Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

If the F8500 only had VT30 blacks (.004fL), it would not have been voted as best display at the shootout.

It wasn't. Not by the professionals at least.

Brighter image doesn't mean it's sharper. Under critical viewing conditions, dimly lit room with both achieving 120 cd/m^2 there is no sharpness difference. That is like saying that LCDs are sharper when they are not. I just don't like this bullshit.
 
It wasn't. Not by the professionals at least.

Brighter image doesn't mean it's sharper. Under critical viewing conditions, dimly lit room with both achieving 120 cd/m^2 there is no sharpness difference.

And THAT is your opinion. We both have opinions. No need to pretend yours is science. I said it looks sharper to me and the enthusiasts at the Shootout agreed.
 
It wasn't. Not by the professionals at least.

Brighter image doesn't mean it's sharper. Under critical viewing conditions, dimly lit room with both achieving 120 cd/m^2 there is no sharpness difference. That is like saying that LCDs are sharper when they are not. I just don't like this bullshit.
Uh, what? I'm talking about black level, not sharpness.
 
If you have actual MLL numbers to prove this, I'd like to see them. Because every professional review (CNET, VE shootout to name a couple) place the Samsung on equal footing with the ST60 in terms of blacks and just a smidgen below the VT/ZT. If the F8500 only had VT30 blacks (.004fL), it would not have been voted as best display at the shootout.

I've seen reports of Fullscreen and ANSI values being pretty different on the F8500. IIRC Fullscreen is usually around 0.002fL (+/- a couple thousandths) and there are claims that the ANSI can almost double that. Samsung's also have a reputation of vastly differing performance across the size range (e.g. 51" is often inferior to the 64").
 
I've seen reports of Fullscreen and ANSI values being pretty different on the F8500. IIRC Fullscreen is usually around 0.002fL (+/- a couple thousandths) and there are claims that the ANSI can almost double that.

This is what I was gathered as well.

VT/ZT60 = .001
F8500/ST60/VT50 = .002
VT30/VT20/ST50 = .004
Older Panasonics = .006-.008 (pre-rise)
 
Uh, what? I'm talking about black level, not sharpness.

Oh come on. Obviously only the first part of my post was a reply to you. Some reading comprehension please.

So no it wasn't selected as the best display by the likes of D-Nice etc. The professionals preferred the ZT60 while the people attending the event (this is an event open to the public) preferred the 8500 because it was brighter. I don't put much value in that. That's like people saying that they prefer LCDs on the show floor because they are brighter.
 
Oh come on. Obviously only the first part of my post was a reply to you. Some reading comprehension please.

So no it wasn't selected as the best display by the likes of D-Nice etc. The professionals preferred the ZT60 while the people attending the event (this is an event open to the public) preferred it because it was brighter. I don't put much value in that. That's like people saying that they prefer LCDs on the show floor because they are brighter.

I thought the professional's overall winner was the VT60, as they found performance to be identical, but the ZT60's AR filter too aggressive in cutting peak light output.
 
Oh come on. Obviously only the first part of my post was a reply to you. Some reading comprehension please.

So no it wasn't selected as the best display by the likes of D-Nice etc. The professionals preferred the ZT60 while the people attending the event (this is an event open to the public) preferred the 8500 because it was brighter. I don't put much value in that. That's like people saying that they prefer LCDs on the show floor because they are brighter.

D-Nice et al. gave Panasonic the edge by a hairs breadth. Look at their actual score cards. Shit was close. It wouldn't be close if the Samsung had VT30 blacks or worse. Brightness isn't the only thing the F8500 has to offer.
 
The attendees of the event. Not the professionals at the event. Stop spinning this.

Really? I am spinning this!? Attendees = enthusiasts. I did not say professionals. I love how the Panasonic defense force gets enraged when someone prefers a different TV. I could not care less about what anyone thinks, really. I chose the best looking TV to MY eyes. No need to beat my opinion down as you are.
 
So, has ST60 lag issues been fixed with newer firmware or some hack?

Not to my knowledge, however I personally do not think it's an "issue" for most people.

For reference - I've had my 60" ST60 since the day they released and I have 5,810 hours on it. I game extensively on it and play a decent variety of games. I have never even once noticed the input lag on it at all.

I do not think it's as high as it's reported to be. Reason being: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

They surmise that the Leo Bodnar test is not accurate for Panasonic Plasmas at all and the real numbers on them are closer to the camera test numbers.

From my own extensive experience with my ST60 I believe this to be the case. I've played shooters, platformers, shmups, action rpgs, fast action games like Bayonetta/MG Rising, etc on it and the controls have never felt off. There's no real difference for me between it and my NEC 20WMGX2 monitor in responsiveness either, but I might not just be sensitive to the difference between them (which could be the case). At least not for the games I've played.

I don't play Fighting games though and it could very well matter there.
 
I thought the professional's overall winner was the VT60, as they found performance to be identical, but the ZT60's AR filter too aggressive in cutting peak light output.

Or that. I don't remember it all that well too much. It wasn't the 8500 that I know. And of course it was close. The 8500 is a damn fine display. Can't wait to see what Samsung has in store this year.
 
Not to my knowledge, however I personally do not think it's an "issue" for most people.

For reference - I've had my 60" ST60 since the day they released and I have 5,810 hours on it. I game extensively on it and play a decent variety of games. I have never even once noticed the input lag on it at all.

I do not think it's as high as it's reported to be. Reason being: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

They surmise that the Leo Bodnar test is not accurate for Panasonic Plasmas at all and the real numbers on them are closer to the camera test numbers.

From my own extensive experience with my ST60 I believe this to be the case. I've played shooters, platformers, shmups, action rpgs, fast action games like Bayonetta/MG Rising, etc on it and the controls have never felt off. There's no real difference for me between it and my NEC 20WMGX2 monitor in responsiveness either, but I might not just be sensitive to the difference between them (which could be the case). At least not for the games I've played.

I don't play Fighting games though and it could very well matter there.

To accept that theory is to accept that either the VT60 is a 23ms display or the NA and EU displays are not comparable. Whatever the case there ain't no how no way the NA VT60 is a 23ms display

NA VT60:

IUiWZaG.jpg


FXfOd9M.jpg

NA U50


Even ignoring the laptop panel's lag (which I'd estimate to be between 10 - 13ms and would need to be added to all the values you see above) clearly there is at minimum a 1 frame difference between the VT60 (~47ms Bodnar) and U50 (~27ms Bodnar). So if you accept that the VT60 is 23ms, this would mean the U50 breaks space time to come in at (negative) -6ms once you account for laptop panel.
 
So as much as a F8500 matches a VT30 whilst being brighter, and that's impressive, I probably prefer a series 30 panasonic plasma just the same if what I'm looking for is good old spot-on color accuracy.
I don't know about the VT30 having better color accuracy. At the VE shootout, the VT30 lost to the competing Samsung model at the time in regards to color accuracy. Panasonic released a couple of firmware updates to fix it. Although it was better, the VT30 still had some issues. The 8500, on the other hand, has no such issues. It's even pretty accurate out of the box. I also got much better calibration results out of my 8500 than the VT30 I had.

In addition, the VT30 (and even VT60) has extra high frequency sharpening in the picture. It's not like edge enhancement in terms of severity--there's no ringing. Other artifacts do show up in certain test patterns though. The 8500 doesn't, so it has a bit more of a purer image in terms of resolution.

The 8500 has a less aggressive ABL than the VT30 and doesn't crush whites as bad either. This is also ignoring dither noise and phosphor lag which are leagues better on the 8500. Even the screen filter is better. I don't have a meter accurate enough to personally measure black level, but IIRC, the measurements I remember seeing online indicate that black level is better too.

The only area that VT30 truly shines over the 8500 is floating blacks. When something bright quickly appears on a dark screen or there's a sudden fade to black, the black level goes up. The blacks become much lighter. Most of the time it's not noticeable--especially if you're not in a dark room--but you can still see it on occasion. The VT30 had a similar issue, but it was greatly reduced by a firmware update. It's virtually imperceptible now. This isn't the case for the 8500. It most of the categories, the 8500 is a better, more accurate display than the VT30. The only other plasmas that can really equal or best it are the VT/ZT60 and Pioneer 9/9.5G.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the 8500 is also much more stable than the VT30 in terms of grayscale accuracy. It drifts a lot and can be a bit finicky to calibrate compared to the 8500. You're calibrations will require more touch up and maintenance than usual.
 
Didn't the 30s have some issue where they pushed too much green, or had green splotches? I cant remember...
 
I believe it was some sort of red push, among other things. There were a couple of problems with the color (some of which were fixed), but I can't remember the details. You can get a reasonably accurate picture out of the VT30, but it will fight you along the way.

There were issues with green splotches on the screen as well, but that was a manufacturing defect that only affected certain units and was separate from the aforementioned color errors.
 
To accept that theory is to accept that either the VT60 is a 23ms display or the NA and EU displays are not comparable. Whatever the case there ain't no how no way the NA VT60 is a 23ms display

NA VT60:



NA U50



Even ignoring the laptop panel's lag (which I'd estimate to be between 10 - 13ms and would need to be added to all the values you see above) clearly there is at minimum a 1 frame difference between the VT60 (~47ms Bodnar) and U50 (~27ms Bodnar). So if you accept that the VT60 is 23ms, this would mean the U50 breaks space time to come in at (negative) -6ms once you account for laptop panel.

That test shows 31 ms for the VT60. Add 15ms for the laptop and you get 46ms.

The Bodnar is spot on.

I have no issues playing BF4 on the my 60" VT60. I have no idea what kind of lag my 08' 40" Samsung had. I don't think I've ever played a FPS on a low lag TV extensively. Except for the W802a that I had for a week before returning it. I guess I've just adjusted to the lag .
 
So the NA models of the VT60 are higher? Because my 65VTW60 (European model sold in Germany) comes in at 41,5ms using the Bodnar lag tester.
 
So the NA models of the VT60 are higher? Because my 65VTW60 (European model sold in Germany) comes in at 41,5ms using the Bodnar lag tester.

Yes the Bodnar seems to produce a 5 or 6ms discrepancy across regions, the question is where you would account for the other 20-someodd ms HDTVTest's theory proposes.
 
Is the sony w900a still the tv to buy if looking at LCD screens in that size, or has something else been shown?

Can't say I disagree with the price of that TV either, as I am looking for something to hold me till OLED.
 
So the NA models of the VT60 are higher? Because my 65VTW60 (European model sold in Germany) comes in at 41,5ms using the Bodnar lag tester.

Wondering if I am missing something here, as I without actually owning a plasma, was under the impression they had the least response times especially when compared with LED, they ofc dont have motion blur, which some leds have, but would personally take a tiny bit of motion blur over response time, (as stated before my tv is 16-33ms depending on its mode, according to AVforums) therefore the Sony 905a comes in as the leading choice for gaming?

Gladly someone correct me :)
 
Is the sony w900a still the tv to buy if looking at LCD screens in that size, or has something else been shown?

Can't say I disagree with the price of that TV either, as I am looking for something to hold me till OLED.
I think that's the general consensus of this thread for LCD televisions.
 
Is the sony w900a still the tv to buy if looking at LCD screens in that size, or has something else been shown?

Can't say I disagree with the price of that TV either, as I am looking for something to hold me till OLED.

The new 2014 sonys are sounding pretty good.
 
So, has ST60 lag issues been fixed with newer firmware or some hack?

I wish they would update the firmware for lower lag. stores in my area still have these tvs but I wont buy it unless the lag is fixed.

also checked out a Samsung 8500 today. looked like more dithering than the Panasonics, I could hear the electrical whine even in store which is awful but most surprising was the anti-glare coating. the vertical viewing angle is low quality lcd bad, wtf Samsung. it really ruins the picture unless looking perfectly center.
 
I got to see the LG OLED HDTV today at my local Magnolia. I needed a towel, I was drooling so hard. The picture was absolutely gorgeous and the blacks were perfect. If I had $7000 and didn't own a Kuro Elite, I'd be over that tv in a heartbeat I am really excited to see what else we get in the OLED department as time moves forward.
 
I wish they would update the firmware for lower lag. stores in my area still have these tvs but I wont buy it unless the lag is fixed.

Won't help.

There is a cheaper processor inside it compared to the hexa core in GT,VT and ZT that causes the extra lag.
 
Wondering if I am missing something here, as I without actually owning a plasma, was under the impression they had the least response times especially when compared with LED, they ofc dont have motion blur, which some leds have, but would personally take a tiny bit of motion blur over response time, (as stated before my tv is 16-33ms depending on its mode, according to AVforums) therefore the Sony 905a comes in as the leading choice for gaming?

Gladly someone correct me :)

Input lag is a combination of response time + image processing time + scaling time + anything else they're doing. Response time is strictly how fast the pixels can change from white to black, gray to gray, or however they decide to measure it.
 
It still kinda is.

There's one extra fan on the back, speakers are back facing on the ZT60 rather than front facing like with the VT60, the usb and hdmi ports are gold plated, the anti-glare filter is different and is applied directly adjacent to the panel nuking the "air box" (the panel though, is the very same, it's just the finishing that varies) and... There's an option to turn off the power LED whilst the TV is on, which is good for absolute darkness et all, but you can pull the same with black tape.

That's it.

Y-you son of a bitch...

I never even noticed it was on til I read this. Now I can't unsee it while watching the thing.

I found a 7-month old 60" Panasonic S60 on craiglist. Should I buy it?

I don't play in total darkness.

Yes. I was on the hunt for an S60 for a good 2 months with no luck til I finally dropped the extra cash on the VT60 and basically just paid for a bunch of features I'll never use. I think the S60 would've suited my needs much better but there were none to be found near me. My buddy has one and the picture's pretty damn gorgeous.
 
You don't need total darkness to appreciate a plasma. The color reproduction and accuracy, as well as lighting is just more natural looking than LCD.
 
Didn't the 30s have some issue where they pushed too much green, or had green splotches? I cant remember...

magenta was off in the CMS. It was later fixed in a firmware update though you were able to calibrate with the magenta issue. I haven't calibrated a VT30 since late 2011 so I cannot remember exactly but it required you to bump it all the way up or down one of teh 2 and not touch another area of it.
 
Where do people find these plasma tvs anyways?

I'm thinking about buying a new tv and would not mind getting a plasma but since they're discontinued it seems difficult. I'd prefer to get a 42" plasma (looks like at one point Panasonic did have one: http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P42S60 but I have no idea if people are just finding these on Craigslist or eBay or some other source I'm unaware of.
 
Is the sony w900a still the tv to buy if looking at LCD screens in that size, or has something else been shown?

Can't say I disagree with the price of that TV either, as I am looking for something to hold me till OLED.

It's an excellent TV for gaming given its price, picture quality, and input lag. I'd been stressing out over which new TV to get for a while (was waiting for OLED, which doesn't seem to be happening) and am very happy with my w900a.
 
I found a 7-month old 60" Panasonic S60 on craiglist. Should I buy it?

I don't play in total darkness.

If you've never seen the S60 in person, it's pretty dim. It lacks any type of anti-reflection filter, so it wouldn't look very good in a well lit room. Blacks will look more grey than black during the day.
 
I found a 7-month old 60" Panasonic S60 on craiglist. Should I buy it?

I don't play in total darkness.
Absolutely, I've said it time and time again, the S60 has probably been the best tech purchase I've ever made. The image quality that this plasma set delivers at the price point simply can't be beat. The blacks are inky and deep, the colour representation is accurate and uniform and most of all the panel uniformity and clarity are top notch. I don't play in pitch black either, I usually game during day time with a curtain drawn. If you have an extremely bright room, then sure a plasma may not be what you need. But if you have some degree of light control, either via a shade, or the TV's position in the room, then you'd be fine with this set. I also have a black out shade if I really want to emphasize the screen's picture, and I have an LED backlight mounted on my TV's rear to add bias lighting which really compliments the picture in a dark room.
 
I have an LED backlight mounted on my TV's rear to add bias lighting which really compliments the picture in a dark room.

The best tech purchases I ever made was easily my ST60, the second best was definitely the simple LED backlight strip for my ST60. It's so much better than watching in a purely dark room. No eyestrain what so ever and it really does compliment the picture. And yeah, you don't need to completely darken a room for a Plasma. You just don't want any light sources directly hitting it really. Blackout curtains are great for this (if your SO lets you put them up!).

Here's an album with my use of blackout curtains for my little TV room (there's now a PS4 where the X360 sat though): http://imgur.com/a/uHYaB

They work pretty awesome, imo.
 
I've seen reports of Fullscreen and ANSI values being pretty different on the F8500. IIRC Fullscreen is usually around 0.002fL (+/- a couple thousandths) and there are claims that the ANSI can almost double that. Samsung's also have a reputation of vastly differing performance across the size range (e.g. 51" is often inferior to the 64").

Full Screen contrast ratio are so outdated that it's a joke they are still being used nowadays.
Nearly every TV & with every tech has some kind of auto dimming feature when the screen is all black.
I guess manufacturers want those 10,000,000:1 contrast ratio bullet points when they sell their TVs.

ANSI is what matters.
 
Full Screen contrast ratio are so outdated that it's a joke they are still being used nowadays.
Nearly every TV & with every tech has some kind of auto dimming feature when the screen is all black.
I guess manufacturers want those 10,000,000:1 contrast ratio bullet points when they sell their TVs.

ANSI is what matters.

Dynamic contrast is a complete sham. You're right, most LED TV's can shut off the backlight completely when on an all black screen. So manufacturers take that unrealistic black level reading and then crank the backlight and contrast to 100, which basically makes it as bright as the sun.

And that's how they get 30,000,000/ 1 contrast ratios. Most people don't realize those blacks can never be achieved when there is actual content on the screen. And having the backlight and contrast set to 100 would burn your retinas, not to mention create a completely washed out and unrealistic picture.
 
Full Screen contrast ratio are so outdated that it's a joke they are still being used nowadays.
Nearly every TV & with every tech has some kind of auto dimming feature when the screen is all black.
I guess manufacturers want those 10,000,000:1 contrast ratio bullet points when they sell their TVs.
That and Dynamic brightness modes being used (chips to the backlight: "it's a light scene out there, crank it all up!"). Some LCD's can hit 400 cd/m^2 but that figure can't result in a calibrated result, hence it's only there so it gets brighter and then you can claim to have a better contrast ratio despite the fact that MLL is laughable.
ANSI is what matters.
Allow me to pick it up here. I have unfinished business here (been absent, seldom without access to a PC for the last few days) and I was being called out for something related, ANSI is very important.

If you have actual MLL numbers to prove this, I'd like to see them. Because every professional review (CNET, VE shootout to name a couple) place the Samsung on equal footing with the ST60 in terms of blacks and just a smidgen below the VT/ZT. If the F8500 only had VT30 blacks (.004fL), it would not have been voted as best display at the shootout.

I've said that F8500 akin to a VT30, from memory might I stress, and turns out that's not really accurate, but it's not really inaccurate either. Turns out it doesn't win by a hair in ANSI, it looses by a hair.

Anyway, since I have time now I'll collect MLL figures, full black and ANSI, know though that I value ANSI the most.

I'll say this though, F8500 is not on equal ground with the ST60 on that, and it's still fine. I'll explain the criteria beforehand too, I'll be only using a site for my figures, because that reduces the possibility of discrepancies. That site being hdtvreviews, because I think they're often serious and they give out things like color curve before calibration information et all, which is also relevant to the points I was making regarding color accuracy that I was talking about. I don't wish to chase that rabbit down it's hole so I won't be linking them and I'll simply leave the criteria out there

Compiled short list:

Ov7IoI0.png


(I believe the VT20 number features the floating black phenomena) It's not ST60 territory, taking full black aside which is not really representative (but not to be totally discarded as well), ANSI is really more important and the panel shows it's true colors there, full black is definitely dimming voltage or something on the F8500 it's not the true black value.

There's a lot of things to consider though, which is why both matter to a point, measurements on lower inch models have a bigger light rise register on ANSI (see the figures I have for VT60, on the 65" reviewed model it's 0.033 cd/m^2 for full black and 0.039 cd/m^2 on ANSI, these nuances are appreciable all across the board, year on year), which happens due to the fact that light gets across more, through the glass the smaller dot pitch/measure area is, not necessarily because the black itself is lighter. This even happens on OLED's. This actually benefits the Samsung values (seeing it's a 64" model) over most if not all TV's I've pinned against it on ANSI though, still doesn't come out impressive.

I do stand by my super bright ST50 "lite" comment though.
I don't know about the VT30 having better color accuracy. At the VE shootout, the VT30 lost to the competing Samsung model at the time in regards to color accuracy. Panasonic released a couple of firmware updates to fix it. Although it was better, the VT30 still had some issues. The 8500, on the other hand, has no such issues. It's even pretty accurate out of the box. I also got much better calibration results out of my 8500 than the VT30 I had.
VT30 was a weird year with all that patching and other roadblocks, I sure had forgotten that momentarily.

But I stand by my comments somewhat. See, the company being pro-market focused is a very big plus in my book because that pro-line always gets translated down one way or the other, down. Samsung plasmas are not bad, unlike LG's, but they lack that on their belt. VT30 is really the bad example due to green blobs galore, but otherwise MgO Sputtering and the like are things I'm used to see in Sammy's not Panasonic's, albeit I'm sure that's for a variety of reasons and they might be all but solved now, but it's a question mark still. On the other hand panny panels were engineered to last more than the televisions themselves (I'm particularly weary of the entry model PSU's although that's fixable with eventual maintenance).

As a side-point to my argument I think Trinitrons were so damn good because of Sony PVM/BVM line and the Sony newer lines sure are benefitting from impulse/strobing options, which originated on their current pro-line models. I love having a piece of that in my place, if not the real thing, a thing that retains something of that R&D.
In addition, the VT30 (and even VT60) has extra high frequency sharpening in the picture. It's not like edge enhancement in terms of severity--there's no ringing. Other artifacts do show up in certain test patterns though. The 8500 doesn't, so it has a bit more of a purer image in terms of resolution.
Wasn't aware of that and I value PQ, does it attack HD content or just SD content? Because I don't care much for the latter (gaming aside, who needs processing anyway)

Funny that I've recently heard people calling the Sammy's "sharper" if so, though.
The only area that VT30 truly shines over the 8500 is floating blacks. When something bright quickly appears on a dark screen or there's a sudden fade to black, the black level goes up. The blacks become much lighter. Most of the time it's not noticeable--especially if you're not in a dark room--but you can still see it on occasion. The VT30 had a similar issue, but it was greatly reduced by a firmware update. It's virtually imperceptible now. This isn't the case for the 8500. It most of the categories, the 8500 is a better, more accurate display than the VT30. The only other plasmas that can really equal or best it are the VT/ZT60 and Pioneer 9/9.5G.
I'd wager the ST60 and ST50 are close, but I also thank you for the feedback.

Out of the box I've heard and seen that Samsung calibration is not nearly as good as that of my VT6, if you bring a professional calibrator to the table the thing is perfectly able to comply and turn into a better TV for it, but if you can't (I'm not paying for it anytime soon I'm afraid) then panny's have an advantage, at least 2012 and 2013 models.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the 8500 is also much more stable than the VT30 in terms of grayscale accuracy. It drifts a lot and can be a bit finicky to calibrate compared to the 8500. You're calibrations will require more touch up and maintenance than usual.
That fits perfectly into my "pro-line" argument and what I was about to finish of saying, I'm not very sure how Samsung Plasmas age, I've heard and seen rising blacks on them (not recent ones, 2010/2011, I believe - roughly same era Panasonic had them), but for panny's we have a solution and we know it's solved, we don't have any for Sammy's, probably only because there's not a community as active there, but above all that we also know that panny plasmas were tossed into the 100.000 hour claim for the panel because that's what they promise to their professional customers (that figure gets used nowhere these days, much less attached to OLED screens whose blue diode could be lasting as little as 15.000 hours to half life), Samsung and LG followed, but I really don't know what to expect from a F8500 with 5 years (regarding MLL performance also, and the "ultra bright" decision might also toll into the panel phosphor lifespan), I do know what to expect from a Kuro or a VT60 though (I expect them to be fine, although they might not, like everything mass produced). Not from a Samsung, and that matters to me.

VT30's of course are the bad sheep in here, because I really never know what to expect of them, although I expect color accuracy to be not so bad, it's more about the aforementioned green blob issue. They're the only Panasonic plasmas where that's a chronic occorence (I've seen dark blob patches on that black risen samsung I was talking about previously though, wasn't pretty).
 
It's an excellent TV for gaming given its price, picture quality, and input lag. I'd been stressing out over which new TV to get for a while (was waiting for OLED, which doesn't seem to be happening) and am very happy with my w900a.

I think I will bite, unless some gaffers praise the 2014 line, it has everything I want until the price of OLED is realistic.
 
The best tech purchases I ever made was easily my ST60, the second best was definitely the simple LED backlight strip for my ST60. It's so much better than watching in a purely dark room. No eyestrain what so ever and it really does compliment the picture. And yeah, you don't need to completely darken a room for a Plasma. You just don't want any light sources directly hitting it really. Blackout curtains are great for this (if your SO lets you put them up!).

Here's an album with my use of blackout curtains for my little TV room (there's now a PS4 where the X360 sat though): http://imgur.com/a/uHYaB

They work pretty awesome, imo.
Very nice setup! People on the fence about plasma should definitely take a look at your setup to see how to make the most of the awesome picture quality that plasma delivers.
 
Wasn't aware of that and I value PQ, does it attack HD content or just SD content? Because I don't care much for the latter (gaming aside, who needs processing anyway)

Funny that I've recently heard people calling the Sammy's "sharper" if so, though.I'd wager the ST60 and ST50 are close, but I also thank you for the feedback.
The Panasonic's high frequency sharpening occurs on HD content. Using a full 1080p, 4:4:4 signal with all of the extraneous processing turned off and the sharpness on 0, it's still there. Again, with real world programming, it's unlikely to be noticeable. Nonetheless, it's still there.

As for why Samsungs are often reported to look sharper, that could be due to a number of reasons. First, it could simply be that people notice and prefer the supposedly purer, cleaner picture. The sharpness of the Panasonics could look less natural by comparison. There's also the possibility that the brightness and "pop" of the 8500 gives an illusion of sharpness. Finally it could be in the processing of the display. The Samsung could be using a process similar to a Darbee processor by boosting the contrast of high frequency details. This makes edges and highlights stand out and have more pop, but without the usual ringing artifacts. It may not necessarily use that same processing--it may be some other artificial effect going on under the hood. I can't day definitively.

I'm skeptical of the first as it sounds too good to be true. The second is plausible; however, I vaguely recall Samsungs getting praise in this area pre-8500. And prior models weren't anywhere near that bright. That would make the third option more likely. It could also be a combination of things too.

I'd wager the ST60 and ST50 are close, but I also thank you for the feedback.
Indeed, they are both quite competitive (especially the ST60). I also forgot to mention that the VT50 is very comparable to the 8500 as well.

Out of the box I've heard and seen that Samsung calibration is not nearly as good as that of my VT6, if you bring a professional calibrator to the table the thing is perfectly able to comply and turn into a better TV for it, but if you can't (I'm not paying for it anytime soon I'm afraid) then panny's have an advantage, at least 2012 and 2013 models.
I can tell you from experience that, although the VT60's color is excellent out of the box (surprisingly so), the grayscale is not. And when the grayscale is off, that high color accuracy isn't very perceivable. Gamma is also off, but isn't as vital for color (contrast and detail though...).

The VT60's looks really good out of the box, but I'd still consider the difference between the two to be smaller than the difference between either one that's calibrated. And given the tendency of the VT60 to drift, the differences could grow. It's a hell of a lot easier to calibrate the VT60 than the 8500 though.

That fits perfectly into my "pro-line" argument and what I was about to finish of saying, I'm not very sure how Samsung Plasmas age, I've heard and seen rising blacks on them (not recent ones, 2010/2011, I believe - roughly same era Panasonic had them), but for panny's we have a solution and we know it's solved, we don't have any for Sammy's, probably only because there's not a community as active there, but above all that we also know that panny plasmas were tossed into the 100.000 hour claim for the panel because that's what they promise to their professional customers (that figure gets used nowhere these days, much less attached to OLED screens whose blue diode could be lasting as little as 15.000 hours to half life), Samsung and LG followed, but I really don't know what to expect from a F8500 with 5 years (regarding MLL performance also, and the "ultra bright" decision might also toll into the panel phosphor lifespan), I do know what to expect from a Kuro or a VT60 though (I expect them to be fine, although they might not, like everything mass produced). Not from a Samsung, and that matters to me.

VT30's of course are the bad sheep in here, because I really never know what to expect of them, although I expect color accuracy to be not so bad, it's more about the aforementioned green blob issue. They're the only Panasonic plasmas where that's a chronic occorence (I've seen dark blob patches on that black risen samsung I was talking about previously though, wasn't pretty).
I was referring to the tendency for the grayscale to drift more quickly over time. There's also difficulty in getting stable, consistant, and accurate readings while calibrating. The VT30 had this issue, but they were able to pretty much fix this with the VT50. Strangely the VT60 exhibited some of these problems again--though to a slightly lesser degree. This is different from floating blacks or rising black level.

I don't know about longevity though. I certainly hope that my VT60 and 8500 will last a while. I'm especially nervous now that plasma is being phased out. If they go, that's it. You could be right, but I'm still glad I bought extended warranties for both. Fingers crossed.
 
I don't know about longevity though. I certainly hope that my VT60 and 8500 will last a while. I'm especially nervous now that plasma is being phased out. If they go, that's it. You could be right, but I'm still glad I bought extended warranties for both. Fingers crossed.
I always found it to be very sane to insure top range TV's, they sure do deserve it and it's a fail safe mechanism for theft and malfunction. The fact Plasmas are so complex and draw more power to function just ensues that there's also more to go wrong in there.

I couldn't do it for my VT60 because the store didn't sell those but I sure think you did the right thing for those two (also big props for owning those 2 TV's, that's impressive)
 
From the panasonics and samsungs I have calibrated Samsungs are by far the most color accurate displays I have seen. Their CMS and color calibration is on point. Panasonics are good, but Samsung imho beats them out when it comes to color accuracy. Though Panasonics have always been better with MLL, Gamma, and Grayscale, contrast ratios, etc which makes up the most defining factors of PQ.
 
It's becoming quite a headache for me to find a good television for my living space, as all the stores I've gone to don't carry 47 inch models, and I'm just scared with ordering the one that I want from an online store. Especially if there is something wrong with it & I couldn't return it for an exchange/refund.

My price range is somewhere between the $850.00-$1200.00 range, and it needs to have low imput lag, great blackblevels, colour contrast, etcetera. Any suggestions?
 
From the panasonics and samsungs I have calibrated Samsungs are by far the most color accurate displays I have seen. Their CMS and color calibration is on point. Panasonics are good, but Samsung imho beats them out when it comes to color accuracy. Though Panasonics have always been better with MLL, Gamma, and Grayscale, contrast ratios, etc which makes up the most defining factors of PQ.
I understand it might sound like I'm entering the blind faith corner (which I actually despise) but please bear with me in the sense that I'm an absolute sucker for sturdy industrial design and shit meant to last, at least on paper or down to industrial design.

I'm a designer at trade, both graphical and industrial, but I have a serious crush on objects... The sturdy ones (I have apple stuff, but I despise the decisions behind it, see, apple aligns itself into the "honest" branch of cold design (germanic) but they rape it in the ass each time they pull aluminum and glass shenanigans again. [this line of though origins in honesty which is also letting the product be whatever it wants to be, it's the line of thought that stated radios inside cabinets were silly, steel structures were pretty and didn't have to be hidden from view with rocks, etc), a laptop or tablet obviously wants to be made of inexpensive and tolerant to impact plastic - not shitty alluminium] Specifically Aluminum is one of the less resilient metals on earth, and can't be wielded properly (but they do wield it on macbook lids, which is a bad principle), they also abuse glue and glass which are poor choices, glue comes loose with heat and glass, well, glass breaks, it's fine on screens like the ipad, but it makes little sense on a laptop or desktop computer where it suddenly acts as a mirror. The fact they charge more for not having the glass is an absolute travesti too but I'd pay more to have a plastic macbook pro, that's how strongly I feel about this.

This is for context, I always loved Nintendo classic design, stuff like the original gameboy or the Gamecube, which were absolute tanks when it come to surviving kids, I also loved IBM laptop designs back in the day, sturdy unassuming plastic, as I did motorolla 2-way radios, Land Rover Defender and stuff like that. Stuff meaning business. I dislike flimsy pieces of crap.

I obviously love pro-oriented devices, and I do see that on some Sony and Panasonic devices from time to time. I was actually talking about this with a friend yesterday, he found a mini disc player going through his things, complete with the included lcd remote thing and wondered how come that kind of sturdy build quality, finish and premium feature balance is not currently available, and I agreed, minidisc devices looked like professional derivatives back in the day, very premium, they came with the aforementioned remote that I haven't seen anyone shelling out in years, that meant that the player could almost never be seen - now they want to sell me a watch that can tell me I'm having a heart attack or leave me stranded with a darn volume and pause (double press to skip) buttons on my headphones, if I'm lucky. All that while that piece of 1998 history will tell you the name of the track and allow you go fast forward, rewind, pause, skip, order it to go random...

When I bought one of my PVM's, I got it shipped from germany and it didn't go so well, it arrived working but litterally disassembled, the packaging was loose and damn dudes transporting it clearly let it fall somewhere, hence, some screws came loose and broke the hook points on the front bezel, TV wouldn't close, really.

So I opened it. And holy shit.

First of all, this is not plastic with ordinary width, no, the design was something textbook worthy, reinforcements everywhere, every cable was insulated and everything was shielded, it also reminded me of a classical mackintosh, clearly more premium though.

I didn't have a lot of hope though, damn hook points were broken, I had pieces of them out, and others making noise inside, how could I ever close it again? perhaps with plastic wielding? Longer screws?

To cut the story short... the thing had unused screw holes on the structure and corresponding hook points on the bezel, so I only had to switch the screws somewhere else and the set is fine to this day.

They added multiple extra fixing points precisely because something like this could happen and the show must go on. I'm a sucker for that, seriously, I hope someday I can design something as sturdy and so well thought out.

I have a similar passion towards Pioneer sets and pro Panasonic sets even though I don't own any - yet. Kuro's had the same design as the pro set they sold without tuners, actually. And the design is 100% pro-oriented. I love it (I also love the fact they have ports for everything in there)

The other part of the story is how some user on shmup forums bought a 1998 BVM and discovered the thing had been 11 years plugged in nonstop (had more than 100.000 hours), quick google will tell you CRT's are meant to last 60.000 hours, never 100.000 let alone being that well off. That's testament to what a pro line has to be, 10 years nonstop operation was explained to me later as being the gold standard every company aims for in the pro market, it's what clients expect; which is why the OLED cooperation between Panasonic and Sony was the only one openly caring about lifespan, because both were thinking of channeling those panels intro professional offerings before offering those to the consumer oriented market.

I realize this might be biased to a certain point also, and nothing stops other companies from fighting their way around this through other means (downright good engineering, taste for offering a good product and the public responding to that), but I'm a sucker for pro-line products I can't possibly afford - or the next big thing (sometimes it's like wanting a Ferrari and buying a Fiat, but I don't think it's the case here, these plasma panels are really the consumer versions of a pro production line and they have all the bearings of it).

tl;dr - I just wrote a love letter to sturdy, long lasting pieces of technology. And took a shit on most of Apple aesthetic choices.
 
From the panasonics and samsungs I have calibrated Samsungs are by far the most color accurate displays I have seen. Their CMS and color calibration is on point. Panasonics are good, but Samsung imho beats them out when it comes to color accuracy. Though Panasonics have always been better with MLL, Gamma, and Grayscale, contrast ratios, etc which makes up the most defining factors of PQ.

This goes against everything I've ever heard about these two manufacturers. I've heard from multiple sources that Samsungs are known for their inaccurate colors , and Panasonics are known for having very accurate colors.

The VT60 for example can be calibrated to where the Delta Errors are almost non existent across the board. How can Samsung or anybody improve on that ?
 
I understand it might sound like I'm entering the blind faith corner (which I actually despise) but please bear with me in the sense that I'm an absolute sucker for sturdy industrial design and shit meant to last, at least on paper or down to industrial design.

I'm a designer at trade, both graphical and industrial, but I have a serious crush on objects... The sturdy ones (I have apple stuff, but I despise the decisions behind it, see, apple aligns itself into the "honest" branch of cold design (germanic) but they rape it in the ass each time they pull aluminum and glass shenanigans again. [this line of though origins in honesty which is also letting the product be whatever it wants to be, it's the line of thought that stated radios inside cabinets were silly, steel structures were pretty and didn't have to be hidden from view with rocks, etc), a laptop or tablet obviously wants to be made of inexpensive and tolerant to impact plastic - not shitty alluminium] Specifically Aluminum is one of the less resilient metals on earth, and can't be wielded properly (but they do wield it on macbook lids, which is a bad principle), they also abuse glue and glass which are poor choices, glue comes loose with heat and glass, well, glass breaks, it's fine on screens like the ipad, but it makes little sense on a laptop or desktop computer where it suddenly acts as a mirror. The fact they charge more for not having the glass is an absolute travesti too but I'd pay more to have a plastic macbook pro, that's how strongly I feel about this.

This is for context, I always loved Nintendo classic design, stuff like the original gameboy or the Gamecube, which were absolute tanks when it come to surviving kids, I also loved IBM laptop designs back in the day, sturdy unassuming plastic, as I did motorolla 2-way radios, Land Rover Defender and stuff like that. Stuff meaning business. I dislike flimsy pieces of crap.

I obviously love pro-oriented devices, and I do see that on some Sony and Panasonic devices from time to time. I was actually talking about this with a friend yesterday, he found a mini disc player going through his things, complete with the included lcd remote thing and wondered how come that kind of sturdy build quality, finish and premium feature balance is not currently available, and I agreed, minidisc devices looked like professional derivatives back in the day, very premium, they came with the aforementioned remote that I haven't seen anyone shelling out in years, that meant that the player could almost never be seen - now they want to sell me a watch that can tell me I'm having a heart attack or leave me stranded with a darn volume and pause (double press to skip) buttons on my headphones, if I'm lucky. All that while that piece of 1998 history will tell you the name of the track and allow you go fast forward, rewind, pause, skip, order it to go random...

When I bought one of my PVM's, I got it shipped from germany and it didn't go so well, it arrived working but litterally disassembled, the packaging was loose and damn dudes transporting it clearly let it fall somewhere, hence, some screws came loose and broke the hook points on the front bezel, TV wouldn't close, really.

So I opened it. And holy shit.

First of all, this is not plastic with ordinary width, no, the design was something textbook worthy, reinforcements everywhere, every cable was insulated and everything was shielded, it also reminded me of a classical mackintosh, clearly more premium though.

I didn't have a lot of hope though, damn hook points were broken, I had pieces of them out, and others making noise inside, how could I ever close it again? perhaps with plastic wielding? Longer screws?

To cut the story short... the thing had unused screw holes on the structure and corresponding hook points on the bezel, so I only had to switch the screws somewhere else and the set is fine to this day.

They added multiple extra fixing points precisely because something like this could happen and the show must go on. I'm a sucker for that, seriously, I hope someday I can design something as sturdy and so well thought out.

I have a similar passion towards Pioneer sets and pro Panasonic sets even though I don't own any - yet. Kuro's had the same design as the pro set they sold without tuners, actually. And the design is 100% pro-oriented. I love it (I also love the fact they have ports for everything in there)

The other part of the story is how some user on shmup forums bought a 1998 BVM and discovered the thing had been 11 years plugged in nonstop (had more than 100.000 hours), quick google will tell you CRT's are meant to last 60.000 hours, never 100.000 let alone being that well off. That's testament to what a pro line has to be, 10 years nonstop operation was explained to me later as being the gold standard every company aims for in the pro market, it's what clients expect; which is why the OLED cooperation between Panasonic and Sony was the only one openly caring about lifespan, because both were thinking of channeling those panels intro professional offerings before offering those to the consumer oriented market.

I realize this might be biased to a certain point also, and nothing stops other companies from fighting their way around this through other means (downright good engineering, taste for offering a good product and the public responding to that), but I'm a sucker for pro-line products I can't possibly afford - or the next big thing (sometimes it's like wanting a Ferrari and buying a Fiat, but I don't think it's the case here, these plasma panels are really the consumer versions of a pro production line and they have all the bearings of it).

tl;dr - I just wrote a love letter to sturdy, long lasting pieces of technology. And took a shit on most of Apple aesthetic choices.

WTF ?

That was a brutal read.
 
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