Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
A question about 24p in blu-ray movies: It's really not that much of a difference, is it? Either that or I'm not sure my Sony W655 is doing right. I think motion may look better, but I'm not sure. 
I compared it on/off on a credits sequence, figured it should be obvious with constant scrolling, but nope. Not sure how are these 60hz sets supposed to do constant 24p anyway without juddering and whatnot.
Not sure what are off-screen pictures supposed to show to be quite honest, but the Kuro looks overly saturated and nothing like the direct feed content I've seen of KI.
I compared it on/off on a credits sequence, figured it should be obvious with constant scrolling, but nope. Not sure how are these 60hz sets supposed to do constant 24p anyway without juddering and whatnot.After seeing a picture of a top of the line Sony 4k playing KI im not so sure I want to swtich my KURO. Might have to wait for OLED
Sony
Pioneer
Not sure what are off-screen pictures supposed to show to be quite honest, but the Kuro looks overly saturated and nothing like the direct feed content I've seen of KI.
Linkin Park
Banned
I can't stand my TV, it just has one too many problems. So, I'm looking for a new one.
Can any body help me out?
I'm looking for a preferably LED TV that's above 32" but below 42". 40 inch would be great. Preferably Sony or Samsung. I'm thinking of around a budget of $450. I don't know if I would be able to get something decent for that price or not.
Can any body help me out?
I'm looking for a preferably LED TV that's above 32" but below 42". 40 inch would be great. Preferably Sony or Samsung. I'm thinking of around a budget of $450. I don't know if I would be able to get something decent for that price or not.
Unknown Soldier
Member
If it wasn't safe to display video on your TV, then there would be something wrong with your TV and not the video. I've used the pixel jogged a lot on my VT60 to clear IR from long gaming sessions.
How long does it need and what settings are best to use for the video?
lostinblue
Banned
It is, that said it tips the ABL in a big way, it's certainly not to be seen (unless you want to have epilepsy) but use it without fear for the panel well being.
It does it's thing, it's just not pleasant. In a lot of senses it's like a full frame hardcore scroll bar; it's good for breaking in and cleaning IR.
There's Sony's entry-level KDL-40R450A:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZQQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I can't speak for its quality but I imagine it's all right, for the price.
pocketaces
Member
.
Cool, cheers bro. Should I use my calibrated settings for the jogger or stick it on dynamic for extreme cleansing?
Souldestroyer
Banned
lostinblue
Banned
I'd use custom or normal with contrast on max.Cool, cheers bro. Should I use my calibrated settings for the jogger or stick it on dynamic for extreme cleansing?
I don't know about dynamic, dynamic is essentially variable peak settings, changing according to the source, I don't know if it can answer as fast as the thing is doing it's white and black patterns, so perhaps it would just defeat it altogether.
JrBaconCheeseburger
Member
After seeing a picture of a top of the line Sony 4k playing KI im not so sure I want to swtich my KURO. Might have to wait for OLED
Sony
Pioneer
Now I see what you meant.
I am coming from a panasonic plasma GT60 60" so I knew I would sacrifice the blacks.
Honestly the crappy iphone cropped pics off screen are not a good thing to base your decision from.
Take your console and hook it up to a 4K and judge yourself.
I just got tired the of the plasma problems.
I'm not expecting the games to be 4K
It looks good at 1080P/720P
Unknown Soldier
Member
The ABL prevents the TV from showing the brightest possible white anyways, since it's a straight white frame alternating with a straight black frame. So Dynamic won't accomplish anything. I just use whatever my calibrated settings are, but I've unlocked the Pro settings so I set the panel brightness to High and Contrast to 100 in the hopes I will hit the highest possible white level during the field blinking.
As for how long it takes, well as long as it takes until you can't see the IR anymore on a straight white frame. Just pause the pixel jogger on a white frame and examine the TV closely for signs of IR.
Black Republican
Member
any recommended game settings for Panasonic TC-P50S60?
As much as I love my 60" Pioneer Kuro they are no good for playing fighting games on due to the input lag.
Using the Leo Bodnar Input Lag tester one user on shmups forum got 53.8ms input delay on his 5010FD which is about right.
As for the 4K LCD's the most stunning one I have seen is the Panasonic it's also the most future proof one at the moment (won't be long as the new 4K displays role in) with support for HDMI 2.0.
My dream TV right now would have to be:
- OLED min 65" (Not curved)
- 4K
- Amazing motion resolution
- Input lag of under 16ms (tested with Leo Bodnar 1080p source)
I'd put down $8,000-$10,000AUD for a display like that (My Kuro cost me $10,000 when I got it.). The sad thing is this is all possible if a manufacture aimed for this..however it seems they are too busy coming up with gimmick (3D) after gimmick (curved screens). It makes me so mad.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The vast majority of people won't spend that kind of money on a TV, and gimmicks are what sell products to the unwashed masses. It's kind of sad that people aren't willing to invest a significant amount of money on something they'll be staring at for years of their lives but that's just how people are.
I figured I'd take some screens of my new TV. After doing this I've reconfirmed how useless off-screen shots are, they just don't accurately represent what they display actually looks like.
If it wasn't for the uniformity issues(which you can't see here), I'd be more than perfectly happy with the 42W655.
If it wasn't for the uniformity issues(which you can't see here), I'd be more than perfectly happy with the 42W655.
Right, will do. Not sure if you remember but you very kindly helped me out a while back with some persistent IR. I should really get a pic of it actually, so give me a couple of minutes, but how long should I leave jogger on for to clear it?
edit: Right, pic is below. To be clear, I'm not sure if it's permanent but it hasn't cleared since it appeared, although this is probably because it's coming from my Xbox One, which I use all the time, so the logo appears frequently — but briefly. The IR is pale but certainly noticeable on light content.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Scroll up, I answered your question.
How long? Until it's clear. That's all. Every panel is different, and if you've been burning it in there a long time, it might take a long time to clear. Plasma display panels fundamentally work by burning themselves up like the Sun, and if you've been burning one thing awhile it's going to require burning another thing for awhile until you've equalized the relative amounts of burning, so to speak.
Thanks man! Yeah, I had an idea of mocking up a 1920x1080 white screen with the logo inverted on it to see if that would 'invert' the IR back to normal, if that makes sense but I haven't done it out of fear of making it worse somehow.
lostinblue
Banned
I usually check for IR on a full 50% grey frame.
I remember.
if it's pale in the outlines (hard to explain, but you check that over a full white or grey frame) it shouldn't be too bad.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Is that more revealing for IR than a 100% white frame?
Over white or light colours, it just looks like a really faint inversion of the logo no outlines. I've tried to simulate it in Photoshop. When watching daytime content, it looks exactly like this.
So far I've watched Pacific Rim, Star Trek Into Darkness, Iron Man 3, and Tron: Legacy. Honestly, it looks stunning on the VT. Full resolution, with inky blacks and incredible z-axis depth both ways. It's far better than 3D in the cinema, at least for me.
Only complaints are the supplied glasses seem to eat up battery pretty quickly and it's a bit easier to see dithering in darker scenes.
Crosstalk is good but seems to vary across titles. Iron Man 3 has a lot of it. Star Trek and Pacific Rim have a bit, but Tron has none.
Awesome...so I can get through one or two movies on one charge right? Also I don't really know what crosstalk is...care to elaborate?
Thanks.
lostinblue
Banned
It is a lot more revealing on my VT60.
Previously I didn't check over grey, I did so over black on my older (and cheaper) plasmas because all I had to do was change to an unused video source channel to check it or full white but found that it mostly didn't work on the VT60.
Hence me saying the thing was strangely IR resistent out-of-the-box. Then I shuffled through the break-in slides and found one to be the most revealing, this:
Suffices to be said if it only appears on that one it's very, very light. But it does clearly show things I didn't dream were there over full white.
EDIT: Imax, if you can check the TV with a full frame of that.
Oh yeah, easily. They don't charge though, they use watch batteries.
Crosstalk is basically seeing a faint ghost of the 'other' half of the 3D image through one of the lenses. Usually it's very noticeable when there's 3D subtitles on the screen (Pacific Rim has a bunch of these) and it looks like you're seeing double.
lostinblue
Banned
They're very good, but 3D is "experimental" tech implemented on top of the panels and existing tech and thus it has to conform to them, not really the other way around for the most part, even if parts can be done to be better performing to accommodate it... To an extent.
I'm saying this in order to pin this: 3D on any set out there is a step down from the best possible 2D performance on that set. VT/ZT and 4K displays being no different.
All panasonic plasmas minus the first one (VT20) use single scan 3D; this means, paraphrasing: "the brightest and darkest screen updates are drawn at 1080p resolution, with intermediate brightness steps being displayed at 540p"
This is not a huge problem of course, and I can guarantee from my first hand experience that not only have I not learned how to discern this at this point as I find the 3D it displays to be more impressive than the one I've seen when I saw Avatar (or any 3D movie) on the cinema.
Up close though, it's quite clear there's more dithering going on because all of a sudden half of the subfields have gone for each frame; it's due to that nature of the panels and subfields that the resolution for intermediate steps is halved, because that way dithering is actually reduced and contrast is enhanced... what we see up close is reduced in regards to what it could have been, but the caveats are still visible.
On a side note, blacks on 3D mode, at least on my uncalibrated set are also higher. 3D by nature means spending more energy and have a hit on overall brightness so they clearly had to go higher, rising blacks a little as well.
As for 4K TV's, they're usually only as good as their 2K counterparts and I doubt they'll be compatible at this point (preceding hdmi 2.0) with 4K 3D sources; this said, LG insists on passive 3D glasses and their 4K sets are no different.
Passive means 1920x540 for 3D frames on all situations (it's not the FHD single scan business mentioned a few paragraphs over, that only uses half vertical resolution on subframe updates). On a 4K set it means 3D can be shown at 1920x1080 unlike previous 1080p passive 3D sets (I don't know if it does that as I never took an interest on them but it has all the extra pixels it needs for that)... but it can never pull more than 3840x1080 instead of the eventual 3840x2160 of a active 4K TV; it's half resolution for that.
Then you have active 3D LCD or OLED sets, those are the ones with less variables going on, so caveats are less pronounced.
Not to say I don't think for a second that my VT60 trounces everything on the market under Sony W900 and models over it, for 3D. But that's because of IQ alone that even while slightly hampered it's still pretty darn fine.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The problem I've seen with my VT60 in the limited 3D viewing attempts I've made is that there just isn't enough brightness with the ABL limits, the THX 3D Cinema preset I used while putzing around with it is locked at Contrast 100 and it's still a pretty dim picture. Plus at Contrast 100 the ABL kicks in constantly and causes distracting brightness shifts.
I'm sure a 4K LCD, taking into account the inherent limits of LCD, can easily get much brighter than the VT60 and really no one should even give a crap about 4K 3D content when 1080p 3D content is so limited in the first place. A 4K LCD has the ability to show 1080p 3D with full resolution simply by alternating scanlines and it can do so with just passive 3D glasses and that's a much simpler solution than the active 3D with alternating frames required on 1080p panels of any kind, plasma or LCD.
None of this matters that much though, as the 3D gimmick seems to have run it's course on the home theater side and we're seeing growing disinterest in it from the manufacturers as consumers have just not responded favorably to it so far. It's possible the 4K LCDs, which dramatically simplify the costs and effort required for 3D cinema at home, will reignite consumer interest because they aren't as complicated. But 3D just hasn't caught on at home, and I'm not predicting that will change much. People seem to like going to movie theaters for 3D cinema but don't want to futz around with it at home.
I'm sure a 4K LCD, taking into account the inherent limits of LCD, can easily get much brighter than the VT60 and really no one should even give a crap about 4K 3D content when 1080p 3D content is so limited in the first place. A 4K LCD has the ability to show 1080p 3D with full resolution simply by alternating scanlines and it can do so with just passive 3D glasses and that's a much simpler solution than the active 3D with alternating frames required on 1080p panels of any kind, plasma or LCD.
None of this matters that much though, as the 3D gimmick seems to have run it's course on the home theater side and we're seeing growing disinterest in it from the manufacturers as consumers have just not responded favorably to it so far. It's possible the 4K LCDs, which dramatically simplify the costs and effort required for 3D cinema at home, will reignite consumer interest because they aren't as complicated. But 3D just hasn't caught on at home, and I'm not predicting that will change much. People seem to like going to movie theaters for 3D cinema but don't want to futz around with it at home.
WonkyPanda
Member
is ABL mandatory? I just realized why I was having that brightness issue and it makes sense that ABL is causing that shift in brightness.
Unknown Soldier
Member
In order to meet the increasingly stringent US and European energy consumption standards, ABL was implemented on plasma TVs a number of years ago. Plasma is a self-illuminating technology, unlike LCD which has a backlight that's always on. So the PDP is consuming the most energy when showing a white frame, when all subpixels are illumated at maximum brightness. OLED works the same way, but at a dramatically lower energy consumption and heat emitted. The OLED panel on your phone uses more energy while showing a white screen than a black one, in theory both PDPs and OLED displays use no power when showing a black screen beyond the supporting electronics.
The ABL limits the brightness of the picture based on the amount of energy being consumed, so you can easily see this by showing a 50% white/50% black frame split any way you like, and then a 100% white frame. The 50/50 frame will have a much brighter white side then the 100 white frame.
One reason plasma has been dying is the manufacturers have aggressively researched ways to increase panel efficiency but it has not been keeping up with the yearly changes to Energy Star (US) and TCO (EU) standards. This is why if you are to put up a 100% white frame on a plasma TV today, you will have only 40% of the panel's theoretical maximum brightness as limited by the ABL. That's right, 40%.
Note that a 100% white frame, limited to 40% of the panel's theoretical peak brightness, still sucks ~430W of power from the wall. The equivalent LED-sidelit LCD HDTV uses less than 100W of power to light it's efficient LED side-lights.
Remember that power consumption (and heat emitted) increases as a square of pixel density. Now imagine how much power a 4K plasma would consume, and how hot it would get. Yup, that's why there aren't going to be any 4K plasmas.
Rex_Harrison
Banned
Anyone that buys a 4K TV right now is insane. $5K for a TV whose main feature has next to zero support ? You're basically going to end up like the HD early adopters. 5years after they bought their $12k TV with 1 HDMI port (if they're lucky), HD content finally starts rolling out, and now, sets that make yours look like a hot turd are selling for 1/8 the price and come with 4 HDMI ports.
Even OLED right now isn't as tempting as it should be. Curved screens have got to be the dumbest gimmick I've seen in a while, especially on anything smaller than 80".
WonkyPanda
Member
Ah, that makes perfect sense as to why Dnice's white slide would come off as a grey shade. It's unfortunate that that type of energy restriction is in place. It's odd, though, I never noticed it on my old 2009 Panny plasma. Perhaps I never paid attention to it.
EDIT: However, it does seem that ABL is far more of an issue with active 3D. I'm not sure what it is, but I can definitely see when the panel changes its brightness.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
Meh... Tech always gets cheaper, but flagship models do not...If it's not your cash, then it shouldn't really bother you. If anything buying a 4K tv before CES next week could be an argument, but you're still within the 30 days return policy so people are still straight.
And Gimmicky gets thrown around WAYYYY to much while speaking about tech people don't agree with.
Unknown Soldier
Member
In order for active 3D to work, you need to show 2 frames in the frame where you show one, and the active glasses do the work to direct each subframe to each eye. However this cuts brightness by 50%, since you are showing 2 frames at once but only directing the light from one subframe to each eye.
So to have exactly the same brightness in 3D that you do in 2D, you need to double the panel's brightness. That's impossible with ABL limiting peak brightness of the panel.
RukusProvider
Banned
ABL will be more obvious on a full white screen vs a windowed pattern or presentation.
If brightness and whites are you thing, get rid of the Panny and pick up a Samsung Plasma. The colors are a little better on the Samsung also but you'll lose out on black levels.
At this point, I'd wait on CES in a couple of days to see if any Samsung is going to just do a rebadge or come out with something awesome for their plasma line.
WonkyPanda
Member
Thanks, makes perfect sense. Perhaps that's why it seems LEDs seemed to be a little more geared towards 3D with their ability to output retina-burning brightness. DNice has his 3D settings have the panel brightness set to 'High,' but it's kind of funny seeing how bright the panel is without the glasses and then putting the glasses on.
Well, tbh, i've only seen ABL be a factor on Dnice's pure white slide and during 3D (disclosure: i've only tried Avatar, but I hear this is a reference-level 3D movie). In terms of games and movies, I have not been able to eye ABL being an issue beyond those mentioned.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
About the black levels, I had a VT and my 8000 in home while I was exchanging one for the other. I was able to do a A/B comparison, and it's not that noticeable. I had to really look to see a difference. Is it there... yes... but again, that was while I had both side by side. Nothing really jumped out at me while viewing dark content. I did notice that the shadow details was a bit better on the Panasonic. I preferred the colours (color accuracy after calibration), and the brighter overall image on the Sammy.
I kinda wish I had my friend measure the levels with his equipment.
lostinblue
Banned
No doubt about that. But people will give a crap - anyone buying a 4K set is looking forward, so 4K 3D or the ability to pull it... matters.
Not that simple, passive is certainly attractive from a easy and cheap point of view, but...
Only LG is insisting on passive, Sony and Samsung 4K screens pull active 3D on them, believing it's the best solution even if they'll probably never pull 4K 3D (due to sub hdmi 2 bandwidth limitations); thing is they theoretically could, providing the chips in there can take it and someone comes up with a dual feed hdmi 1.4 3D source or something like that.
The problem is the glasses and lack of 3D sources/standards for regular TV emission. Blu-ray didn't take off for the masses, so if you wanted 3D to be a selling point TV channels had to have that option in a transparent way (and not a side by side, half resolution HD channel at that).
Also, 3D sans glasses means double the horizontal resolution for one point of view, meaning for a very limited viewing area, 3840x1080 would do; add, say, 3 points of view and that's 115520x1080, not an easy panel to manufacture by any means; it's easier to go 4K.
And that's why they did; otherwise, if 3D actually sold TV sets like gangbusters I doubt ew'd be rushing to 4K in the next 5 years time. I mean we're going head on onto them without being prospects of 4K physical media, or proper streaming for quite a while, it just so happens that people think always think they need more resolution and rarely think they need 3D.
But I digress.
Hawk269
Member
The best 3d you can get right now, imho is a Sony 4k 900a set. 3d is truly incredible on this set and really blows anyone that watches a 3d movie at my house away.
Haint
Member
Crosstalk is ghost images or double images that arise from display deficiencies. The VT60 (like all PDP's and LCD's I'm aware of) is still very poor with content that has a strong 3D effects and any semblance of dynamic range and contrast. Such images are completely awash in crosstalk. Specifically games that give you full control of depth/convergence are especially problematic, which is honestly the only content that's worth the trade off of having to wear the glasses, murdering the light output, and just generally degrading the image quality.
What are some of your go-to movies to show off 3D on the set? The only 3D I've tried on mine was actually Uncharted 3, which was surprisingly cool. Going to try Puppeteer later since I hear that's really awesome as far as games go.
Also, while on the subject, can you use the W900A for nVidia 3D Vision? I'm assuming not, since I know a TV's refresh rate is somehow not the same as a monitor's refresh rate, but that'd be rad. Currently have the W900A hooked up to my receiver with the PC as one of the inputs, and it functions as a giant third monitor... PC gaming on the thing is awesome. Lower resolution (PC display is a Dell u3011) but I could not give a shit because it looks amazing and runs better due to the drop in resolution.
The 60" VT60 @ $1800 is awfully tempting.
Does anyone here have any experience with older Panasonic pro displays and how they stack up to the VT60, particularly as it relates to brightness and latency?
I've been using a Panasonic 42PH9UK panel since the end of 2006. I game heavily on it, though I don't do a lot of online/twitch gaming on my consoles (I save most of that for my PC). I still get some IR on my set, but no long term burn-in. I don't know what the input lag is on the 9UK versus Panny's newer models. I always assumed mine wasn't terrible since it was a pro display, but I seem to recall having to calibrate for Rock Band because the delay was notable. The ABL on the newer sets concern me more than anything else, if only because my friends I play a lot of NHL on the Xbox.
Since the Panasonic plasmas will soon be gone, I'm really waffling about whether or not I should take the plunge. I realize that Samsung will continue manufacturing plasmas, but I'm not sure if they'll come close to matching the 60" VT60's current value within the next 4 to 6 months, and I'd like to upgrade before summer.
As an aside, while I've always preferred the look of plasma versus LCD, I will admit that the Sony W900A also looks very good, and the low latency is undeniably impressive. Unfortunately, it is 5" smaller and costs $200 more, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye on Sony's sets in the future.
Does anyone here have any experience with older Panasonic pro displays and how they stack up to the VT60, particularly as it relates to brightness and latency?
I've been using a Panasonic 42PH9UK panel since the end of 2006. I game heavily on it, though I don't do a lot of online/twitch gaming on my consoles (I save most of that for my PC). I still get some IR on my set, but no long term burn-in. I don't know what the input lag is on the 9UK versus Panny's newer models. I always assumed mine wasn't terrible since it was a pro display, but I seem to recall having to calibrate for Rock Band because the delay was notable. The ABL on the newer sets concern me more than anything else, if only because my friends I play a lot of NHL on the Xbox.
Since the Panasonic plasmas will soon be gone, I'm really waffling about whether or not I should take the plunge. I realize that Samsung will continue manufacturing plasmas, but I'm not sure if they'll come close to matching the 60" VT60's current value within the next 4 to 6 months, and I'd like to upgrade before summer.
As an aside, while I've always preferred the look of plasma versus LCD, I will admit that the Sony W900A also looks very good, and the low latency is undeniably impressive. Unfortunately, it is 5" smaller and costs $200 more, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye on Sony's sets in the future.
Haint
Member
Tomb Raider 2013 PC is the best show piece I'm personally aware of, though a lot of PC games are crazy impressive. The key difference is many of them allow effectively full control over depth and convergence. Video/film content and most console games (including UC3 and Pupeteer) are locked into a very narrow range and have incredibly mild/shallow 3D effects because of it. Many PC games can be dialed to your IPD, display, and viewing distance to produce nearly 1:1 diorama effects. You could convert the stanchest 3D hater with a properly calibrated PC game, they're like you've never seen 3D before and that's not hyperbole.
lostinblue
Banned
Hi, Pro displays have no ABL, even the newer ones; they're also stuck on 8192 steps of gradation at best (against the 30720 on the VT60); your panel has 3072 steps btw.
That is a 1024×768 panel, so it's direct heritage is the X60 set this year and they're known to be not as bright as other Panasonic plasmas; I don't think you have much to worry about said transition tbh, there's no measurements to be had over the web (and plasmas have gotten dimmer over the years) but I believe the VT60 should match or surpass that peak white, it also has a anti-glare and constrast filter which your set lacks, that helps quite a bit too... do you game in a well lit room?
In regards to input lag, 2006 and a pro panel no less, I'd expect it to be 16,7 ms since every panel in that less processing heavy era did deliver that. Panasonic pro plasma line is prepared to be used as monitors too, no less.
I love those professional plasmas btw.
JrBaconCheeseburger
Member
Good post.
The lights are dim or off when I game or watch TV, and I keep the blinds and curtains closed most of the time, so there's no direct sunlight hitting the set.
And, yeah, I know my panel doesn't even support a true 720p resolution, but I think it still looks pretty damn good today. The only regret I had was that I didn't fork out the extra cash for the 50" model.
Anyway, thanks for info!