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[patapuf]

My reponse is that it doesnt have to be listed a major selling point because it is already largely considered a given for big titles and something people simply dont expect from smaller ones. Therefore there is no reason to "advertise" it.

As a side note, I think Dark Souls has some of the best narrative in modern gaming precisely because it is sharp and minimalistic. All of it is voiced and characters almost never get caught in the videogame trap of delivering pages and pages of expository lore. Even the way it handles branching narrative choice is great because it is so ambigious and it is base on your actions rather than selecting a text bubble. Obviously that game series has a very different tone than what Obsidian would probably be aiming for. I am just bringing it up as an RPG that I think does an excellent job playing to the strengths of the medium.

you are fixated on dialogue. There's many thing planescape conveys through text that you couldn't convey through visuals or audio.

Just like you can't translate a book into a movie and convey exactly the same thing.

Choosing the right path instead of the left one is just as binary as a text bubble btw. Neither is more interactive or contains more depth. Just like making a choice when you have no information is no more meaningful than making a well informed choice. You just have a different approach.

 

[Durante]

I see no reason at all as to why text should be a less valid medium for computer games than video or audio.

 

[patapuf]

I find that I function in daily life and understand things pretty well and I rarely have to have a text description bubble pop up in front of me. I can even interpret other people's emotions and experience and have my own complex inner emotions with nary an omnsicient narrator in sight. Other than reading the occasional sign on the highway or restaraunt menu, I dont need written texts to function and I certainly don't need it to have a rich, emotional experience.

you will find out that a blind person can function without seeing anything. The point of a game isn't to replicate life, it's to give you tools to play around in.

Visuals are not superior than text for this. They are a different approach.

For manipulating a narrative text has a big advantage over audio and visuals: it's more flexible (which means you can do more complex manipulations with less effort) and you only need few talented people for it to work well.

Lastly: i very much doubt you can function well in todays world without reading. Or to put it diffrently: there is a significant advantage if you are able to read. Complex ideas do not translate well to pretty pictures.

 

[Syraxith]

Stretch goal NWN2 UI!

NWN2's camera also.

It really slowed down hasn't it?

It's pretty normal actually.

 

[Dennis]

I have no doubt that the writing will be good and that the current stretch goals will be met giving us lots of characters and races.

So i think that the next major stretch goal, like maybe 2.5 million, should be graphics.


2.5 million, we will have more artists and more assets making this as good looking a game as DA:O in isometric mode.

 

[Lancehead]

I find that I function in daily life and understand things pretty well and I rarely have to have a text description bubble pop up in front of me. I can even interpret other people's emotions and experience and have my own complex inner emotions with nary an omnsicient narrator in sight. Other than reading the occasional sign on the highway or restaraunt menu, I dont need written texts to function and I certainly don't need it to have a rich, emotional experience.

How are you able to interpret others' emotions? And how can you make the player interpret the emotions of the characters in a videogame?

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

I have no doubt that the writing will be good and that the current stretch goals will be met giving us lots of characters and races.

So i think that the next major stretch goal, like maybe 2.5 million, should be graphics.


2.5 million, we will have more artists and more assets making this as good looking a game like DA:O in isometric mode.

I one had I feel that they should to take a strong art direction and stick to it (I mean, I put 25 bucks on Banner saga for the Eyvind Earle backgrounds alone); however, I don't want different cultures in the game showing that their garments, houses, weapons, etc, were designed by the same group of people.

How are you able to interpret others' emotions? And how can you make the player interpret the emotions of the characters in a videogame?

Breaking Bad production values. 44 minute cutscenes is where is at.

 

[EternalGamer]

I see no reason at all as to why text should be a less valid medium for computer games than video or audio.

My reason is the exact same reason I dont think a film that is translating a book should just resort to putting large paragraphs of text on the screen. It is, as others have said, a crutch.

I can certainly see an argument that it can be a stylistic choice in some games where it functions as a sort of dumb show and characters are supposed to be marrionettes. I often think of the older Final Fantasy games this way. Double Fine also did a great job cultivating it in stackng. In those cases it feels inetgrated. But I dont think most games are trying to be dumb shows.

 

[epmode]

Man, just think how awesome Deionarra's sensory stone would be with full voice acting and a fully rendered cutscene!

 

[Bomber Bob]

Stretch goal: testing for bugs!

 

[EternalGamer]

How are you able to interpret others' emotions? And how can you make the player interpret the emotions of the characters in a videogame?

By showing rather than telling them; the first principle of all good writing. You have a visual stage and and a sound stage. Use those elements to convey and elicit the thoughts and emotions you want. Dont just pop up some pretty prose that basically amounts to an omniscient voice telling me "this character is sad" or "this character is frustrated."

 

[Emitan]

By showing rather than telling them; the first principle of all good writing. You have a visual stage and and a sound stage. Use those elements to convey and elicit the thoughts and emotions you want. Dont just pop up some pretty prose that basically amounts to an omniscient voice telling me "this character is sad" or "this character is frustrated."

This is not a problem with writing. This is a problem with poor writing. You know this. Why are you still arguing?

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Man, just think how awesome Deionarra's sensory stone would be with full voice acting and a fully rendered cutscene!

I imagine it having some jarring back and fort editing between you and flashbacks of your previous incarnation. Sort of like the ending of The Usual Suspects, but going on for five to seven minutes.

 

[spindoctor]

It's not very exciting, true, but in an old-school RPG of this type, what would you want other than what they're offering? I.e. more writing, locations, plots, characters and class variations?

Edit: No, wait, I thought of something: Pazaak.

I understand your point. I'm just saying... these are not the kind of stretch goals would push me over the edge to pledge for the kickstarter if I hadn't already done so. Like Mac and Linux support is cool and that will bring communities in. Mod tools would have been really good too. Even more content could have been presented better... Was it Shadowrun that promised a new, backer chosen city if they crossed one of their final stretch goals? And I believe they just made the cut which kept things exciting till the end. In this case, I mean... 8 companions instead of 6... big deal. That's not going to bring in new pledges. Maybe they're saving some really good stuff for later, who knows.

 

[EternalGamer]

This is not a problem with writing. This is a problem with poor writing. You know this. Why are you still arguing?

I already answered this both in the sentence before the one you bolded and in more detail the discussion of the biases of different media and the example from Henry V several pages back.

 

[Corto]

edit: sorry. Superfluous post here. Don't mind me.

 

[epmode]

This is such a ridiculous talking point.

It's possible to render most everything in Torment in a 3D engine + voice acting and it would be incredible. It would also cost far more to produce than any game in existence.

 

[patapuf]

My reason is the exact same reason I dont think a film that is translating a book should just resort to putting large paragraphs of text on the screen. It is, as others have said, a crutch.

I can certainly see an argument that it can be a stylistic choice in some games where it functions as a sort of dumb show and characters are supposed to be marrionettes. I often think of the older Final Fantasy games this way. Double Fine also did a great job cultivating it in stackng. In those cases it feels inetgrated. But I dont think most games are trying to be dumb shows.

I'm going to put it simply: which do you think is the more valid approach: Fifa football manager or the regular FIFA games.

Or do you feel mass effect is less of a dumb show than planescape? because the dialogue is voiced?

Rendering the characters speaking the dialogue is just as much of a crutch as writing it out. you just use different tools.

By showing rather than telling them; the first principle of all good writing. You have a visual stage and and a sound stage. Use those elements to convey and elicit the thoughts and emotions you want. Dont just pop up some pretty prose that basically amounts to an omniscient voice telling me "this character is sad" or "this character is frustrated."

a good writer can show emotions through text. It's because he is a good writer. A poor actor will not convince you of any real emotions. We have plenty of that in gaming.

 

[Lancehead]

By showing rather than telling them; the first principle of all good writing. You have a visual stage and and a sound stage. Use those elements to convey and elicit the thoughts and emotions you want. Dont just pop up some pretty prose that basically amounts to an omniscient voice telling me "this character is sad" or "this character is frustrated."

That works for emotions with visual manifestations.

I meet a person, he forms an impression on me. How does another person know what impression has been made?

I'm thinking about some question which puzzles me. An outsider could see that I'm thinking, but how does he know what I'm thinking?

I'm talking to a person, I don't like the person but I don't betray my feelings. How does one know my true feelings?

 

[EternalGamer]

I'm going to put it simply: which do you think is the more valid approach: Fifa football manager or the regular FIFA games.

Or do you feel mass effect is less of a dumb show than planescape? because the dialogue is voiced?

I'm not sure I understand your first question. But as to your second, yes. I think Mass Effect seems more like characters talking to one another because they actually literally talk.

That has nothing to do with the quality of the script though. A dumb show can ovviously be the smarter play. If Obsidian wants me to envision these characters as puppets or mere silent actors then text bubbles are certainly the way to go.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Man, just think how awesome Deionarra's sensory stone would be with full voice acting and a fully rendered cutscene!

I've crunched the numbers with the boys upstairs, and we can do it... but only if we cut the Public Sensorium from the game, and the rest of the Civic Festhall. Also the Brothel. And they've told me they want to replace Nordom with a bisexual Abishai. Can you do all this by next week? We can patch it after release if not. Also, I have a note here saying playtesters found the game very 'wordy' and some of the decisions don't have clear consequences and lock you out of endgame content, so if you could remedy that... and sex up Ravel a bit, too. She's depressing everyone in marketing.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

This is such a ridiculous talking point.

It's possible to render most everything in Torment in a 3D engine + voice acting and it would be incredible. It would also cost far more to produce than any game in existence.

yes, it would be expensive as fuck.

If you want to show in visuals something as simple as : "the woman was sad because her husband died in the war. She looked as if she hadn't change her clothes since the notice arrived to her last week. Her eyes were sunken into her face, piercing into you, blaming you for parking your dragon on top of him, yadda yadda"

You need to pay not only the writter but:
- someone to sculpt the woman in enough detail to make her distinctive
- someone who is going to render the clothes in enough detail to make the point
- someone to animate the woman, her body, and specially her face

Flashback of you parking your dragon / or something to tell you that she is the wife of the guy (probably dialogue)
- an actor to speak her lines
- someone to do sound editing,etc

 

[EternalGamer]

That works for emotions with visual manifestations.

I meet a person, he forms an impression on me. How does another person know what impression has been made?

I'm thinking about some question which puzzles me. An outsider could see that I'm thinking, but how does he know what I'm thinking?

I'm talking to a person, I don't like the person but I don't betray my feelings. How does one know my true feelings?

And that is way cooler role playng. Because you dont know. The guy could be fronting you. The consequences are more interesting. That is also what makes choices in more complex role playing games more interesting than Bioware's "save the baby/eat the baby" dynamic. Of course if the designers wanted to make it obvious that someone is shady there are always interesting subtle ways to do this that are more immersive than merely telling you in text form.

 

[Shake Appeal]

EternalGamer, have you played Planescape: Torment?

 

[epmode]

I've crunched the numbers with the boys upstairs, and we can do it... but only if we cut the Public Sensorium from the game, and the rest of the Civic Festhall. Also the Brothel. And they've told me they want to replace Nordom with a bisexual Abishai. Can you do all this by next week? We can patch it after release if not. Also, I have a note here saying playtesters found the game very 'wordy' and some of the decisions don't have clear consequences and lock you out of endgame content, so if you could remedy that... and sex up Ravel a bit, too. She's depressing everyone in marketing.

I was about to respond to the strangely well-articulated defense of a lack of imagination but your post made me feel better so I won't.

 

[patapuf]

I'm not sure I understand your first question. But as to your second, yes. I think Mass Effect seems more like characters talking to one another because they actually literally talk.

That has nothing to do with the quality of the script though. A dumb show can ovviously be the smarter play. If Obsidian wants me to envision these characters as puppets or mere silent actors then text bubbles are certainly the way to go.

Characters talking to each other has everything to do with the script. If the script sucks the characters talking will not be any more blievable than through a wad of text. If the acting sucks it won't be any more believable just because there is actually an actor.

you can't seriously believe every information is best conveyed through audiovisuals.

And that is way cooler role playng. Because you dont know. The guy could be fronting you. The consequences are more interesting. That is also what makes choices in more complex role playing games more interesting than Bioware's "save the baby/eat the baby" dynamic. Of course if the designers wanted to make it obvious that someone is shady there are always interesting subtle ways to do this that are more immersive than merely telling you in text form.

you are aware that you can front a guy through text much more effectively than through visuals? In ways just as subtle.

your are aware that making dynamic choices is much easier to do in text than in visuals?

And you are not going to pretend that text cannot be just as immersive as a movie or a picture?

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

If Obsidian wants me to envision these characters as puppets or mere silent actors then text bubbles are certainly the way to go.

That's not how you would see them, at all. Hell, even Dak'kon had a load of more personality than characters that speak a lot in other games.

 

[Llyranor]

Has the last 5 pages seriously been arguing over voice-acting?

You can argue about the merits of VA all you want, there will be a large outcry from the people funding the game if they blow their budget on that. Full-VA WRPGs are deemed standard in the industry right now, yes, and these games already being made. The reason for this Kickstarter project was to break away from the mold of high production costs to focus on other elements that the devs (and players funding the game) deem more important.

Am I the voice of all the backers? No. But it is why I am backing the game. And I will question my backer status if Obs decides to compromise their vision. But this is a non-existent hypothetical, as Obs has never voiced any such desire.

 

[Eusis]

Honestly, if Obsidian does something dumb like announce full VA or console versions, I'll drop my pledge to the bare minimum. I'm not funding that crap. At least live orchestra, I can get behind.

When was the last time full VA was announced as a major selling point for a RPG? Oh that's right, TOR.

And that's partially because full VA became standard with this generation. Now it's not even worth mentioning for the likes of Mass Effect.

But as for a console version: so long as it comes to PC uncompromised I don't see a problem. That'd probably work best if they take the older philosophy of making the game for PC entirely THEN going "how do we get this onto consoles?", but I could see a game like this possibly being a decent fit for the Wii U, the tablet controller would probably be a close enough substitute for a mouse, with all the buttons and sticks being shortcuts and perhaps an alternative for party movement and moving the map view around. Consolitis, or more specifically tailoring the game to console limitations and worse what they ASSUME console players want is the problem as exhibited by Dragon Age 2, not going on consoles period.

 

[wrowa]

I think a well written narrative conveys a unique atmosphere that is unmatched by any visual or spoken medium. Part of the reason I adore many older RPGs is because of the many things that come to life in my mind rather than in game.


In any case, is it possible to end this discussion for good or move it to a new thread? This discussion is going on for far too long, overshadows any discussion about the actual kickstarter and is only superficially related to Project Eternity.

Whether or not one's stance is "right" or "wrong," a simply fact remains: The majority of the people supporting this kickstarter support it exactly because of what it is. This is quite obvious in this thread too, where the people agreeing with EternalGamer can be counted on one hand. It doesn't matter why the others don't agree, maybe they have a legitimate point, maybe they are just clinging to their nostalgia. It's beside the point, since this nostalgia is the very reason why this project exists to begin with. So, trying to argue why this nostalgia is wrong, is trying to defeat the whole purpose of this kickstarter.

If you don't like it, well, that's obviously okay. You are free to not back this project, after all there are many other games you can play instead.

(I'm not saying that voicing dialogue is something that is incompatible with this nostalgia necessarily, however it is incompatible with all of the other things this nostalgia is tied to. Voicing every dialogue in a small budget game like this [and don't kid yourself, even if this ends up at 5 million it would still be a low budget game] would end up restricting the branching dialogue gameplay so many people long for considerably.)

 

[Llyranor]

Feargus: Our goal is to use voice over as flavor and not as something that exists for every written word in the game. We don’t want to cut down on the depth of dialogs or the number of choices that players have because we are counting voice over dollars. That means, like practically every Obsidian project to date, we are going to push the boundaries of reactivity in our dialogs. And, the more we get funded the more we can do that.

End of story.

 

[Lancehead]

And that is way cooler role playng. Because you dont know. The guy could be fronting you. The consequences are more interesting. That is also what makes choices in more complex role playing games more interesting than Bioware's "save the baby/eat the baby" dynamic. Of course if the designers wanted to make it obvious that someone is shady there are always interesting subtle ways to do this that are more immersive than merely telling you in text form.

RPGs already do that, well executed or no.

But what are some these interesting subtle ways? I'd appreciate an example where mental processes without physical manifestations can be communicated without using words to the player.

 

[Schobeleth]

Player housing sounds pretty awesome!

 

[Shake Appeal]

Remember when every last review of Dragon Age complained that the PC was unvoiced, and then they made Dragon Age 2? The dialogue wheel and powerful acting really helped returning players inhabit the role of Hawke, IMO.

 

[Eusis]

End of story.

Just like I had read. You can clearly enhance with a bit of really good VA, but it hardly needs to be full VA or even highly prevalent to do the job.

 

[WanderingWind]

And that is way cooler role playng. Because you dont know. The guy could be fronting you. The consequences are more interesting. That is also what makes choices in more complex role playing games more interesting than Bioware's "save the baby/eat the baby" dynamic. Of course if the designers wanted to make it obvious that someone is shady there are always interesting subtle ways to do this that are more immersive than merely telling you in text form.

Not with current technology and certainly not with the relatively small budget that forms the basis for this game. They have yet to really capture human facial expressions on the level that is necessary for any subtleness, and body language as a tool of subtle expression is decades away. You have a point that there may be other ways to express things other than in text, but not in 2012-2013 and not with 1.5 million dollars worth of funding. There are reasons why written descriptors have traditionally been so enormously impactful throughout history. It offers everybody an equal voice, constrained only by their ability and imagination. As it stands right now, voice acting and visual stylizations are greatly hampered by cost and technology, respectively.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

I've crunched the numbers with the boys upstairs, and we can do it... but only if we cut the Public Sensorium from the game, and the rest of the Civic Festhall. Also the Brothel. And they've told me they want to replace Nordom with a bisexual Abishai. Can you do all this by next week? We can patch it after release if not. Also, I have a note here saying playtesters found the game very 'wordy' and some of the decisions don't have clear consequences and lock you out of endgame content, so if you could remedy that... and sex up Ravel a bit, too. She's depressing everyone in marketing.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

2.5 million, we will have more artists and more assets making this as good looking a game as DA:O in isometric mode.

So, pretty generic and brown?

I mean, let's not be rose-colored here. I love the DA series, but it doesn't really stand out as being graphically fantastic.

 

[Perkel]

1300k$. 300k on second day. Not bad !

 

[Taruranto]

NWN2's UI is pretty good.

Can't tell if we are being trolled, please help.

Don't forget!

 

[WanderingWind]

Can't tell if we are being trolled, please help.

It's pretty good compared to say, Kinect controls. So, in a relative sense, sure!

 

[The Technomancer]

Can't tell if we are being trolled, please help.
Don't forget!

This is amazing

 

[funkystudent]

Random question but do they give any estimated development time for this game?

Big RPG like this had to be at least 18 months and will probably be even longer right?


Super excited to see this though. big fans of Fallout, Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale etc....

 

[The Technomancer]

Random question but do they give any estimated development time for this game?

Big RPG like this had to be at least 18 months and will probably be even longer right?


Super excited to see this though. big fans of Fallout, Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale etc....

Delivery date is estimated in 2014

 

[wrowa]

Random question but do they give any estimated development time for this game?

Big RPG like this had to be at least 18 months and will probably be even longer right?


Super excited to see this though. big fans of Fallout, Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale etc....

April 2014.

 

[Trigger]

2014 seems so far away.

 

[Lancehead]

Can't tell if we are being trolled, please help.

It's pretty good compared to say, Kinect controls. So, in a relative sense, sure!

How come you guys hate a highly customisable UI?

 

[xenist]

Point one. This is magnificent.

Point two. This would have been actually thought off as a valid option had a major publisher ever made a Planescape: Torment sequel.

 

[WanderingWind]

How come you guys hate a highly customisable UI?

Because you can't customize it to not suck.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Wonderful.