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Pokémon Community Thread 2: "This is the Real Power of Johto..."

I

injurai

Banned
I'd put him on my team

s6bnl3q.jpg
 
C

ColtraineGF

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
Guys, am I weird for not liking the Red battle?
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You mean the song? (GSC)(HGSS)(BW2)

In that case, I would probably say that I'd agree in that it's not my favorite "last battle" music - something like the RBY one in it's many forms would be it probably (FRLG version is cool as welll, BW version *might* be my favorite since I am biased towards its style).

It's not my least liked "champion music" though (that would be the BW Adler one).
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
ColtraineGF said:
You mean the song? (GSC)(HGSS)(BW2)

In that case, I would probably say that I'd agree in that it's not my favorite "last battle" music - something like the RBY one in it's many forms would be it probably (FRLG version is cool as welll, BW version *might* be my favorite since I am biased towards its style).

It's not my least liked "champion music" though (that would be the BW Adler one).
Click to expand...

No, I mean the battle itself. I think it's overrated.

Best Champion music is Iris', by the way. Dat whimsy.
 
I

injurai

Banned
Pokemon gym battles are almost always a let down. No crazy new game mechanics or anything. I would love for the gameplay molds to be broken for gyms, and especially for the champion battles. Having it be like any other trainer battle (even if harder) doesn't do much for the game.
 
C

ColtraineGF

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
No, I mean the battle itself. I think it's overrated.

Best Champion music is Iris', by the way. Dat whimsy.
Click to expand...
So like, the fight itself in the game?

I would probably not be conclusive on that, since last battles have happened at different stages of my pokéxperience, and difficulty/fun is on a sliding scale for me, due to different teams I've run.

Also, darn the whimsy, more guitar/drums plz :)
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
ColtraineGF said:
So like, the fight itself in the game?

I would probably not be conclusive on that, since last battles have happened at different stages of my pokéxperience, and difficulty/fun is on a sliding scale for me, due to different teams I've run.

Also, darn the whimsy, more guitar/drums plz :)
Click to expand...

I posted this in the Controversial Opinions thread:

The Trainer Red battle at the end of Pokémon Gold and Silver wasn't very good in retrospect. It was a cheap trick meant to artificially lengthen the game's crappy second region by forcing unnecessary grinding, masked by a manipulation of the player's nostalgia for the firt game. If t were any other trainer; people would have been rather upset with the battle.

Oh, and it's usually not as "epic" as people make it out to be, as his team is kind of just garbage Pokémon at high levels and the battle will consist of one side curbstomping the other 9/10 times due to discrepancy in level.
Click to expand...

I just don't think it was that cool. If the trainer had been some random dude, people probably would have been crying foul of the game throwing in an arbitrary "last boss" just to extend its length. Plus I hate how we're never going to see a trainer with higher levels than Red now because GF doesn't want to ruin the "scale" of the battle.

It just rustles my jimmies when people praise it out the butt without stopping to consider the facts.
 
B

Berordn

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
Plus I hate how we're never going to see a trainer with higher levels than Red now because GF doesn't want to ruin the "scale" of the battle.
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I'm not disagreeing with you, but Barry's final team in Platinum were higher leveled than Red's team until HG/SS, and even then only his Pikachu outleveled most of his team. Red existing isn't stopping them from making a high leveled final battle, they just don't seem to want to.
 
W

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
injurai said:
Pokemon gym battles are almost always a let down. No crazy new game mechanics or anything. I would love for the gameplay molds to be broken for gyms, and especially for the champion battles. Having it be like any other trainer battle (even if harder) doesn't do much for the game.
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I found them far more funner if you "handicap" yourself and use the same amount of Pokemon as the Gym Leader.
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
Berordn said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, but Barry's final team in Platinum were higher leveled than Red's team until HG/SS, and even then only his Pikachu outleveled most of his team. Red existing isn't stopping them from making a high leveled final battle, they just don't seem to want to.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Still, the fact that they gave Red's levels a boost in HGSS just so he could regain his proverbial crown proves the kind of mindset GF has regarding that battle. My kingdom for a climactic boss with higher levels than Red.
 
B

Berordn

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Still, the fact that they gave Red's levels a boost in HGSS just so he could regain his proverbial crown proves the kind of mindset GF has regarding that battle. My kingdom for a climactic boss with higher levels than Red.
Click to expand...

I really think it has more to do with the length and size of the world more than trying to reign him king of levels. Ghetsis in B/W and Version 2 doesn't have a terribly high leveled team for the series, but he does outlevel most of the game (and probably your team, if you haven't been grinding Audinos) up to that point.

HG/SS smoothed out the leveling curve and gave Kanto a difficulty boost, so Red was bumped up to compensate.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Finished Black1, White2, and just got SS. These games are addicting. Before this the last game I played was the original silver.
 
C

ColtraineGF

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
I posted this in the Controversial Opinions thread:



I just don't think it was that cool. If the trainer had been some random dude, people probably would have been crying foul of the game throwing in an arbitrary "last boss" just to extend its length. Plus I hate how we're never going to see a trainer with higher levels than Red now because GF doesn't want to ruin the "scale" of the battle.

It just rustles my jimmies when people praise it out the butt without stopping to consider the facts.
Click to expand...
I would say that if Red himself is a "nostalgic manipulation" only in the sense that the entire Kanto post-game region was a "nostalgic manipulation" - every major battle in the region was a nostalgic throwback, Red isn't alone in this IMO. I mean, the whole point of GSC was that it was originally going to be a sequel - it's gonna refer to the prior game. It's nostalgic.

I also wouldn't call it a "cheap trick", it's just a battle with a high-leveled opponent - every game does this to some extent. Red happens to be 30+ levels over his peers of course, but he's still a bonus boss. It's not required to beat him to end the game, since the player has already done so essentially, 8 gym battles ago. It would have been better if everyone in the post-region were like lv. 60-70, BW/2 style, rather than 50-60, because then the player would be better prepared for the fight however.

Last, I think that GF isn't afraid to do "high-level" end bosses - they've been dipping regularly into the 60-80 region since GSC. They've got ways of making tough fights regardless of raw level, I think.

In any case, I am not hype on the last fight either.
ScraftyDevil said:
Still, the fact that they gave Red's levels a boost in HGSS just so he could regain his proverbial crown proves the kind of mindset GF has regarding that battle. My kingdom for a climactic boss with higher levels than Red.
Click to expand...
It's just numbers anyway - there are tougher battles to be found everywhere.
 
K

Korosenai

Member
I have two little cousins (5 and 7 years old), and I've been wanting to get them to play Pokemon for a while now, but they haven't been able to read very well. Just recently though, the 7 year old has been doing excellent in class and she can read books very well now (she just finished diary of a wimpy kid, her first book), so I figured it was time to introduce her to Pokemon. I cleared my soulsilver file, and now I've been letting her play it for the past hour. She is absolutely loving it, and the starter she chose was Chikorita. Seeing her play Pokemon for the first time and how much fun she is having brought a single tear my eye.
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
Nub said:
I have two little cousins (5 and 7 years old), and I've been wanting to get them to play Pokemon for a while now, but they haven't been able to read very well. Just recently though, the 7 year old has been doing excellent in class and she can read books very well now (she just finished diary of a wimpy kid, her first book), so I figured it was time to introduce her to Pokemon. I cleared my soulsilver file, and now I've been letting her play it for the past hour. She is absolutely loving it, and the starter she chose was Chikorita. Seeing her play Pokemon for the first time and how much fun she is having brought a single tear my eye.
Click to expand...

It's a beautiful sight, isn't it? I bequeathed my copy of Sapphire to my little brother 2 years ago and I went through the same process. Just wait until they ask you to beat something for them; that feeling of being the "coolest brother/cousin in the world" is something that can't be described.

ColtraineGF said:
I would say that if Red himself is a "nostalgic manipulation" only in the sense that the entire Kanto post-game region was a "nostalgic manipulation" - every major battle in the region was a nostalgic throwback, Red isn't alone in this IMO. I mean, the whole point of GSC was that it was originally going to be a sequel - it'gonna refer to the prior game. It's nostalgic

I also wouldn't call it a "cheap trick", it's just a battle with a high-leveled opponent - every game does this to some extent. Red happens to be 30+ levels over his peers of course, but he's still a bonus boss. It's not required to beat him to end the game, since the player has already done so essentially, 8 gym battles ago. It would have been better if everyone in the post-region were like lv. 60-70, BW/2 style, rather than 50-60, because then the player would be better prepared for the fight however.

Last, I think that GF isn't afraid to do "high-level" end bosses - they've been dipping regularly into the 60-80 region since GSC. They've got ways of making tough fights regardless of raw level, I think.

In any case, I am not hype on the last fight either.

It's just numbers anyway - there are tougher battles to be found everywhere.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just crazy and grumpy then. I haven't been having a great week either, so I guess I'm just venting.

UltimateIke said:
Aggro almost got swept in his Nuzlocke by a Swords Dance Zangoose. Luckily Ike the Hariyama was there to save the day.
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Ike saves people from certain disaster with his awesomeness: just another day in the life.
 
Q

qq more

Member
What the heck even prompted you to vent about that fight of all things? Lemme guess, people considered it one of their favorite/most memorable moments in gaming?
 
F

ffdgh

Member
Nub said:
I have two little cousins (5 and 7 years old), and I've been wanting to get them to play Pokemon for a while now, but they haven't been able to read very well. Just recently though, the 7 year old has been doing excellent in class and she can read books very well now (she just finished diary of a wimpy kid, her first book), so I figured it was time to introduce her to Pokemon. I cleared my soulsilver file, and now I've been letting her play it for the past hour. She is absolutely loving it, and the starter she chose was Chikorita. Seeing her play Pokemon for the first time and how much fun she is having brought a single tear my eye.
Click to expand...

Haha that is so sweet.
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
qq more said:
What the heck even prompted you to vent about that fight of all things? Lemme guess, people considered it one of their favorite/most memorable moments in gaming?
Click to expand...

What prompted me?

Haha; that's implying that my behaviour has a rational cause.

I saw a YouTube video listing him as one of the best bosses of all time with the reasoning being "Cuz it's Red!"
 
Q

qq more

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
What prompted me?

Haha; that's implying that my behaviour has a rational cause.

I saw a YouTube video listing him as one of the best bosses of all time with the reasoning being "Cuz it's Red!"
Click to expand...

There's some merit to that, though. I just don't get why you can't accept people praising that fight. I thought it was one of the coolest moments in the franchise. If you don't like it, that's fine, to each their own. People like things for different reasons than you do and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
F

ffdgh

Member
789shadow said:
Guys.

I completely forgot what is in the postgame of White 2. Help?
Click to expand...

Lake trio
heatran
crescelia
regirock/ice I think in white
latias
all the closed off areas.
White tree hollow
More pokestar goodness.
An ecounter with N if you follow zoroark in victory road.
colress rebattle
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
qq more said:
There's some merit to that, though. I just don't get why you can't accept people praising that fight. I thought it was one of the coolest moments in the franchise. If you don't like it, that's fine, to each their own. People like things for different reasons than you do and there's nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

My reasoning is that if you're going to include a character of a "best bosses" list simply by the merit of being the previous PC, there are other games that have done such battles better in both gameplay and aesthetics.

Once again; I'm not faulting people for liking it, I just don't really like it too much myself. The battle with Lance was better in my opinion because it had more buildup and you got to see a taste of his power in both the main story and R/B/Y.
 
C

ColtraineGF

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
Maybe I'm just crazy and grumpy then. I haven't been having a great week either, so I guess I'm just venting.
Click to expand...
Ehhh, it's alright, everyone has that moment.

To go slightly farther, there are different degrees of "problem", and different degrees of "blame" - where it originated, where it continues, the uniqueness of that problem, the circumstances under which it arose, and why it isn't one in certain circumstances. The level of the team is in itself irrelevant - high-level post-game/bonus bosses are an RPG staple. The problem in that case was in the opportunity to reach that level in the first place - the game didn't provide opportunities to ease one into that level range, except through a grind.

Team structure (garbage mons) is purely opinion, of course - there's a reason that team was chosen, and it follows logically from the most common scenario possible continuing form the canon Yellow version (three gift starters, Pikachu, gift Eevee, and waist-high-fence Snorlax). Curbstomping is possible in any battle, depending on the individual skill of the player - it isn't a reason for a battle being "bad", because any battle becomes easy/hard with a certain team structure

On a last note, Red is a memetic BAMF bishounen, he's gonna be cited as the best everything, despite Gold being a better battler @_@ - best boss lists are always subjective anyway.
 
N

Nocturnowl

Member
If it makes you feel any better Scrafty I concur, because i've never been bothered to grind up for it, screw that, what am I going to grind on? wild lvl 40-50 Pokemon? oh joy.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
I'd keep it as a Magikarp.

Also, I agree, Red battle is way too overrated.

Nub said:
She is absolutely loving it, and the starter she chose was Chikorita. Seeing her play Pokemon for the first time and how much fun she is having brought a single tear my eye.
Click to expand...

Nice!
 
U

Unicorn

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
I posted this in the Controversial Opinions thread:



I just don't think it was that cool. If the trainer had been some random dude, people probably would have been crying foul of the game throwing in an arbitrary "last boss" just to extend its length. Plus I hate how we're never going to see a trainer with higher levels than Red now because GF doesn't want to ruin the "scale" of the battle.

It just rustles my jimmies when people praise it out the butt without stopping to consider the facts.
Click to expand...

Uh, the point is that it wasn't some random trainer. It was his canonical team and thus tied the games together. Not really nostalgia since it was only 2-3 year difference. I just think you're being controversial because you want to be. Bending it into something that isn't significant.

Also, there's no reason to grind for it, it's an easter egg if anything since it's mostly a sidequest at the end of a bonus "dungeon."
 
K

Korosenai

Member
ScraftyDevil said:
It's a beautiful sight, isn't it? I bequeathed my copy of Sapphire to my little brother 2 years ago and I went through the same process. Just wait until they ask you to beat something for them; that feeling of being the "coolest brother/cousin in the world" is something that can't be described.
Click to expand...
Yea, I was helping her with some stuff, telling her what potions did, when to use them, etc. It was awesome.
ffdgh said:
Haha that is so sweet.
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I played my first Pokemon game when I was 7 so I figured it would be a good time for her to try it out too haha.

MikeMyers said:
Nice!
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I lurk this thread and I knew you would say something about her choice :p
 
Andrefpvs

Andrefpvs

Member
Nothing new from Smash this week, Sylveon's type appeared as '?' once again.

I don't think there'd be any reason to hide its type unless it's a new type, but this is only a weak theory so far.
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
Unicorn said:
Uh, the point is that it wasn't some random trainer. It was his canonical team and thus tied the games together. Not really nostalgia since it was only 2-3 year difference. I just think you're being controversial because you want to be. Bending it into something that isn't significant.

Also, there's no reason to grind for it, it's an easter egg if anything since it's mostly a sidequest at the end of a bonus "dungeon."
Click to expand...

You're being presumptuous. As evidenced by this thread, there are others who feel the fight is overrated and although my justification may be flawed, you can't just claim I'm saying it to be controversial or get attention. If I wanted to do either of those things, there are plenty more things I could pick on.

And yes, you do have to grind for it if you want to stand a chance. There's no way you'll be able to beat him with a post-Blue team unless you've been doing some serious levelling at some point in the game. The credits after the battle indicate that it's supposed to serve as the true ending to the game, so you can't claim it's a bonus boss and nothing else.

You're a nice guy. Please don't try to twist this into something this isn't.

@Nub:

That's awesome. I can't wait until X and Y beckon in a new generation of players!
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Yeah fuck Red. Dude doesn't talk or have any personality or anything. He's not even that great in GSC either, his Pokemon have poor movesets. Snorlax can't even touch Gastly haha.

Nub said:
Yea, I was helping her with some stuff, telling her what potions did, when to use them, etc. It was awesome.

I played my first Pokemon game when I was 7 so I figured it would be a good time for her to try it out too haha.

I lurk this thread and I knew you would say something about her choice :p
Click to expand...

Bugsy is probably the hardest fight for Bayleef, Gastly w/ Night Share or Geodude w/ Rock Throw will aid.
 
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