Why is it that people acting like realists are really just pessimists?
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Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian Entertainment (Kickstarter) [Up: Teaser]
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Why is it that people acting like realists are really just pessimists?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I guess, beacuse this just as Double Fines's case, two big professional studios that haven't really bothered in making parts of the game before they asked for money to publish it.
I think pretty much everyone agrees and doesn't care. lol, stating this over and over just comes off as antagonistic.
What product are you talking about it? The product "Project Eternity" doesn't exist at this point. People pledge in order to make the product reality -- and, of course, people wouldn't pledge if this was made by an unknown studio with unknown people behind it. That it's made by Obsidian is the very point of it. You can't take the names attached to it away and claim that it would be the same product. It doesn't make sense.
Also, where's the difference to Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2? Both games were nothing else than "I am a big name in the industry and I'd like to do a new game like in the old times".
What's true, though, is that Obsidian apparently went unprepared into the Kickstarter. Judging by all that's been said, however, it's because they truly didn't expect the success this project generates. I agree that it doesn't excuse them, though. They should have outlined future updates (and stretchgoals!) in advance and not after the Kickstarter started.
Why would I be banned? I'm just raising a perspective shared by people who aren't longtime fans of the games they've done. I've seen this discussion elsewhere on the web.
So the response is to suggest I be banned because I bring up points that people don't want to admit have weight?
There's a lot of enthusiasm for the project based on who's working on it. I have no issue with that. But I think that enthusiasm is causing some people to not acknowledge that from an objective point of view, outside of the big names what else is there for this project?
And the big names can be enough to make a good game, but again for other people they like to see more details presented.
The RPG fanbase is huge so it doesn't matter from a funding standpoint. And once again, I'll clarify that I think Project Eternity will be a solid game, but the lack of details and half-hearted presentation (along with $200k stretch goal increments just for an in-game house) have some such as myself a little weary and hesitant/doubtful.
Just because I'm outnumbered in this thread doesn't mean these points don't have merit.
I wasn't saying they presented great ideas. But that people give comparable weight to people as they give to ideas. Because lots of people have great sounding ideas. Molyneux always talked about great ideas but didn't deliver. So it's rational for someone to put less stock on his ideas. Similarly it can be rational, if also emotional, to put faith on Avellone and company. Just as putting faith on ideas can be rational and emotional at the same time.
Bait and switch would be them announcing Bethesda developing the game. Hahahhahahhahahahhs ;_;
I'm not sure what's vague about the project. Sure, some details are not presented yet, but it's very clear to the backers what the project will be: a party-based isometric RTwP RPG in a mature fantasy setting at the hands of Avellone/Sawyer/Cain with no publisher meddling. That's what the backers are pledging for - to us, the details are not as relevant. Maybe to you they are, but that doesn't make us gullible just for being sold on this concept alone - it is a very strong concept. Our gullibility only comes from buying WRPGs in the last few yrs and realizing most of them are crap.
Honestly, I don't see where the switch part comes in. What did they switch? What did they bait us into doing? We haven't spent a cent yet.
I'm not sure what's vague about the project. Sure, some details are not presented yet, but it's very clear to the backers what the project will be: a party-based isometric RTwP RPG in a mature fantasy setting at the hands of Avellone/Sawyer/Cain with no publisher meddling. That's what the backers are pledging for - to us, the details are not as relevant. Maybe to you they are, but that doesn't make us gullible just for being sold on this concept alone - it is a very strong concept. Our gullibility only comes from buying WRPGs in the last few yrs and realizing most of them are crap.
Honestly, I don't see where the switch part comes in. What did they switch? What did they bait us into doing? We haven't spent a cent yet.
Huge leap of faith? When it comes to WRPGs there is literally no way this could have a better pedigree. The body of work of the people working on it consists of some of the best RPGs ever created. It is a safe bet if there ever was one.
I think you don't know what 'bait and switch' or 'leap of faith' mean.
I'd be the first person to agree with you on this.
Well, I have a hard time imagining that they didn't think they'd be a huge hit. There was a lot of buildup to the project, so I feel they should have been better prepared.
With a few notable exceptions, the WRPG market is the worst it's been since 1990-1995.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
People still do this? I hoped all of the Kickstarter project fear mongering was exhausted during the initial batch of Kickstarter games like Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, and Shadowrun.
Yes, it's important to keep one's expectations in check, but you come off as an asshole when start a conversation by assuming people are too dumb to know what they are getting into.
You're not wrong because you're outnumbered--you're outnumbered because you're wrong.
I like you.
arglebargle
Member
no one is suggesting you should be banned. one of the rewards is the ability to name an item. gaf has claimed one of these (as well as naming an inn and npc) and has discussed the item being called the banhammer.
I'm wrong in saying that the presentation is underwhelming and that the generic map and game overview don't distinguish the game concept from other RPGs?
Repeating yourself doesn't increase the merit of your points.
As was already said, I'm not sure anyone here disagrees with you that their kickstarter is sparse on details compared to many other kickstarters (though not double fine, for example.) But, you seem to be expecting everyone else to have the same reaction to this fact that you are -- feeling that they shouldn't be trusted or rewarded for such a vague kickstarter proposal? You're not arguing about facts at that point, you're saying "why don't all you crazies feel the way I do??"
Honestly, my feeling about the kickstarter is "I wish they had more impressive details about the game, because then they might be getting even more funding, but maybe it doesn't matter since there is such huge support anyway. And just maybe they're saving details to reinvigorate things later on in the month. Also: pure joy."
As was already said, I'm not sure anyone here disagrees with you that their kickstarter is sparse on details compared to many other kickstarters (though not double fine, for example.) But, you seem to be expecting everyone else to have the same reaction to this fact that you are -- feeling that they shouldn't be trusted or rewarded for such a vague kickstarter proposal? You're not arguing about facts at that point, you're saying "why don't all you crazies feel the way I do??"
Honestly, my feeling about the kickstarter is "I wish they had more impressive details about the game, because then they might be getting even more funding, but maybe it doesn't matter since there is such huge support anyway. And just maybe they're saving details to reinvigorate things later on in the month. Also: pure joy."
I've seen this tired discussion in every fucking Kickstarter thread from DFA to Wasteland. It just goes in circles and clutters up the thread. We're getting a new hardcore RPG from the best names in the business, that's why we've signed up. If that's not enough for you personally, back out your pledge and leave until the game releases.
This guy gets it.
Avellone could announce a kickstarter for a flash game made in 24 hours and I'd pay him 20 dollars to do it.
That's all it'd have to say, in fact.
"I'm Chris Avellone and I want to make a stupid game in 24 hours."
*throws money at screen*
arglebargle
Member
i like this guy. you will do well here, junior.
People calling me an "a**hole" doesn't decrease the merit of my points, either.
That's not what I'm saying and that's not my reaction. And I am using facts. I've discussed the details or lack thereof. I've used examples of other kickstarters' presentations. False projections.
This is how I feel. But I don't think they have many details to save right now. They hadn't even talked about stretch goals beforehand.
No, the issue is that you consider this a bait and switch and that people are over-enthusiastic. When in fact it's normal procedure to reveal the concept over the course of the month which is the funding period, and it's actually rational to go by people just as much as by ideas.
Your post would be good & all if it wasn't for the fact that 1) Obsidian took this long to Kickstart their game because they didn't want to rush into anything (they could've just tried to go with the flow of the early Kickstarters) and 2) it seems they have quite a lot planned of the project as well as how they'll progress with the Kickstarter. It has only been 3 days, give them time to show us more. It's you who's impatient for new info. The reason why this is still kind of barebones from our POV is EXACTLY because they thought they'd actually have to put some effort into getting to 1,1 million so they thought they'd start with the whole "heya, we made many of your favorite RPGs" and go more & more in-depth with what they have planned for the project as the Kickstarter advanced. So they probably had all kinds of cool little revealments planned that they could drop through the Kickstarter page & other venues here and there during the 32 day Kickstarter. Now it's gotten shittons of attention, so they do have to be quicker about it (but still not just puke everything out ASAP).
And my god, we have every reason to be excited about this project since many of the BEST RPG developers are on board of this project (people who haven't made a bad game). This isn't just some "hey, I kind of followed the development of this kind of decent game, give me money" Kickstarter like Payton's Republique. It's fuckin' Avellone, Cain, Sawyer & Co. They pretty much have the best understanding of how to make deep, well written & greatly designed WRPGs that don't go for the lowest common denominator like Bethesda & Bioware's RPGs do (nowadays).
While I agree the stretch goals so far are kind of boring, they are probably exactly what this game needs. From what I've understood, 1,1 million would've given us a kind of barebones version of Project Eternity that's stripped to as small a size as possible (just like Double Fine Adventure's original goal). The first extra million will basically go to fleshing out the world, story & characters of the game as well as giving more options. If they get over 2,4 million, THEN I'm sure we'll start seeing some different kinds of stretch goals (i.e. mod tools, perhaps?).
I said it could be considered a bait and switch on paper, not that it's actually one. I don't think they're scamming anyone. But while they're riding high on reputation now, like you said I just hope they reveal more details and information during the next couple of weeks. But judging so far, they were unprepared and may not have a lot to show right now.
My remark about over enthusiasm was directed at a lot of the comments directed at me. If you think that I have an issue with people being enthusiastic about a project, that's absurd. But judging by the responses, the point I've been making has been misrepresented and simplified into people saying that I don't want people to be as enthusiastic.
No, the comment was that excessive enthusiasm for something causes people to overlook other details. LOL at the notion that I have an issue with people being enthusiastic about something they enjoy.
Yup, there's a reason why the largest funded kickstarters to date have been by great game developers (and many of them have been vague about the game they're making...)
people > ideas
(and that's true of not just kickstarter, but the whole game industry and far beyond.)*
also, thanks for the welcome guys. This is the thread that finally got me to start posting
*anywhere people have even a rough idea of how hard it is to go from idea to execution.
also, thanks for the welcome guys. This is the thread that finally got me to start posting
If only more juniors were as reasonable as you.
ShockingAlberto was a junior once.
I've contributed to reserve my boxed copy and I plan to toss more cash in for the GAF Inn.
I still wish they would share more information about what they intend to do with the game or lore about the world. They are good enough to be hired based on their credentials or I wouldn't have supported. I wouldn't call it a bait and switch either, just a lack of information.
Yet I still want to know more about the game.
I can't even make sense of their stretch goals. They tell me I get an extra playable race... but what are the ones that are already in the game? Is there only one, would this make it two? What are the classes, does an extra one matter?
If they gave a few more details, I think they could really pull in the fence sitters, knocking that total up even farther.
If they tell us how the story grows if we get that next stretch goal and I might be tempted enough to jump to $100.
I still wish they would share more information about what they intend to do with the game or lore about the world. They are good enough to be hired based on their credentials or I wouldn't have supported. I wouldn't call it a bait and switch either, just a lack of information.
Yet I still want to know more about the game.
I can't even make sense of their stretch goals. They tell me I get an extra playable race... but what are the ones that are already in the game? Is there only one, would this make it two? What are the classes, does an extra one matter?
If they gave a few more details, I think they could really pull in the fence sitters, knocking that total up even farther.
If they tell us how the story grows if we get that next stretch goal and I might be tempted enough to jump to $100.
Delusibeta
Banned
Well, $1.5 million in three days: not to be sniffed at.
No, I'm not saying you had an issue but that your observation that
isn't necessarily true even against those who were directing comments at you. Especially so since you argued for the superseding importance of one type of detail (ideas) over another type (people).
Base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions.
So now it's four races, six classes, and six companions right?
Where did you get this!? I read the gamespy interview and didn't see this there or on the page? Did I miss some kind of release?
What kind of question is this? "Take away everything that makes this project, would you still like it?" Uh...
Holy shit, we are not talking about Todd Howard and David Gaider, it's motherfucking MCA and co.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Shagg is raising money to bribe EviLore to ban juniors. What a monster
It's on the kickstarter page. Check the stretch goals update and read the description for the 1.1 million funded.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Are his stretch goals to bribe Lore to ban PopGAF? Cause I have lots of money.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Depends... J-Pop, K-Pop, B-Pop, Teen-Pop or Indie-Pop?
Hey, hey, hey. Leave of us out of this thanks. lol
No one should try to replicate Arcanum in anything but the c&c and quest design.
What,
It's skill system is really good, just needs more balance or power for the tech side.