'Playing with privilege: the invisible benefits of gaming while male'
- Status
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Wanted bang, got whimper
It's not hard to discuss objections without being a fool.
Like someone else said, it's not about who has it worst or being made to feel bad because yo¨ don't have it bad, just take a moment to think about some problems with gaming culture and people in general.
It's not hard to discuss objections without being a fool.
Like someone else said, it's not about who has it worst or being made to feel bad because yo¨ don't have it bad, just take a moment to think about some problems with gaming culture and people in general.
poorlonelycomputer
Member
Speaking as a white male: not being concerned about privilege IS privilege. So, no. And if you're concerned about it, why not acknowledge it and work to minimize it?
If I was to walk around thinking I was privileged because of my race or gender I would feel like an pompous ass. I think there are advantages in certain contexts. For example if I am white, I am less likely to be searched by cops for drugs, even though statistics show blacks and whites are equal in drug use, but black people are arrested more.
I am interested in a substantiative response. No need to go out with a bang, but I think its too late with your preface!!
DeejayKnight
Member
I'm among those surprised at the articles use of "White male" in the title when the list generally doesn't require a denotation of race.
I'm a black male gamer and have done nothing to hide that fact. Anyone who claims that racism or sexism no longer exists hasn't lived in the shoes of someone who's experienced it. You'd be surprised that I see racism to this day, both online and in person (though less frequently in person. I'm a big guy).
I'm a black male gamer and have done nothing to hide that fact. Anyone who claims that racism or sexism no longer exists hasn't lived in the shoes of someone who's experienced it. You'd be surprised that I see racism to this day, both online and in person (though less frequently in person. I'm a big guy).
For anyone who wants to understand white privilege, here's a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY
A right is something that is enforced by law, and therefore something that is enforced by the threat of violence.
To have the right to not be prejudged would be the basis for thought crimes.
no its not treating everyone with respect doesn't require you to think or even acknowledge that people of color face racism. you should show all people the same respect regardless of their color, gender, sexuality. I am not going to say "Well he(colored man) has to deal with racism, so I need to do something above what I would a white person". I am going to treat them the same as I would a white person. respect has zero to do with what others go through and has all to do with how you treat others.
GreenTornadoX
Member
I think this is mostly this, honestly. This is why people act dickish on Facebook and Twitter, even though their name and location is out there.
Not all male gamers are sexist assholes. Some people make it seems like all male gamers are like an abercrombie ad meets 18th century sadie aribia.
but all fail to miss the only true way to overcome this.
it really all starts with the children. we need to as societies put more money and importance on acceptance and unity in schools rather than the sports teams. make more people aware of child abuse. cut down on bullying and really just teaching kids how to be decent people.
people are not a holes just because... they are taught to be that way.
But alas because of religious and cultural differences this will not be a quick overnight turn around.
but all fail to miss the only true way to overcome this.
it really all starts with the children. we need to as societies put more money and importance on acceptance and unity in schools rather than the sports teams. make more people aware of child abuse. cut down on bullying and really just teaching kids how to be decent people.
people are not a holes just because... they are taught to be that way.
But alas because of religious and cultural differences this will not be a quick overnight turn around.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You're wrong. It already got better with just this:
See? You became more aware thanks to this article. No doubt others have, too. So it's already doing a decent job.
We live in a post-Anita world, yo!
It appears you failed to note the "because of gender" part, which is the salient point. Also, that's just you admitting to your shitty (or stupid, pick one) behaviour.
lol, no. Speak for yourself.
Was it because he was a guy? Did you per chance gloss over the "because of gender" again?
Don't even what? This happens all the time.
Rather than people only reading certain posts and getting mis-information and mis-interpretations from exchanges, let's summarize something that we should all, hopefully agree with:
Sexism is a real thing that affects countless women, especially in the gaming sphere. Despite how we might see how this should or shouldn't be solved, or how the author uses weird terminology, it certainly is a dire problem that affects many women and needs to be fixed in our (gaming) communities.
Sexism is a real thing that affects countless women, especially in the gaming sphere. Despite how we might see how this should or shouldn't be solved, or how the author uses weird terminology, it certainly is a dire problem that affects many women and needs to be fixed in our (gaming) communities.
TaroYamada
Member
One of the philosophies of privilege, even mentioned in this thread (see below), is the idea that when claims of negative personal experiences are made, people with positions of supposed privilege are then able to write those negative experiences off:
Since you appear to embrace privilege as a concept I find it interesting that you're so prepared to write off his experience being stalked by a female. On the rather racist and sexist grounds you've just used. This goes back to what others are saying in this thread, like Doc Seuss. You don't know his experiences, I don't even know if he's a white male but assuming he is; according to you anyways, his views don't matter on the topic explicitly due to his sex, race & gender identity.
That's only when it's used as part of political vernacular.
I'm using it this way: https://www.google.com/search?q=right&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hpIn this case moral, not legal.
soulassssns
Banned
blitzcloud
Banned
agreed.
I'd rather have it on the everyday life context though, as it would inherently fix the gaming community display of sexism.
Although let's take something into account. Some studies (or at least one i've read somewhere while looking for positive sexism) have revealed that some women like the attention coming from their gender. So how do you universally fix something that isn't universal?
"'Benevolent sexism', where women are treated as helpless entities in need of protection, is seen in a positive light by many - particularly those women with a strong sense of entitlement.
The results appeared in a study conducted by researchers at the University of Auckland and titled The Allure of Sexism: Psychological Entitlement Fosters Women’s Endorsement of Benevolent Sexism Over Time."
None of them liked hostile sexism though.
We do. It's called Kindergarten. Clearly, it isn't sufficient.
Guess you never played Uno on Live.
Then it's just as amorphous as the description.That's only when it's used as part of political vernacular.
I'm using it this way: https://www.google.com/search?q=right&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
In this case moral, not legal.
You used the Civil Rights as a comparison, which was a battle over legal situations, such as segregation. You can understand my confusion then.
for the 'Birth and Death' section those aren't societal, those are biological issues. Males have a the truncated chromosome so all lethal and problematic mutations on the X chromosome will affect boys more than girls.
For the 'k-12' section, that is the societal push to make men more risk prone than girls. A lot of it is involved with the value placed on risk takers. This results in the high mortality at that age too. Teenage guys get themselves killed with a combination of a social value on risk and a over estimation of their own abilities. yes in fact that very shitty.
the 'Special Education' section relates back to the XY chromosome issue as does the 'Disabilities' segment along with the social valuation on risk.
The 'Higher Education' section is related to the fact Men have many opportunities to make a living without education while women have less. In my area most my male friends make the same as me at the same age and most don't have post secondary. This are pays a premium for trades and hard labour. My wife makes 70% of what I do with more education.
The suicide numbers are also misleading; equal numbers of men and women attempt suicide but women are much worse at it. Probably because the hollywood wrist slitting technique isn't very good but it's the most common in media for girls while guys tend to suck on shotguns and jump off tall things which is much more effective.
The court system is harsher on men by the same logic which makes women life harder. The idea is men are capable and rational agents. Their crimes are all their own. Women are weaker and irrational, their crimes are situation. It's bullshit and most of the same people trying to press for equal treatment for women would agree that bullshit and needs to change.
The health outcomes for men is often also because men are taught to endure pain and hardship so they will seek medical attention less. The statistic comes mostly from that but you are right in that the same bullshit logic that leads to women being treated as dumb baby makers in need or protection also treats men as expendable sperm donors. Both these things need to change.
As for being poor, the statics are that minorities like me and women like not me get less returns for the same effort. No matter where you start for the same academic achievement, same professional achievement I will get that job at least 25% less because of a last name and be passed on for promotion with the same work record 25% less. Women have a slightly larger disadvantage and ethic women compound the two disadvantages. Minorities tend to come from lower economic situations as well.
As for you being poor, my upbringing is similar. My parents were immigrants. I know what real hungry feels like and the poverty line was above me for most of my life. I know the feeling.
Starting or being poor is a disadvantage I share with you. I got out only because my parents are willing to work insane 80h weeks at min wage to give me a better shot at things and I have the 'priviledge' of being able bodied and as intellectual average enough to complete university.
Physical disability is much worse than being ethnic. Being black is worse for your career than being Asian. Being and Asian male or a Black female is much worse for your dating life than being a White male. Being attractive is better than being unattractive. Being rich is better than being poor. Being a girl is worse in most ways than being a guy.
Those groups have it worse and the more you stack on top of each other the worse it gets. A big part of making it better is to figure out why and trying to fix it. For instance academic feminism (not facebook feminism) is examine gender roles and thinking about them. Why is it women and children first? why should a woman be preferred for custody? why punish men more than women? all those questions need to be asked.
I don't think me or you would disagree on solutions but I think you resent 'being blamed' but I'm not trying to blame you. It's not a white males fault, it's the collective funny ideas we all have in our heads fault. So when talking about 'privilege' it's the situation not the people.
flatearthpandas
Member
I'm sorry, but the "I don't see race" angle is bull. It doesn't mean immediately bowing and scraping to everyone who's part of a disadvantaged group, but you cannot ignore the societal factors that perpetuate disadvantage if you actually want things to get better. You absolutely should treat everyone with equal respect, but pretending that pervasive, systematic discrimination is water under the bridge is flat out wrong.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not talking about giving more respect to any certain group, I'm talking about weaving your knowledge of privilege and oppression into how you practice respect. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone goes through the same things. You have to recognize difference (whether or not you agree with the social barriers that make "difference") and work to respect all different people.
Is it just a coincidence that a tweet from the OP shows up in the first 30 seconds of this video? That's one hell of a coincidence.
The article is fantastic at making clear the distinction between having privilege and making people feel guilty for having it.
I'm a super-privileged white male, and wholly own up to that fact. I was brought up in a family that gave me a lot of advantages, from the very beginning. Not just being male, but having a good public school district, going to a good university, getting a great job, etc.
There was a hell of a lot of work involved along the way, and many of my friends who were just as privileged didn't work as hard, and are thus not doing as well now despite that privilege.
Do I feel guilty about it? Absolutely not. Should anyone else? Absolutely not.
But at least be fully aware that it exists, and stop trying to equate your hardships with everyone else to try to prove you aren't privileged. Especially if you are a white male playing games (or whatever else in your life). Recognizing when you are privileged increases empathy, helps you improve your own life further, and also helps you make sure you don't make the lives of the less-privileged worse.
It also helps ensure that people don't think you're a total dick.
I'm a super-privileged white male, and wholly own up to that fact. I was brought up in a family that gave me a lot of advantages, from the very beginning. Not just being male, but having a good public school district, going to a good university, getting a great job, etc.
There was a hell of a lot of work involved along the way, and many of my friends who were just as privileged didn't work as hard, and are thus not doing as well now despite that privilege.
Do I feel guilty about it? Absolutely not. Should anyone else? Absolutely not.
But at least be fully aware that it exists, and stop trying to equate your hardships with everyone else to try to prove you aren't privileged. Especially if you are a white male playing games (or whatever else in your life). Recognizing when you are privileged increases empathy, helps you improve your own life further, and also helps you make sure you don't make the lives of the less-privileged worse.
It also helps ensure that people don't think you're a total dick.
way more
Member
The real racists are the ones that acknowledge racism exists?
What if you already treat people with respect and encourage that behavior in others but are nonetheless lumped in with people who don't simply because of your gender?
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
lol, I forgot about that actually.
1) It's definitely my stupid behavior.It appears you failed to note the "because of gender" part, which is the salient point. Also, that's just you admitting to your shitty (or stupid, pick one) behaviour.
lol, no. Speak for yourself.
Was it because he was a guy? Did you per chance gloss over the "because of gender" again?
Don't even what? This happens all the time.
2) I see that happen all the time, in a number of different social situations. Most notably, when non hobbyist gamers try to relate to me because they played Mario a ways back.
3) Stupid people are stupid. I've never seen anyone with half a brain make that correlation before.
4 - but should be 3) He was stalked because he had someone become obsessed with him. I'd be willing to put money down that a female gamer that has been stalked isn't solely on the basis of their gender. It might be a catalyst, but they're not going to have stalkers unless they have other very redeeming qualities, be it their general affect/personality or physical attributes.
Basically what the second half of what I was arguing.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Now I have an urge to quote Colbert...
Good post.
It's not difficult to admit you are privileged. I don't know why people feel so defensive. I have straight white cis privilege and don't feel ashamed or threatened or defensive about it. Jeez.
I'm saying the list in the OP should be rights afforded to everyone, not privilege. I haven't said anything super profound besides that.
The Civil Rights Movement was also about attitudes/moral rights towards race, not simply legal rights.
Riposte
Member
That's the best privilege/advantage of all. Free of resentment, until something else makes you feel like a victim (e.g., economic status, ugliness).
Nymphae
Banned
Uh, wow.
She tries to speak over him to say "as a white male your opinion is invalid", which he ignores and continues saying what he was saying.
After he finishes talking, he says, ok so what were you going to interrupt me with? She says, oh just that you're white so you can't understand what I'm saying. (Also you'll notice not two minutes later she says white men like to talk over her. Um, ok?)
When he calls her opinion stupid, she loses it and takes her ball home. She states she refuses to have any sort of discourse about it. The guy basically ignores her and says, explain yourself, to which she again says I'm not talking about this. The guy handles it beautifully and just immediately says " ok well thanks for coming on the show!", cut to her, she rudely says nothing, and gives the camera a horrible eyebrow raise, that's it. No goodbye, no thank you for having me on and giving me and my blog/twitter feed more exposure. Just fuck you for being a white male who wanted to talk about racism.
She basically says, "look, I don't expect you to understand anything, and dont think you are even capable of talking about this, because of the colour of skin you were born with." THAT is patronizing.
Yes, it should be an expected, common sense thing -- but it always isn't. You'd be surprised how many people don't get treated respectfully in their day-to-day lives because of whatever minority group they belong to, and that others (the privileged) take that common decency for granted and as the norm (not an exception that only they enjoy). Perfect example is the history of law enforcement treating minorities very poorly and the shock of white people who never realized such a thing happened, always assuming that cops naturally treat everyone with respect, that it's "just a few bad apples" and not a systemic problem. Such people suddenly become aware of privileges that had been invisible to them their entire lives that others don't have.
A lot of people in this thread are basically railing against the list because they miss the painfully obvious point being made in this comic.
blitzcloud
Banned
the good thing about this comic is that it can be interpreted in different ways. What's yours?
How is this right enforced? By otherwise moral people looking down upon someone who tarnishes this right? If that's the case, then they are already rights.
What I'm saying is, moral/ethical people already know that having these prejudices or making broad sweeping generalizations is amoral and wrong. What is the difference between this and a moral right?
It's a privilege that it doesn't happen to some people. But until humanity progresses to some Star Trek level of social equality, it seems highly unlikely that those prejudices and instances of idiocy won't exist.
If it still happens, then is it a right? Where's the goalpost here?
This is why I assumed you meant a legal right. Anything else is either a) already the case, or b) so intangible that it's not worth chatting about.
no, a person that gives a person a crutch to an able bodied pseron, is just as bad as the racist. I am not going to give anyone that doesn't need it a crutch. it can cause the person to rely on it and not step out on their own. I am not saying that racisim doesn't exist. i am just saying I am not going to give anyone a pass due to it. or any other circumstance a person had to overcome.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
The idea behind that is that since you're a man, you don't have to worry about how sexism might affect or harm you on any given day. You don't have to walk down the street and worry about getting harassed cause your skirt is too short, or cause your skirt is too long, or cause you're smiling, or cause you're not smiling, etc. That's not to say that you don't get shit on the street, or that you don't face other forms of oppression. It also doesn't mean that you might not worry about how the women in your life have to deal with sexism. It just means that as a man, you can go about your daily business and reasonably assume you won't be harmed because of your gender.
Being white on average means you probably grew up richer than being black. Not having an ethnic name also means you get called more often for interviews. Being not a black female or Asian male also means dating is easier. Being asian also means you won't be as likely to be promoted. Being white also means you're not likely going to grow up in the projects.
It's not that being a white guy grants you banknotes, blowjobs and bentleys; it just that there are disadvantages you're not facing like the OP points out about girls in the gaming scene.
I think you feel 'blamed' but the whole situation is about as much your fault as it is mine or my wife's. Negligible. It's not white males fault. It's just a situation that white males are screwed over by least by. The solution is awareness that there is a problem and maybe stuff like gender/race blind hiring. Try and look at the resume not the name for call backs and understand a lot of our funny ideas could be wrong. A friend of mine is a lesbian, she doesn't ever want any kids but her boss treats her like she could be spitting babies out any minute which delayed her promotion. That should change.
However the static is misleading. BOTH genders get into situations which lead to them attempting suicide equally but Males are just better at the execution.
I really don't get how that image has anything to do with his list.
blitzcloud
Banned
Murder. She Wrote
Member
So, without really reading the article, you come in here and tell everyone that the problems women face listed in the article are insignificant? That the problems women (IN THIS VERY THREAD) say they have to deal with are insignificant?
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
You're confusing the goal with the reality. The goal is to getting everyone to have the same privileges to the point that it can't be called a privilege anymore. And this is obviously done by giving these privileges to everyone.
It almost seems like people are thinking that the implication is we need to kick men down to put them on equal footing instead of raising women up, and that's just obviously not what anyone is saying.
This is really off topic, but there's instances where you need an outside hand to step in to change things.
For example, if you took people from one continent, enslaved them, then created laws that lasted hundreds of years that would stunt their cultural and socio-economic growth, it makes a lot of sense to actively change that from outside of the group.
You don't one day say "well, good luck, sorry about fucking your shit up for a really long while" and walk away. There needs to be restitution.
Quick tip for those who are angry that this article exists, or some of the content within it:
Are you getting defensive? If you are, the fact that you're getting defensive implies that you assumed that the article was attacking you for your privileged, which confirms you admit you're privileged in some way.
Now that that's settled, step back for a moment. Why are you defensive? The article isn't attacking you for your privilege. It's just pointing out that it exists, which will help you make things better for everyone else. Just calm down a bit will you?
Are you getting defensive? If you are, the fact that you're getting defensive implies that you assumed that the article was attacking you for your privileged, which confirms you admit you're privileged in some way.
Now that that's settled, step back for a moment. Why are you defensive? The article isn't attacking you for your privilege. It's just pointing out that it exists, which will help you make things better for everyone else. Just calm down a bit will you?
way more
Member
Do you view being denied home or car loans, denied employment, being denied a place to vote as hindrances?
It's possible but even so; some portion of the guys who off themselves just wanted some attention too i'd presume. It sucks either way. Mental health needs more funding. PTSD for soldiers is probably a big cause of suicides on the male side and help there is tragically under funded.
- Status
Similar threads
- Poll