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Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire |OT| Hoenn Finally Confirmed
- Thread starter ColtraineGF
- Start date
entremet
Member
I just feel the genie is out the bottle until TPC/GF adjusts their game for competitive players in mind in terms of allowing easier IV spread manipulation in game for all Pokemon.
The whole every Pokemon is unique paradigm is not conducive to competitive play.
These Pokemon hackers are a persistent bunch.
They shouldn't change everything to capitulate to hackers. Hackers are going to hack regardless of how easy it is. Look at how easy it is to breed a decent IV'd Pokémon now because Game Freak did just that, but people still hack it. They should focus more on being able to track the hacks.
They actually did something monumentally stupid in this generation which would have flagged all hacks up to the time of injection as hacks if they hadn't changed it. They unlinked the PID to IVs, so Power Saves can edit IVs with no penalty. I imagine they did this in order to have set IVs in certain situations (another of their attempts to make it easier), but it was a huge mistake. If they hadn't done it, Power Saves wouldn't have the ability to recalculate the new PID for the new IVs, and it'd be flagged.
They did make it easier for legendaries anyway. They'll always have 3 guaranteed max IVs.
*sigh*
Purists, man. The one thing I dislike more than Mega Lucario users are those that try and project their "holier-than-thou" image on how the game should be played. Other people might get enjoyment out of having their Eevee spit out 100s of eggs waiting for that one shiny or resetting over and over to get a legendary with 5 perfect IVs, I find all of that legwork to be frustrating and time consuming. In my opinion, my favorite part of competitive play, other than battling, is team-building and making strategies designed around whatever constraints I have to work with. If you want to homegrow your 'mons, I won't stop you, but I would certainly rather be thinking up the next crazy strat that I could use for regionals instead of cycling around battle resort for the 10,000th time, waiting for that boy to give me another failed egg.
There's no point in banning injected 'mons unless they're carrying completely illegal moves. IMO, all powersaving does is eliminate much of the tedium that comes with trying to find a battle ready 'mon to use in your party.
entremet
Member
It's really a chicken and egg thing. If all my opponents have perfect or near perfect IVs pokemon, then if I wanna even be on their level, I need to do the same.
Other than my Perfect IV Ditto, I don't have any hacked Pokemon. I chain breed and SR, but it's very time consuming.
Here's what I love TPC/GF to do.
--Make egg cycles much shorter. Cycling is getting old, GF.
--Have an item or ability that allows you to choose the HP for a particular Pokemon kinda like Synchronize with Natures
--Make Perfect Dittos obtainable legally and easily.
--Make legendaries breedable
That's it honestly.
It is cheating. It is against the rules. If you get caught doing it, even if it's done to look legal, you will get banned from official competitions. The fact you openly admit cheating and going to Regionals is part of the problem.
This isn't a "holier-than-thou" image that I am projecting. I am just putting forth that rules should be followed and the rules CLEARLY state that you are not to use Pokémon that have been created or modified using external hardware/software. By cheating, you are violating said rules and should be banned from Battle Spot and all official competitions, as per the rules.
I'm usually against hacking my own Pokemon, but I'll admit that I been tempted to get a Thundurus via that method. That guy is such a pain in the ass to get considering how essential he is to so many teams. I'm also tired of seeing that stupid soar animation over and over again.
If I go to the dark side, you know who to blame.
If I go to the dark side, you know who to blame.
entremet
Member
I still haven't gotten mine
.I need that HP Ice. And even then you could be fucked with the bad IV spread.
I still haven't gotten mine
I need that HP Ice. And even then you could be fucked with the bad IV spread.
I gave up for now and went back to Terrakion. Dealing with Hidden Power is so maddening and frustrating.
Breeding on the other hand is a lot of fun for me. It's just so satisfying seeing something like this after a week of effort:
And it gets even better when they're all grown up and battle ready:
It just makes me feel like a proud parent that did his job right.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Did somebody say Thundurus? I'm off to cry in a corner for buying Omega Ruby so I can never SR, leaving me at the mercy of GTS (at least I knew what I was getting unlike pick Chespin, don't get Zapdos, that is like Sierra adventure game logic)
Still, I'm definitely going to leave the legendaries alone this time round (except the forced ones of course) as I've still got the ones for the other play through which were a good enough to play with but very much imperfect.
So after a long hiatus I decided to look again at the PGL number of GTS trades stats and here some results this time:
). Well, no undoing the past...
Then again I suppose Gamefreak prefer the whole grind fer yer stuff then it is rewarding mentality so standardising legendaries for all players is something that will never be seen. Grinding for eggs I'm okay with as it can give back to the community, easily trade and you can work your way up to a goal but SR legendaries is a tug of war with the game, one you have limited control over.
(at least I knew what I was getting unlike pick Chespin, don't get Zapdos, that is like Sierra adventure game logic)
let the non-cover version exclusive legendaries end.
So after a long hiatus I decided to look again at the PGL number of GTS trades stats and here some results this time:
Day 0 is when PGL first published the stats. Man I wish I had more data points as it would be interesting to know if linear is a good fit or not (it isn't weighted in any way so basically it is dominated by the fancy Vivillon era, the outlier you can see at day 40 comes from a famitsu.com article, I guess they took the image sometime before or maybe that is when the fancy Vivilion goal was announce and people went crazy for 5 miuntes...) and other behavior things like what causes surges, say. Especially annoying as day 220 is the day after Japan and US launch of release of ORAS (and trades are about 5 million behind the fit, perhaps growth slowed down after the Fancy Vivillon goal was met, but without data ...
). Well, no undoing the past...Maybe legendaries should be even more fixed IV than they are now. I remember I used to think the Gen III roaming rng bug (you know the 4*0 IV legendaries) was a balance thing. Now a legendary with all 0 IVs would be a equivalent of 15 BST lost per stat which is too much for balance and really harms their utility as it leads to things like Raikou being slower than Garchomp, not that it would HP Ice anyway (unless they finally change up HP to not use IVs which would be a good change as they could add HP Fairly, you know in case you're one of the 5 species not to learn dazzling glean who wants to use Fairy moves) so I'm not into going into that direction. Perhaps making them like N's Zorua would be the way to go (which was 100% fixed IVs 30 all round, always hasty). I know people will say is is not unique then (even if nature is exempt from rigging). But I question if they even should be, they are one of a kind legendary Pokemon.
Then again I suppose Gamefreak prefer the whole grind fer yer stuff then it is rewarding mentality so standardising legendaries for all players is something that will never be seen. Grinding for eggs I'm okay with as it can give back to the community, easily trade and you can work your way up to a goal but SR legendaries is a tug of war with the game, one you have limited control over.
I don't participate in regional competitions. I'm not saying anything about the legality of hackmons in tournaments, I'm just trying to find out who does this hurt, really. A legal Pokemon made via QR code is exactly the same as one that was bred in-game. One could feasibly obtain the same 'mon through different methods, the only difference is the effort required to achieve the same result.
Are you saying that hacking/cloning ruins the competitive game just by making legends more commonly used?
Did somebody say Thundurus? I'm off to cry in a corner for buying Omega Ruby so I can never SR, leaving me at the mercy of GTSStill, I'm definitely going to leave the legendaries alone this time round (except the forced ones of course) as I've still got the ones for the other play through which were a good enough to play with but very much imperfect.let the non-cover version exclusive legendaries end.
So after a long hiatus I decided to look again at the PGL number of GTS trades stats and here some results this time:
Day 0 is when PGL first published the stats. Man I wish I had more data points as it would be interesting to know if linear is a good fit or not (it isn't weighted in any way so basically it is dominated by the fancy Vivillon era, the outlier you can see at day 40 comes from a famitsu.com article, I guess they took the image sometime before or maybe that is when the fancy Vivilion goal was announce and people went crazy for 5 miuntes...) and other behavior things like what causes surges, say. Especially annoying as day 220 is the day after Japan and US launch of release of ORAS (and trades are about 5 million behind the fit, perhaps growth slowed down after the Fancy Vivillon goal was met, but without data ...
Maybe legendaries should be even more fixed IV than they are now. I remember I used to think the Gen III roaming rng bug (you know the 4*0 IV legendaries) was a balance thing. Now a legendary with all 0 IVs would be a equivalent of 15 BST lost per stat which is too much for balance and really harms their utility as it leads to things like Raikou being slower than Garchomp, not that it would HP Ice anyway (unless they finally change up HP to not use IVs which would be a good change as they could add HP Fairly, you know in case you're one of the 5 species not to learn dazzling glean who wants to use Fairy moves) so I'm not into going into that direction. Perhaps making them like N's Zorua would be the way to go (which was 100% fixed IVs 30 all round, always hasty). I know people will say is is not unique then (even if nature is exempt from rigging). But I question if they even should be, they are one of a kind legendary Pokemon.
Then again I suppose Gamefreak prefer the whole grind fer yer stuff then it is rewarding mentality so standardising legendaries for all players is something that will never be seen. Grinding for eggs I'm okay with as it can give back to the community, easily trade and you can work your way up to a goal but SR legendaries is a tug of war with the game, one you have limited control over.
Without data? Log into the PGL
170,547,056
Edit: Oops, you noted that in your graph haha.
No. I'm saying hacking and cloning ruins the competitive game because it's cheating
It's against the rules. Check the rules out
http://support.pokemon.com/FileManagement/Download/07294296edc545bca57c76266cef60fe
You could say that for all sports "Who does it hurt if we break the rules of the game?". The rules are there for a reason. It doesn't matter if it "doesn't hurt anyone", it's against the rules. You're not meant to do it. It is cheating.
You're going to have to give me a better example than just "It's cheating," and sports is a poor analogy, given the diverse nature of the human body. Pokemon aren't humans, they're numbers. Competitive play is about determining a player's battling skill, not how good of a breeder they are. If we wanted to ensure a completely fair game, then all Pokemon would be set to have ideal (set by the player) IVs in all categories to ensure an even contest. I don't understand the outcry over creating perfect IV 'mons because it drastically lowers the entrance barriers to competitive play. Nintendo is only saying it's wrong because it's protecting their interests.
So what did your comment about how high IV legends should be a rare occurrence mean?
Ah, but sports is actually the perfect analogy.
In sports, you are genetically set to certain things, some are faster than others and so forth and that's nature. However, you can improve your skills by training. The first is comparable to IVs and the second is comparable to EVs.
Now, steroids help people skip these things and give them an advantage. This is why they're banned in sporting events. It's the equivalent of using a cheat device to your advantage. You're skipping a core part of the game.
You are cheating. It is against the rules. If caught, you would be banned. You shouldn't try to justify it. It's cheating. Accept this.
Well it's the truth. It sucks, sure, but cheating has made it more common. If there were no cheating methods, we wouldn't see as many Thundurus/Landorus.
I disagree with that logic. Legends like Thundurus and Landorus are used a lot because they are the best at what they do. Without cheating methods they wouldn't become less common, people would just put more effort into getting them.
As it stands right now, legends are a pretty big barrier to entry for a lot of competitors because there really is no way of getting around them. Choosing to ignore them would just put you at a disadvantage. I think it's naive to think that people would just stop using them and I think it is detrimental to the competitive scene that they are so difficult to obtain.
Again, the morality argument doesn't fly here because we're dealing with numbers, not with actual human beings.
Enjoying breeding is fine. It is an aspect of the game and while it's not for everyone (I find it tedious and repetitive) I don't mind the fact that others get enjoyment out of it.
What bothers me is the number of people who think because they take the time to breed, people who don't want to waste time doing something they don't enjoy should be banned from battling, especially when such people would only be battling each other because your average competitive battler wants to be matched up with someone else who has perfect IVs so the battle is a test of battling skill. The majority of top competitive players already use Pokemon that have perfect IVs and EVs.
What I'm trying to say is, unlike sports, in competitive Pokemon, a perfect Pokemon is the baseline. In IRL sports, not everyone can have a LeBron James or a Lionel Messi, real life doesn't work that way. In Pokemon, everyone can have a perfect team. If a dedicated breeder doesn't want to take the time to make a team of perfect Pokemon to go against other battlers that may or may not have hacked to get perfect (legal) teams because of some misguided belief that it must be done "the right way" or not at all, then the only person put at a disadvantage is themselves.
Wouldn't outright banning all legendaries from official tournaments help with this? I know they already ban some stuff like Arceus, Rayquaza and Mewtwo. But this would help with leveling the playing field wouldn't it since anyone can breed for the stuff they want instead of resorting to power saves for specific legendary IV spreads and natures. I know not all legendaries have amazing stats but there are those people that find them frustrating to battle against just on the notion that it's a legendary and for it to be competitive would either take a ton of SRs or cheating, and the latter is usually the case.
It's possible but I think it would be a shame. Legends have some of the most unique type combos and abilities in the game and I wouldn't want to lose them. Not only that, but they really help to balance out some of the more powerful Mega Evolutions like Kangaskhan. I think I'd really just prefer for Gamefreak to make legends and event Pokemon as easy to obtain as breedable Pokemon. It would also be great if they gave a little more thought to game balance before introducing so many powerful new Pokemon with every release.
The rules are the rules. Hacking is in violation of the rules. You can attempt to justify it all you want, but that doesn't change that. It's astonishing that you are trying to justify it so much. If the rules of the game (for playing official competitions and online competitions) didn't say that, then this argument wouldn't be happening, but as the rules state that it's wrong to do, that means it is wrong to do.
There is no justification that makes it right.
Also, while perfect is the baseline now, it shouldn't be. It only became the baseline due to the dominance of hacking.
Again, I'm not talking about the legality of using Hackmons in tournaments, only questioning the rationale behind doing so, because it doesn't make competitive sense to put people on an uneven playing field based on the kinds of Pokemon they're able to breed. Competitive battling is about the skill of the battler, and having unevenly powerful Pokemon during competition only serves to exacerbate the randomness that comes with being forced to breed Pokemon, as well as undermines the notion that battling is a test of skill. If the game was truly fair, then we would all be able to use perfect hackmons, because it's the easiest way to ensure that everyone is on an even playing field. Forcing randomness undermines that.
Just because the Bible says something doesn't mean it's automatically the right thing to do. Context is key.
Because the game is meant to be played. You're not playing the game if you're ignoring most of the game.
Competitive battling isn't just about the skill of the battler, it's also about having the knowledge to develop and execute the Pokémon strategies, setups etc. You have to know how to create the Pokémon, how to develop it, how to train it and just hacking a perfect Pokémon is not the way it was intended to be and is only half the game. To win without having done that is a hollow victory, and is unfair to other players.
The best way to make a level battlefield is not to make everyone hack, but to make it so everyone doesn't hack.
If you want to play a truly "level" battlefield with everyone having perfect Pokémon, then as I said before, play on Showdown. If you wish to play the game, then play the game.
PreyingShark
Member
Pfft they totally don't want us to put effort into our Pookemon:
See? Going by what they say, competitive battling is only about battling and thus they really don't care if you hack your mons.
Seriously though, I think you can make an argument against Game Freak's views, but I feel that the rules are very clear cut on the matter of hacking, and that's what matters here.
They're saying exactly what I'm saying
Masuda even used the same sport analogy hahaAll he's saying is that they're making it a bit easier, which is them trying to stop hacking.
PreyingShark
Member
Yeah that's why I posted it.They're saying exactly what I'm saying
I was using sarcasm.
I would argue that the majority of the steps that go into making a competitive team are pretty unrelated to actually breeding a Perfect Pokemon. Team-building, by which I mean choosing which Pokemon to use and developing a viable strategy among said monsters is by far the most diverse and challenging aspect of competitive battling, leaps and bounds more important than breeding. The main thing that sets a casual battler apart from a world champion is their knowledge of the metagame, as well as having strategies to make their team perform as effectively against tactics devised by others. To form a strategy, all one needs is a Pokemon, its stats, and a movepool, no actual Pokemon necessary. IMO, developing a perfect Pokemon is an exercise in frustration that only keeps you at the same level or at a disadvantage with your competition.
It's not a hollow victory because it can be argued that one put just as much work into developing a competitive team, albeit in a different area. Like what Masuda said, "It’s no fun either if you say that you can’t even compete without putting in incredible amounts of work." Using Hackmons drastically lowers the barrier to entry so that everyone can have a fair shot at winning, but the best will rise based on the amount of effort they put in developing their tactics.
That's not even true though. It is totally within the rules to use Pokemon received from trades. You could just have a friend breed, catch and/or train all your Pokemon for you. The tournaments are strictly about the battling and trying to say otherwise is just untruthful.
PreyingShark
Member
@backlot: Yes, you can use Pokemon you received from trades and the like as long as they are not hacked. This is because somebody else put effort into breeding or raising the mons for you. The end result is that at one point there was effort put into obtaining the Pokemon.
Hello again,
I picked up Omega Ruby today (thanks FredMeyer sale!) but it seems my favorite Pokemon Eevee can't be caught until *after* the main game (or at least until I beat the legendaries). Would anyone be willing to trade me an Eevee? It can be one of your bad breeds...I don't care, I just want my homeboy (or girl) to play through the story with!
I picked up Omega Ruby today (thanks FredMeyer sale!) but it seems my favorite Pokemon Eevee can't be caught until *after* the main game (or at least until I beat the legendaries). Would anyone be willing to trade me an Eevee? It can be one of your bad breeds...I don't care, I just want my homeboy (or girl) to play through the story with!
Yes, but another end result is that you can play in a tournament without putting in any of that effort yourself. The idea that personally putting in time breeding and training is a prerequisite for playing in a tournament is false.
PreyingShark
Member
Yes, but not the idea that if you obey the rules then effort was put into the Pokemon by somebody. Game Freak's intent is clearly that somebody puts effort into raising the Pokemon.
This is pretty much a debate of no real consequence, though. Hacking has little to do with it.
The whole hacking debate is of no real consequence because it has no real impact on the outcomes of battles and hasn't actually effected the metagame in a detrimental way.
But anyway, I wasn't trying to make it about hacking per say. I just don't agree with the idea that competitive battling should be about raising your Pokemon to be special snowflakes with unique, imperfect stat's. Joe says "If you wish to play the game, then play the game" but perfect stats will always be "the game" in a competitive environment.
entremet
Member
Do you want one with its Hidden Ability or do you don't care about that? I could get you either.
PreyingShark
Member
It's of real consequence because of idiots who put blatantly hacked shit on the GTS.
Alternatively, it's of real consequence because of people who focus on pokeballs more than the actual tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if more people knew about Ray's balls than who won that tournament.
Eventually I'll get to the point of caring about that, so probably, but at this stage I'm indifferent.
entremet
Member
I got one for you. My FC is on my profile. Just PM when you're available. I'm on the East Coast, so I'm about to hit the sack in a few minutes.
Frostinferno
Member
So of course I forget to put in the code for the Eon Ticket in time despite setting a notification on my phone. Is it still obtainable via Spotpass or am I completely SoL?
PreyingShark
Member
Streetpass should still work for it.
I just finished building a team, I don't know how well it'll work in the long run, but I'm having fun right now. However, after spending countless hours soft resetting for legendaries, and holding up on the d-pad to hatch eggs, I can honestly say I would be just as happy with my wins if I was able to just pick the IVs and set the EVs in a menu at a fraction of the time.
All the soft resets, all the hatched eggs, all the EV training, all the BP grinding, I did all of that while watching shows or whatever. It all takes so little effort that it's not worth paying any attention too, I essentially wasn't actually playing the game for the past month. I'm able to tolerate it, but it's all a pointless time sink, one that I'm sure discourages more people from getting into competitive Pokemon than it brings in.
My main problem is with the IVs of course. EVs and BP aren't bad at all now, all of that only took me a few hours to get ready. It's just a shame that so many more hours must be spent making sure my Pokemon aren't worthless before I can start building a team.
PreyingShark
Member
I only have an issue with legendaries TBH. I can breed a team in an evening or two. It's only the legendaries that piss me off to the point where I make save back-ups in front of them. This lets me SR for them whenever I wish, allowing me to temporarily "settle" for imperfect ones that are still pretty solid so I can test them out before going for a perfect one.
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Omg, I just vomited in my mouth. I was perusing some Youtube on my phone and an advertisement from some site to buy a copy of the game with "hundreds of EV/IV/Egg Move/Battle Ready/SMOGON Pokemon" because it's so hard to train nowadays.
The only reason they are is because of hacks, though. Without it and without the ways Game Freak implemented this gen, it'd be really unlikely for people to have the Pokémon they'd have.
Excuse me?
Here's my home screen
I clearly do not pirate. How dare you?
I also don't profit on my site. Unlike other webmasters, I don't plaster my site with ads. I have two very muted adverts so the site can be self sustainable. That is all.
Just because I'm against cheating and other methods that you yourself have clearly used (as per our previous discussions) does not give you the right to say such things about me.
Someone seems rather defensive about this? Have you been using injection/Power Saves?
Cheating is cheating. It is against the rules that are set down. I don't care if people cheat unless they participate in official competitions and/or send Pokémon out on Wonder Trade/GTS. In those cases, it is absolutely wrong to cheat.
I don't understand how you can even think that.
Ok, let's say we still have the Gen IV breeding mechanics. Explain how you'd get a team of 6 Pokémon with 5 or more max IVs.