That’s still most of the class though…
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PlayStation 5 Pro Could Be the Best Place to Play Multiplatform Games With Bad PC Ports; There Will Be No Reason to Use FSR Over PSSR
bender
What time is it?
Performance in VR games was, but 4K and HDR, as you mentioned, were the easy things to market to the masses. I'm just not sure improved Ray Tracing and PSSR will have the same draw and that's without factoring in the price point. You were engaged in a discussion about the comparison, ask for advantages, and when responded to call it "silly" which is odd.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Maybe you do this. The greater market builds or plays on PCs that don't have these features though and most of them are playing on devices weaker than a PS5 let alone Pro.
More lies and now personal attacks... seems like someone is angry that they've lost this argument.
Try irony...
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
He said "a lot more to offer", then only mentioned 4K. I even helped out by adding in HDR, but that was all. The implication was there was a lot more when that simply wasn't true.
PS5 Pro offers additional ray tracing performance and a huge boost to AI upscaling. In a nutshell.
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
Console isn't only PS5 but the vast majority of console players have either a PS5 or an XSX which are equivalent in performance.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
The vast majority of console players have PS1, PS2, PS3, PS4.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
....Okay buddy... the nurses will be in to see you soon.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Yeah, and why does this matter? Does it mean you cannot customize your build to your liking on PC? Do others buying PCs somehow invalidate my point?
Oh, really? Then explain this (that you conveniently ignored like the little dishonest hypocrite you are).
When the fuck did I pretend that the 4090 is representative of the general market?
And this was another post of yours addressed to me. Once again, when the hell did I ever say that the PS5 Pro is too expensive but the 4090 is worth it?
"Lost the argument" You've been getting thrashed left and right and all you've been doing are a bunch of nonsensical deflections. I make a post to highlight that you can build a PC the way you want, but that with a console, you get what you get, and then you answer the post with a bunch of completely unrelated drivel. "bu bu but frame generation is only for RTX 40 cards." Okay, so? Does something forbid people from buying an RTX 40 series card?
I'm merely getting annoyed because I find your hypocritical and nonsensical style of argumentation full of fallacies frankly irritating.
An easier word for your 3rd-grade reading comprehension.
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bender
What time is it?
I'm not downplaying the PS5 Pros capabilities and it's simple for us to understand, but probably more difficult for Sony to market and gain traction with general audiences. PS4 Pro didn't need "a lot more to offer", it just needs a key driver and with the adoption of 4K televisions, PS4 Pro had that. That's the point I'm making. It will be interesting to see how the Pro performs relative to its' predecessor.
Bojji
Member
Jump from 1080p to 4k with HDR was probably bigger than from 1440p with insomniac reconstruction to 1440p with pssr reconstruction...
(Outside of final fantasy that have regular PS4 level of image quality on PS5 - this game show really big difference)
Of course native 4k was rarity on PS4 pro but many games had (sometimes really good) 4k CB or just 1440p that still looked much better than native 1080p on 4k sets.
I think difference between PS4 and PS4 pro was bigger for common users.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
But you are arguing something that has nothing to do with the discussion I was having. I get it, but it's irrelevant information.
The entire point of my question to him was curiosity of features, because I didn't remember any outside of the two I mentioned. And I was right. Thus, there's nothing left to discuss, which is why he and I moved on.
digdug2
Member
I'm glad someone gave you gold, because you're doing God's work. Your comparisons speak volumes.Someone gave me Gold, I really appreciate it but please don't
PSSR is excellent at blending alpha test textures such as fur and foliage, removing most of the dithering artifacts
saintjules
Gold Member
Bojji
Member
So far there are 0 users of consoles that have pro level of power and consumer base will be just few million in next 2 years. So how is this important again? There are millions of pc users with GPUs more powerful than PS5 already.
digdug2
Member
I will admit, I got a little feisty due to the little brother "Mom says that you have to let me play with you guys" energy. Not my proudest moment.It's heating up in here
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bender
What time is it?
You both were talking about adoption rate, so marketing is hardly irrelevant.
saintjules
Gold Member
I hear ya. I will say that using the ignore button really helps. I've done that and it helps keep your sanity lol.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
No. I simply questioned (and discussed) featuresets. I said nothing about adoption rate or expectation of sales.
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digdug2
Member
I am trying my darndest not to block anyone and try to empathize with them. Sometimes it just can't be done. Lil' bro Roddy has been ignored, good suggestion.
By the way, that Richard photo is absolutely hilarious and made me laugh out loud pretty good. Thank you for that.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
You think that Rift Apart is going to be the best showcase of the PS5 Pro? It already isn't and the Pro hasn't even launched yet.
FF7 Rebirth looks tremendously better on Pro than base PS5. Yet you're already excluding it because it doesn't make a convenient argument for you. I'm not sure if the PS4 Pro has any games that are improved to the level of FF7 Rebirth...
You think PSSR can only upscale from 1440p?
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Is this the best you have? That the PS5 Pro isn't out yet? lol...
digdug2
Member
I'm with you completely. I cannot believe how big of a boost that FF7R has had. To go from a blurry mess to the level of clarity that it now shows is just insane. I really think that it's going to help all games that need a boost, officially enhanced or not. On the Road to PS5, Mark Cerny stated that, "A rising tide lifts all boats". That 100% applies here.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Not to mention the percentage of games that run with Dynamic Resolution with 60 fps modes this generation compared to last. Or games with uncapped framerates and VRR support...
I get why they're upset, but this is a much better generation for Pro machines, especially if a lot of older games get PSSR upgrades over FSR.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Again the little hypocrite. The RTX 40 series cards are already out and have been for over 2 years, yet you took issue with my post and said the following:
The greater market doesn’t have a PS5 Pro either. So what’s your point?
And then this gen:
Your idea that PS5 = Pro is simply a lie…but wait, you never ever implied that, did you? Neither did I imply that everyone has an RTX 40 card or that the 4090 is representative of the greater market.
But at that point, I see that you’re either far too slow or too dishonest to argue in good faith, maybe both. Whatever the case, I’m done schooling your ass.
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“It’s almost a generational difference really”
“They’re doing 4K60, 4K Output Quality Mode”
“Now with RT during gameplay” (every RT effect I’ve included below is during 4K60 output on Pro there are no RT effects during gameplay on base)
Both
DDGI : Dynamic Diffuse Global Illumination
Added with Pro
RTAO: Raytraced Ambient Occlusion
RTR: Raytraced Reflections
RTOR: Raytraced Opaque Reflections
Improve Anisotropic Filtering
8K mode
4K120 Mode
Were you the poster who said that most devs would just slap in PSSR and call it a day, with framerate stability being improved by happenstance?
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HogIsland
Member
yep, this is one of the reasons why bespoke consoles can't survive long term. it's better for everyone if PC gaming just expands to provide the living room, console experience. it helps the kid with the hand-me-down potato laptop, the ROG Ally owner, and the PCMR sickos. there's just one big install base that keeps growing around the world. it never resets to 0.
the economics of developing AAA games for a brand new console don't work. if you try to utilize all the new power to deliver a generational jump in experience, you minimize the addressable audience.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Before I put you back on ignore...
- You have made several statements suggesting that people choose PC because of features only available in a small percentage of builds
- The RTX 40 series cards have been out for over 2 years and they still represent a small percentage of PC players yet PCMR equates PC with RTX 40 series
- No one will equate PS5 Pro with PS5, the vast majority of owners will still be on PS5 vs Pro the difference between me and you is that I'm not going to imply that because the PS5 Pro is out that all PS5 owners somehow get benefits from the PS5 Pro
- The original argument of this thread is that the PS5 Pro might become the best place to play games and the argument has merit
- You get a 4070 like device for significantly less money, putting the PS5 Pro well above 90% of PC builds
- You get console specific advantages like not having shader stutter, giving it an advantage of the 10% of builds that have performance advantage but are also still significantly more expensive than the PS5 Pro
If I dropped a 4070 build in your lap that included a controller for 700 dollars, you would call it a steal and that's what the PS5 Pro is, a steal. A complete no-brainer for core gamers.
FrankWza
Gold Member
MikeM
Member
I have both. My main reasons are:
1. Games that I enjoy from PS take year(s) to come to PC. Still waiting for Rebirth, GT7 and Stellar Blade.
2. All my friends play on console. Yes crossplay but they only ever check their system- level friends list, not in-game. If I want to play with them, I need to jump there. Plus, party chat at the system level is far more reliable and you can shut crossplay to create an even playing field.
3. Trophy hunting. Steam ain’t got shit on that.
4. PC can have dumb issues. For example, Windows over-wrote my GPU driver recently. Had to reinstall after troubleshooting. Also have a periodic issue where one of my SSDs isn’t detected, requiring a reboot. Console just works.
5. Physical games. Online goes down? Disc is all I need to play. I can also sell my disc.
Topher
Identifies as young
No wait on PS games, trophies and physical are my primary reasons as well.
digdug2
Member
That's the most exciting part for me. Just about every game will see a boost in resolution, framerate, and in many cases, both. That alone is cause for celebration for me. And VRR! There will be so many games now that don't have official VRR that will now fall under the system-wide 48-120 range now with frame boost. I am excited to check out the PS5 version of Elden Ring again, as an example.
Bojji
Member
Pro isn't out yet (0 user base) and you are saying that people that had hardware better than PS5 since at least 2020 are irrelevant...
And I'm not ignoring FF, it's just the most extreme example compared to the rest.
Both GT and F1 are actual interesting updates, they do stuff with the new hardware while rest of devs are just slapping pssr into their games. You can check my post history to see what I said about gt7 and f1 - this is what I expect from PS5 pro and we will see how many developers will deliver.
Rest of them are doing lazy updates at the moment.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
No, I made statements suggesting the reason people build PCs is to customize their experience. Want me to take this a fucking step further? DLSS is available on the majority of PC cards and it's a bigger selling point than even frame generation, yet your ass didn't address it and only picked out frame generation because you're dishonest like that. Irrelevant what percentage of builds are using. I can say "You can build a $3000 high-powered rig", what does it matter that most people don't?
The Pro isn't out at all and only will represent a fraction of the user base. Who gives a shit? The fact that people choose to buy RTX 3060 over 4090s is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making: people build PCs because they customize them to do what they want them to do. Mods? Emulation? Playing old-as-shit games from the 80s and 90s? MMOs and MOBAs not on consoles? The list goes on.
I didn't imply this. Jesus Christ this shit you're doing is beyond annoying. You say you will put me on ignore when I should have done that to your ass a long time ago. Stop fucking putting words in my mouth and read and try to comprehend what you read. It can't be that damn hard.
Yes, and the single biggest advantage is, you can build whatever PC you want to suit your needs. With PS5, you got one, soon to be two choices. Is that so hard to understand? I gave the Wukong as an example of a PC that does exactly what someone needs. Time and again I have seen users on Gaf lament that X game would be perfect for a 40Hz mode, but it doesn't have it. That's not a problem on PC. You're much less at the mercy of the developers. Will GameScience release a Wukong patch for the Pro or leave it in the sorry state it is on PS5? With a PC, you can circumvent a lot of issues.
As if I gave a shit if you put me on ignore. You'd do me a favor. I'm this close to flaming you, but I won't do it. Cheers.
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MikeM
Member
I know I’m probably an old man now but I still value going to the game store, buying games off the shelf, holding the case, talk gaming with the employees etc… something that is non-existent on PC/digital only world. Something that died in the movie side when Blockbuster and all them closed down.
digdug2
Member
The difference between PS5 Pro and PS5 Quality is night and day.
This may sound like a goofy comparison, but it reminds me of the Dark Souls II announcement. The lighting and contrast in that announcement had me so hyped, because I thought the future was here... and then we got that absolutely nerfed release. To this day, I have been waiting for a game with lighting and shadows comparable to the DS2 initial reveal and over 10 years later we have finally arrived at that point.
Edit: in case anyone forgot, here is a comparison of the difference between what was promised and what we got.
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
Listen to yourself man...
Pro isn't out but even when the pro does come out it won't represent the PS5. No one is making that argument. The same is not true on the PC argument.
You're ignoring FF because it's TOO good... thinking that the games that come out the next 4 years aren't going to push the base PS5 further than Rebirth... that many of these games will be built AROUND the PS5 Pro from the start and not just after the fact...
Getting Pro games from existing games is great but what is most exciting is the next 4 years of games.
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pasterpl
Member
Question is are the games running at the same settings, in ratchet and clank video comparison they even say that fidelity is not max as they had to decrease some settings to match ps5 pro. Most of comparisons focuses on PSSR VS DLSS and sometimes FSR (which sort of doesn’t make sense as it is the only one out of these 3 not being AI).
Topher
Identifies as young
Perhaps if Steam takes on consoles with their Steam OS then PCs might become a viable option in the living room, but as it is, the vast majority are not going the PC route. Not sure how it is "better for everyone" either way.
What is different about the "economics" of developing AAA games for consoles vs PCs? Consoles are based on PC tech.
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
It doesn't matter if it is max, what matters is apples and apples comparisons, which are difficult but you try to make things as like for like as you can.
There are generally two ways of going about that one is smarter than the other.
You can benchmark image quality or you can benchmark framerate.
In scenario A you set both devices to a known constant i.e. 60 fps and you compare which one has better image quality without dropping frames. This is not the best way of going about it.
In Scenario B you set the visual settings to essentially the same and see which device can give you better frames if uncapped.
This is the best test and a test which DF hasn't done yet despite you know that kind of being their thing.
Let me give you an example.
Let's say Rift Apart on a 4060 with "Ps5 Pro performance like settings" runs at 50 FPS on PC. That tells you that the 4060 isn't powerful enough to deliver in line with the PS5 Pro.
So you move on to the 4070. Maybe the 4070 runs at 65, 70, or 75 fps... That tells you that the 4070 is outperforming the PS5 Pro by 8% or 25% or whatever it is.
This allows people to make an informed decision as to what version of a game they want to play and where and whether one hardware is worth buying or not for its given price.
I can tell you now that if the 4070 doesn't significantly outperform the PS5 Pro on the same games, that's going to be a massive win for Sony and PSSR.
Zathalus
Member
Does this matter? There are more PCs with GPUs out there that are as powerful as the PS5 or more. Almost 70% GPUs on Steam can use XeSS/DLSS with every single one of those able to use frame generation thanks to FSR3. If restricting the argument to DLSS frame gen alone, that is already almost 23% of GPUs. As for the Pro, roughly 12% of the GPUs on Steam match or exceed it, which equates to more GPUs than the Pro will likely sell across its entire lifetime, and that is before the Pro has even launched to market.
These are not insignificant numbers, going by the latest Steam user counts that equals to 130 million GPUs that can use XeSS/DLSS, with 45 million being able to use DLSS frame generation. Pro+ PCs make up 23 million already. Features available in a small percentage of builds is simply not true, most PC gamers can use DLSS/XeSS and even if you restrict the definition of frame generation to DLSS only (but why would you?), that's almost a quarter of users.
It always happens. People act like there’s no new GPUs and CPUs that will come out to make pssr look obsolete. Once them 5 series GPUs come out it will be back to square one.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Oh, it does to his ilk. The absolutely moronic defense they love to use. "bu bu but, only 1% of PC gamers have a 4090", so does that stop the 4090 from existing? Is there a law prohibiting its purchase? You can see how utterly dishonest he was replying to my post. I highlighted the advantages of a custom build that gives the player more freedom, this kid answers that most people don't have an RTX 40 card to use DLSS Frame Generation. So fucking what lol?
Don't tell them that the PS4 Pro only accounted for around 13 million of the total PS4 sales and that it came in after 3 years, not 4, and at a significantly lower price than the Pro. There are already roughly 13 million users with RTX 4070-class cards or above already.
That's all besides the point though because this argument just seeks to invalidate the existence of high-end rigs and it's dumb as shit, just like going "but the PS5 Pro will only account for around 10-15% of all PS5s" would be equally stupid.
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
I counted 8% Mr Wayne...
You realize FSR3 is also on consoles right?
The PS5 is right up there with a 2070 Super. Not sure where you got your math on 70% being able to use XeSS/DLSS, but assuming your math was better on your PS5 Pro equivalent or better cards, that still doesn't mean they're at or above the quality of the base PS5.
Most Steam users are still on video cards weaker than a PS5, which is fine, but what so much of the argument surrounding PC is that games run better on PC, which is misleading. They run better on PCs with hardware more advanced that the PS5, but the majority of gamers running PCs have worse hardware and the ports on PC tend to be worse albeit many have options that allow the better hardware to take advantage of the power difference.
PS5 Pro refreshes the alignment on power vs price. I'm willing to bet the PS5 Pro outsells the 4070, 4080, and 4090 desktop cards and their AMD equivalents and even when that happens people aren't going claim benefits for the PS5 that are exclusive to the PS5 Pro.
I’m not being cheeky, nor attempting to be a brat: for a PC gamer I feel you are seriously under evaluating what the jump in hardware power and ease of implementation that a more powerful SKU can achieve.
The vast majority of mid to high end software tends to sell much more on consoles than on PC. The vast majority of said software is also released on PC with advanced features. Keeping in mind INI settings exist, and RT/AI ML has been a massive selling point for PC. The beefing up is a big selling point. Especially when a PS5 Pro offers more performance than a ton of PC builds, and at a lower cost. What else… multiple devs have stated that these PS5 Pro patches for existing games under represent the power and what they will be able to do (time and man power is extremely limited due to likely ROI and technical reasons) versus games that are in active development. In terms of economic incentives a recent study showed that PlayStation gamers have the highest income of all console gamers.
It’s frankly implausible to suggest most devs will only slap PSSR in and call it a day.
Actually I thought of another reason why PS5 Pro will do more than you are currently suggesting. The 100% accurate leaks for PSSR/PS5 Pro all stated that the Ms cost of PSSR will be noticeably decreased in future updates.
Finally, and this is worth mentioning because as DF would say (my lord what have I become) “there’s no free lunch with upscalers/DLSS”. PSSR is currently (at least as of the leaks) locked to 4K output without DRS at present. With future updates you can also target a lower output resolution and realize a wider performance window with DRS allowing an output below 4K. Even more savings.
Day 2 of post anesthesia insomnia wooooooo
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
And wait until you see the pricing on the 50 series GPUs... It's always going to come down to cost vs performance... I don't think anyone is out there claiming that the PS5 Pro is going to outperform a 5070 but what we know is it's going to be considerably cheaper and I'm willing to be more people will buy a PS5 Pro than a 5070.
