'd like to do something with at some stage. also, I love dogs.

 

[patapuf]

Personally, I just wish they get rid of one of the horrible recent trends in RPGS - Loyalty meters. I mean, what's the point of having interesting characters and dialogues that can lead to interesting outcome if the player is just going to reload the game the minute it tells him Bob likes him less by "6"?

And don't even get me started on that Dragon Age gift bullshit.

Meters can be fun, In New vegas or alpha protocol there were "meters" for your relationship between factions or person.

However most of it was hidden. Which is the way to go imo.

And yeah, gifting like in dragon age is dumb.

 

[dude]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with "meters". They represent how characters change over the course of the game based on how the PC acts. But yes, it's better not to actually show numbers changing.

I actually posted a thread about it on the Obsidian forum, and I'm going to quote it so that you too shall understand my pain.

Alright, I don't know how many people this bothers besides me, but it really stood out in MoB for me (Which is still the best RPG of the last 10 years). It's actually getting quite widespread in RPGs today and it must stop.
I'm talking about this situation - After I'm talking with an NPC, the game will inform me he now likes me more by 4 arbitrary points, and sometimes when I have enough "he-likes-me" points I will get a bonus. Now, at first this might not seem so bad, it incentives the player to talk to their party and care about them. But a second look will reveal where this fails - When a player is informed that a character now likes him less by "6", he will not just take it, he'll reload the game and just say what he know she wants to hear - Because there's a clearly better outcome that he learns of immediately after the fact. Basically, the problem with this sort of system is that it incentives the player to have all the characters like him, like some sort of minigame. But sometimes, it's better when a character doesn't like the player - it create much more memorable interactions an banters when you're not sure what everyone thinks of you or what makes them like you or hate you. This also ruins any immersion those interactions bring. The unpredictable nature of these banters in older games is part of what makes them so immersing and engaging, it was like you were really interacting with those characters and that made you care for them.

And that's not to mention that a week after launch there will be a walk-through explaining in details what to say and when the get the most out of each dialogue. It's the most disgusting form of min-maxing I've ever encountered, it's min-maxing relationships.

 

[Grayman]

on that note i like how alpha protocol had bonuses for positive and negative treatment. removing the meters and just hinting the effect in dialog may be best.

 

[MesserWolf]

Am I the only one whi dislikes stretch goals that just amount to "more and bigger." i have mre games than frankly I will probably be able to play in my lifetime. I have no need fr 100+ hours of content. I'd much rather have that money go to higher QUALITY content.

For example:

- voice acting
- branching narratives
-orchestral soundtract
-co-op
-steamworks mod support
-CG cutscenes
-big screen support mode

Rather than continually adding more content, I'd rather them just enchance the content they already have planned.p with features such as these.

I kinda agree with you.

It would bring a touch of modernity without loosing the old school core.

However I don't know about the feasability .

 

[Lancehead]

I actually posted a thread about it on the Obsidian forum, and I'm going to quote it so that you too shall understand my pain.



And that's not to mention that a week after launch there will be a walk-through explaining in details what to say and when the get the most out of each dialogue. It's the most disgusting form of min-maxing I've ever encountered, it's min-maxing relationships.

That's mainly a problem with the feedback. So you say a nice thing, you get feedback that the companion liked it, and the game opens up new dialogue options to say more nice things, and more feedback to more dialogue options etc. So it creates a feedback loop. You're basically saying nice things to say more nice things.

Personally I like the KotOR II system.

 

[duckroll]

Am I the only one whi dislikes stretch goals that just amount to "more and bigger." i have mre games than frankly I will probably be able to play in my lifetime. I have no need fr 100+ hours of content. I'd much rather have that money go to higher QUALITY content.

For example:

- voice acting
- branching narratives
-orchestral soundtract
-co-op
-steamworks mod support
-CG cutscenes
-big screen support mode

Rather than continually adding more content, I'd rather them just enchance the content they already have planned.p with features such as these.

I think it depends on the sort of project. In the case of this particular one, I would reckon that the majority of people funding it, especially at the highest tiers, would actually NOT want to see money wasted on the following:

- voice acting
- co-op
- CG cutscenes

They are completely meaningless and a waste of money.

As for:

- branching narratives
- orchestral soundtrack

I'm not sure why these are listed at all because they they sound like what people already expect from the game. This is a classic Obsidian game. That means the game is filled with branching scenarios and player-choice. It's everywhere. If you want MORE of that to be a stretch goal, then guess what? That's what it is! More scenario = more branching.

Regarding Steam-specific features, bad news for you but they might be moving away from that direction. People want DRM-free instead, so Steam will probably end up being just one of the options, but I doubt they want to put too much time and effort into over-supporting a single distribution platform instead of making the best game they can.

 

[dragonelite]

Nice paypall support soon hope there will still be $20 pledges left by then.

 

[dude]

That's mainly a problem with the feedback. So you say a nice thing, you get feedback that the companion liked it, and the game opens up new dialogue options to say more nice things, and more feedback to more dialogue options etc. So it creates a feedback loop. You're basically saying nice things to say more nice things.

Personally I like the KotOR II system.

The problem is that the feedback is on some linear scale of better and worse, it is immediate, and it is measurable. All of these together make the dialogue unnatural and un-immersive.

 

[ChosenPredator]

a while ago I had an idea for an RPG called "Best Friend". for anyone familiar with my favourite games, yes, it was inspired by Dogmeat.

basically it's an RPG where the player is always accompanied by a dog which they must use to do... pretty much everything. how the player chooses to use the dog will change the dog's personality and demeanour towards them; for example, if you keep putting the dog in dangerous situations it will become more aggressive but trust the player less and be less likely to take direct orders. if you always treat your dog with love it will be less effective in combat but more likely to do what you tell it to do.

the thing which was really important to me is how the dog communicates with the player. there would never be any stats like "dog love" or anything moronic like that, the dog would behave differently in a very nuanced way in order to communicate ideas. this would range from refusing to come when called if the player had been mistreating it, to sounds and looks directed at the player character to indicate moods and feelings about the things the player was asking it to do.

it never got out of spit-balling phase, but I think there are a lot of interesting ideas there which I'd like to do something with at some stage. also, I love dogs.

get cracking and make an rpg version of this

 

[shintoki]

I think Mod Support should be just a given. Obsidian of all companies should understand how important mods are to their titles, well... Maybe Bethsada only understanding more. Heh.

Nor do I want to see them waste their time with stuff like Big Picture Mode before release. If they want to do it for Steam after release, fine. But on optional features and pointless to the quality of the game. No thank you.

 

[Shake Appeal]

The point is text is a crutch.

My brain is leaking out my ears. I would have posted a picture of my brain leaking out my ears, but my brain leaking out of my ears means I have to fall back on language as a crutch.

 

[Glass Rebel]

tbh I was kinda surprised that they only offered a Steam version at the beginning. Not that I'm gonna complain, since I use for 99% of my gaming anyway, but it didn't really fit into the "nature" of gaming kickstarters. A DRM-free version should get more people to jump on board, hopefully.

 

[duckroll]

The problem is that the feedback is on some linear scale of better and worse, it is immediate, and it is measurable. All of these together make the dialogue unnatural and un-immersive.

I kinda agree with this. Direct feedback on companion trust/respect also tends to encourage some players to constantly save/reload before conversations to get the "best" result. This in turn kinda ruins the experience a little, rather than just playing and learning about the consequences of how you have been reacting to your companions as it develops.

It's much more fun to try and "read" the reaction of a character after saying something, to get a feel of whether they're happy or unhappy with how you're acting, rather than selecting an option and seeing "TRUST +1" or "TRUST -3" on the screen.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Just woke up to see Mac Support has been announced

Take my money Obsidian!

 

[dude]

I kinda agree with this. Direct feedback on companion trust/respect also tends to encourage some players to constantly save/reload before conversations to get the "best" result. This in turn kinda ruins the experience a little, rather than just playing and learning about the consequences of how you have been reacting to your companions as it develops.

It's much more fun to try and "read" the reaction of a character after saying something, to get a feel of whether they're happy or unhappy with how you're acting, rather than selecting an option and seeing "TRUST +1" or "TRUST -3" on the screen.

Exactly. And if that "Trust" or "Respect" or "Loyalty" meters also results in combat bonuses like they did in DA and MoB? Well, then it's the worst because min-maxing your relationships becomes a strategy, and that's just downright disgusting. I'm supposed to care about these people, not treat them as tools to get a 100% in the game.

 

[chaosblade]

"Big Picture" support isn't directly Steam-related. Just make sure the game is playable on a TV without having to resort to extremely low resolutions. There's not really any reason to assume people with the Steam version will be more likely to want to play on their TV than someone with a DRM-free version.

 

[Joseph Merrick]

Anyone but Soule, unless he comes with a live orchestra.

5) Alexander Brandon (Mask of the Betrayer, Storm of Zehir). This guy is amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlDA4y7f22A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V1ZB1rWsS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC2VEGrHkqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn72ub3It0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhiY8gGaGoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRkm8EIk23s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkV4qnxzkQ

hehe, nailed it. need siren. I was going to reply to that other guy, but luckily I got to your post. would have been worth the effort! but this is easier.

 

[Lancehead]

Exactly. And if that "Trust" or "Respect" or "Loyalty" meters also results in combat bonuses like they did in DA and MoB? Well, then it's the worst because min-maxing your relationships becomes a strategy, and that's just downright disgusting. I'm supposed to care about these people, not treat them as tools to get a 100% in the game.

But what if those bonuses make sense from a roleplaying perspective? I'm not talking about their implications in combat or such, but if a "bonus" changes the character. KotOR II is a good example. You can "teach" some of your companions to make them stronger.

 

[Acidote]

Hey duckroll, you might want to edit the OP and add the stretch goals as there is a lot of people waiting for mac support to fund it.

 

[duckroll]

Hey duckroll, you might want to edit the OP and add the stretch goals as there is a lot of people waiting for mac support to fund it.

Roger.