Pokemon sequel is under development for DS

Every Pokémon with Street Fighter 3-like 2D animation for each attack (15 or so for each Pokémon?) and hit. That would be the very best evolution. Make it happen. It's not like Nintendo could be short of money/time/animators. I mean seriously, this would even make a Pikachu vs Rattata battle amazing.

While typing this I couldn't believe I remember the name Rattata and even spelled it correctly.....
 
There are already people complaining that Pokemon games are too slow, adding actual Pokemon animations would make battles take forever.
And I say this as someone who has battle animations turned on and like it that way.
 
Something that makes me kind of sad about the metagame... If you know how much HP each move will deal to you, then there seems to be less excitement.

When I play Pokemon, and a particularly strong attack is dealt, watching the HP drain slowly, pixel by pixel, is an extremely intense experience. (I love when there's only one pixel left after the whole ordeal.) If I could approximate how much damage would be dealt, it wouldn't be as intense to me...
 
Why would you do that? said:
Something that makes me kind of sad about the metagame... If you know how much HP each move will deal to you, then there seems to be less excitement.

When I play Pokemon, and a particularly strong attack is dealt, watching the HP drain slowly, pixel by pixel, is an extremely intense experience. (I love when there's only one pixel left after the whole ordeal.) If I could approximate how much damage would be dealt, it wouldn't be as intense to me...
Click to expand...
I play the games pretty much the same way I did when I was 8.
 
Why would you do that? said:
Something that makes me kind of sad about the metagame... If you know how much HP each move will deal to you, then there seems to be less excitement.

When I play Pokemon, and a particularly strong attack is dealt, watching the HP drain slowly, pixel by pixel, is an extremely intense experience. (I love when there's only one pixel left after the whole ordeal.) If I could approximate how much damage would be dealt, it wouldn't be as intense to me...
Click to expand...
Not quite. People tend to only learn about the damage capabilities of specific threats to their team. Everyone knows exactly how much damage bullet punch from a Scizor will do to Salamence. Houndoom? Not so much.

EDIT: Not to mention that one guy's crazy EV spread could throw off your carefully calculated min-maxing.
 
OMG Aero said:
There are already people complaining that Pokemon games are too slow, adding actual Pokemon animations would make battles take forever.
And I say this as someone who has battle animations turned on and like it that way.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure more people would have animations on, if ya know, the battles were actually more entertaining to watch. I'm not saying it's not fun to see all the attack animations at first, it just gets real old real quick.
 
Soneet said:
Every Pokémon with Street Fighter 3-like 2D animation for each attack (15 or so for each Pokémon?) and hit. That would be the very best evolution. Make it happen. It's not like Nintendo could be short of money/time/animators. I mean seriously, this would even make a Pikachu vs Rattata battle amazing.

While typing this I couldn't believe I remember the name Rattata and even spelled it correctly.....
Click to expand...

That would be amazing but INCREDIBLY expensive. There's a reason Capcom doesn't make 2d fighters anymore and that MvC2 had a lot of recolored sprites and low animation frames. What you're asking about would be as large a task as many PS3/360 games in terms of work
 
Zoramon089 said:
That would be amazing but INCREDIBLY expensive. There's a reason Capcom doesn't make 2d fighters anymore and that MvC2 had a lot of recolored sprites and low animation frames. What you're asking about would be as large a task as many PS3/360 games in terms of work
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Well yeah, that's the point. A massive budget handheld game with the best possible franchise ever? Sounds like a good plan to me :o

But it won't happen. Look what they did with Fire Emblem 6 remake for the DS. Nintendo disgusts me sometimes :(
 
OMG Aero said:
There are already people complaining that Pokemon games are too slow, adding actual Pokemon animations would make battles take forever.
And I say this as someone who has battle animations turned on and like it that way.
Click to expand...

Dragon quest fights are pretty fast, and they have detailed animations.
 
OMG Aero said:
There are already people complaining that Pokemon games are too slow, adding actual Pokemon animations would make battles take forever.
And I say this as someone who has battle animations turned on and like it that way.
Click to expand...
Fuck those people! let them turn the stuff off.

I want Attack animations!
I want Ideal animations!
I want Hurt/ Tried/ Sleep/ raged animations!

Just like how they FINALLY got off their asses to make the "have your Pokemon follow you!" feature from Yellow and the park area apply to ALL Pokemon, they can still get off their asses for this.

And if they did a real time Pokemon I would think that they would best do it like we talked about earlier, with SSBB like gameplay with stats and what not.
 
I don't want better animations/3D graphics.

I skip them pretty soon anyway! Wasted effort/money.

Make the battles faster. DQ5 style is ideal.
 
Dogenzaka said:
They can do both, you know.
They can put in animations and then put in the option to speed them/text up, or have them skippable.
Click to expand...
Yeah, no.

I'd rather have them use those resources into something useful, like a longer single player campaign, or more pokemon.
 
Resources to make things faster or to make 3D models/animation?
Because to make things faster, well, they've already done that. You can turn off animations if you want or make text speed faster. Not much to work on in that department (please let weather effects be skippable, though).

Did you say longer campaign?

That's funny.
In fact, really funny. At least to me, who has like 300 hours in Pokemon Pearl xDD
 
ElFly said:
Yeah, no.

I'd rather have them use those resources into something useful, like a longer single player campaign, or more pokemon.
Click to expand...
. . . Guess its quality vs quantity.

I want would like for the 100 or so Pokemon they DO add along with the past one to have more to them then being static sprite art work that gets placed behind at canned attack effect then to have 300 new Pokemon that do nothing but the bare bones in terms of appealing to us as players.
 
The game had all the graphics it needed on the Gameboy. Well, the color version anyway. I am a graphic whore like that.

I don't really think the game benefits from better graphics than that until it changes the gameplay into a full real time 3D battle.

It should really be using the DS extra buttons for better purposes. It needs a dedicated bicycle button, town map button, and at least two register-able buttons. And better touch screen controls; most of the pokewatch apps on Diamond/Pearl were terrible.
 
ElFly said:
The game had all the graphics it needed on the Gameboy. Well, the color version anyway. I am a graphic whore like that.

I don't really think the game benefits from better graphics than that until it changes the gameplay into a full real time 3D battle.

It should really be using the DS extra buttons for better purposes. It needs a dedicated bicycle button, town map button, and at least two register-able buttons. And better touch screen controls; most of the pokewatch apps on Diamond/Pearl were terrible.
Click to expand...

Have you played Hg/Ss? They have many of those things and full touch screen integration
 
Soneet said:
Every Pokémon with Street Fighter 3-like 2D animation for each attack (15 or so for each Pokémon?) and hit. That would be the very best evolution. Make it happen. It's not like Nintendo could be short of money/time/animators. I mean seriously, this would even make a Pikachu vs Rattata battle amazing.
Click to expand...

:lol :lol :lol :lol That would theoretically be well over 90,000 frames of animation, and even MORE when we know how many Pokemon there are going to be (and not taking things like different forms into account.) That's more frames of animation than 6 full length Disney animated features put together. You're absolutely insane to think they would spend the time making that animation, let alone fit it all on a DS cart.
 
Hitlersaurus Christ said:
It would probably piss tons of people off, but I'd love to see them change the battle system to Smash Bros', except with HP and other stats.
Maybe as a spinoff or something.
Click to expand...

I've been crying for a game like this for over a decade. Get in line! :lol
 
cms382 said:
I play the games pretty much the same way I did when I was 8.
Click to expand...

Me too. I just take one Pokemon and power through the whole game with it, me and my starter whipping ass. I randomly try to build a team sometimes, but I'm way too obsessive and indecisive so it stops being fun and becomes a chore.
 
SovanJedi said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol That would theoretically be well over 90,000 frames of animation, and even MORE when we know how many Pokemon there are going to be (and not taking things like different forms into account.) That's more frames of animation than 6 full length Disney animated features put together. You're absolutely insane to think they would spend the time making that animation, let alone fit it all on a DS cart.
Click to expand...
Let's not get ahead of ourselves shall we? You must be nuts if you think those tiny little sprites take that much amount of work. Crystal alone had more drawn animations than the DS ones (DS uses 2 frames and animated behavior, Crystal had at least 2, usually more real frames). 1 sprite artist could easily manage to make all the attacks animated for 1-2 Pokémon a day. Hire 4-5 artists for half a year? Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
 
SovanJedi said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol That would theoretically be well over 90,000 frames of animation, and even MORE when we know how many Pokemon there are going to be (and not taking things like different forms into account.) That's more frames of animation than 6 full length Disney animated features put together. You're absolutely insane to think they would spend the time making that animation, let alone fit it all on a DS cart.
Click to expand...
90k frames / 600 pokemon = 150 frames per pokemon. 15 frames per pokemon, at 600 pokemon, is 9,000 frames. More with different forms etc but still a very reasonable amount. Let's say 10,000 frames at 2kb/frame (which is an overestimation) is 20 megabytes. A DS cart can hold 4 gigabits (perhaps more). Storage space is a complete non issue.

And unless I'm missing something, 24 frames per second * 60 seconds per minute = 1440 frames a minute. Assuming a 90 minute movie, that is about 130,000 frames. "6 full length Disney animated features" = ~777,000 frames. Compared to ~10,000. Also, one 2d, 80 by 80 sprite is not even close to as difficult or time consuming to create as a single frame of a Disney animated film. That's like saying a TV dinner is as difficult to cook as a full coarse dinner at the French Laundry because they're both meals.

15 frames per mon would be completely doable, and is not laughable at all.
 
Soneet said:
Let's not get ahead of ourselves shall we? You must be nuts if you think those tiny little sprites take that much amount of work. Crystal alone had more drawn animations than the DS ones (DS uses 2 frames and animated behavior, Crystal had at least 2, usually more real frames). 1 sprite artist could easily manage to make all the attacks animated for 1-2 Pokémon a day. Hire 4-5 artists for half a year? Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
Click to expand...

IDK, if they were to do realtime then I would hope the sprites where more detailed then they are now and that it would be on stronger hardware because I think it would be a step backwards compared to how nice they look at this point.

I really don't know how they could go about making a GOOD realtime Pokemon Main Line title with a 2D fighting style. I mean, the concept of the games (collecting lots of mons, trading, training, battling, befriending) all seem to work against realtime play (theres like 493 out now with a new 100+ on the horizon. Sure, they could get away with the same basic animations for some Pokemon . . . but not all :/ ).

And 3D wise they should only think about that once the handhelds are as strong as/ stronger then the Wii or something if they try to keep them handheld only IMO. And seeing as allot of people I know think SSB when they think realtime Pokemon I would LOVE to see how a game where all the Pokemon are as detailed and well modeled as the ones in Brawl are.
pokemon_trainer.jpg


d076ac9ccb5db0_full.jpg

(Anyone else find it odd how much more detail Lucario got compared to the others? The others look like they are right out of the games where as Lucario looks more like a 3D representation of a 2D character . . . :/ Still looks balls kicking bad ass but different in a way.)

But I know that thats just a fantasy wonder land where Nintendo can some how get enuff artist/ modelers/ animators to make 500-600 kick ass 3D Pokemon fighters.

But who knows, I just searched Pikachu's Pokey-park and theres alil less then 200 "playable" Pokemon and that game was made by just Creatures Inc. If GameFreak wanted to go hard with one I'm sure Nintendo could give then the means to make one not that I see how much Creatures could do on it's own in full 3D.


What was I talking about again? Oh yeah, 2D styled realtime Pokemon could work on next gen DS or home console if Nintendo does it right but IDK if they would ever see a need for it. Hopefully the big shot at GameFreak talking about putting action into the game sparks something that could bring in real time the right way.
 
Black-Wind, I only referenced the animation of Street Fighter 3, not the actual fighting style. The last thing I want is directly control my Pokémon with left-right movements. I had a small discussion with one of my friends recently. Wouldn't it be cool if you could actually give commands (maybe even using the mic, but mapped buttons are fine too) to Pokémon like "Dodge it!"? That way you could make a really cool battle system where Quick Attack is so quick that it's hard to give the command Dodge in time, but extremely powerful attacks are slow and easy to dodge but fill up specific areas of the battle field or burn the stage or things like that. Anything to make the battle seem more like the anime. The quests are great in this game, the adventure is well paced, now if only the battles could improve. If a new system is too complicated (for young kids, their target audience) then at least make the animation smooth and awesome-looking. If there's any franchise that could pioneer mass 2D animation in videogames, it would be this one. I would be satisfied if they could provide the sprites at the quality it is now in current DS games.
 
imo its time Nintendo got with the times.. I want to be able to upload my team online.. kinda like xbox.com but instead of people seeing your unlocked achievements they see your unlocked Pokedex and current team, with all their stats. You could submit challenges, have rankings, statistics and leaderboards. It would make owning a rare Pokemon a real accomplishment when the whole world can see you are one of 12 people to have XXX, or similar.
 
painey said:
imo its time Nintendo got with the times.. I want to be able to upload my team online.. kinda like xbox.com but instead of people seeing your unlocked achievements they see your unlocked Pokedex and current team, with all their stats. You could submit challenges, have rankings, statistics and leaderboards. It would make owning a rare Pokemon a real accomplishment when the whole world can see you are one of 12 people to have XXX, or similar.
Click to expand...
Easier way to transfer stuff aswell would be nice..
 
i think they should just go back to the 8 bit style of pokemon gold/silver/crystal and redraw all the new pokemon to fit in there. Then we could also have awesome 8 bit music again (not that the advance and ds games have bad music).

then they should go and make a fully 3d pokemon adventure for the wii
 
painey said:
imo its time Nintendo got with the times.. I want to be able to upload my team online.. kinda like xbox.com but instead of people seeing your unlocked achievements they see your unlocked Pokedex and current team, with all their stats. You could submit challenges, have rankings, statistics and leaderboards. It would make owning a rare Pokemon a real accomplishment when the whole world can see you are one of 12 people to have XXX, or similar.
Click to expand...
Also you could be able to download random team data and fight against them with your Pokemon to increase an online rank.
That would be awesome.
 
IcedTea said:
90k frames / 600 pokemon = 150 frames per pokemon. 15 frames per pokemon, at 600 pokemon, is 9,000 frames. More with different forms etc but still a very reasonable amount. Let's say 10,000 frames at 2kb/frame (which is an overestimation) is 20 megabytes. A DS cart can hold 4 gigabits (perhaps more). Storage space is a complete non issue.

And unless I'm missing something, 24 frames per second * 60 seconds per minute = 1440 frames a minute. Assuming a 90 minute movie, that is about 130,000 frames. "6 full length Disney animated features" = ~777,000 frames. Compared to ~10,000. Also, one 2d, 80 by 80 sprite is not even close to as difficult or time consuming to create as a single frame of a Disney animated film. That's like saying a TV dinner is as difficult to cook as a full coarse dinner at the French Laundry because they're both meals.

15 frames per mon would be completely doable, and is not laughable at all.
Click to expand...

I was under the impressions that Soneet meant 15 ANIMATIONS per Pokemon rather than 15 frames (if I misinterpreted that then please correct me... Although I must say anybody who expect 15 frames per Pokemon to compare favourably to SF3 is beyond me). Plus he specified Street Fighter 3-calibre sprites, which are larger and more detailed and still required more work than the stuff from Crystal which involved wiggling bodyparts and weren't even full frames of animation. Considering some of the characters in Street Fighter 3 are order of magnitudes more expressive than any 2D Pokemon animations (and include techniques like rotoscoping, a common practice with Disney films ever since Snow White) the Disney films comparison is not as extreme as all that, wonky mathematics be damned. Of course a second of animation in a Disney film took months to complete granted, and yeah it isn't a full screen animation either, but it's still a lot of ridiculous and unreasonable effort to pull off the requested feat, which was basically the point that I'm trying to make.
 
SovanJedi said:
I was under the impressions that Soneet meant 15 ANIMATIONS per Pokemon rather than 15 frames (if I misinterpreted that then please correct me... Although I must say anybody who expect 15 frames per Pokemon to compare favourably to SF3 is beyond me). Plus he specified Street Fighter 3-calibre sprites, which are larger and more detailed and still required more work than the stuff from Crystal which involved wiggling bodyparts and weren't even full frames of animation. Considering some of the characters in Street Fighter 3 are order of magnitudes more expressive than any 2D Pokemon animations (and include techniques like rotoscoping, a common practice with Disney films ever since Snow White) the Disney films comparison is not as extreme as all that, wonky mathematics be damned. Of course a second of animation in a Disney film took months to complete granted, and yeah it isn't a full screen animation either, but it's still a lot of ridiculous and unreasonable effort to pull off the requested feat, which was basically the point that I'm trying to make.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I didn't mean 15 frames, but an animation for each attack. For example, a tackle would have 3-4 frames of a Pokémon jumping and 1 frame for flying, 2-3 frames for hitting and 5-6 frames for retreating back to position. But lots of those frames can be used for different attacks (Quick Attack would have a lot of the same frames, but without the slow startup). So it's definitely more than 15, but it wouldn't go way over 150. The comparison with multiple Disney movies is absurd because those little sprites take such little work once you have the keyframes. SF3's sprites had keyframes first (the hardest part), but the smooth animation in between were usually just parts moved around and little adjustments for things like fingers.

Most Pokémon are a lot more simplistic than human shapes (usually it's just 1 blob when it comes to animation).

I only referenced SF3-like animation, not the size or type of design. If they went for 7-8 sprites so it twitches from 1 sprite to another for certain attacks then I don't think they should bother. Make it smooth like SF3 (or Fire Emblem GBA if you want a small sprite example of good animation) or keep it static then.

I looked at this from a spriter's point of view. If you had to animate 1 attack for 1 Pokémon, how long would it take? After the keyframe, it's 10-15 minutes for each sprite. It's not unreasonable to have most attacks completed by the end of the day. I assume a game as big as Pokémon could afford at least a few animators for that. The best thing is that most of the imagination has already been done: the gigantic TV show. So thinking of keyframes (how do they exactly move) is not the problem.
 
Are they gonna show anything on Pokemon Sunday today? Watching other stuff so don't know if I should take the time to watch the stream.
 
Soneet said:
Yeah, I didn't mean 15 frames, but an animation for each attack. For example, a tackle would have 3-4 frames of a Pokémon jumping and 1 frame for flying, 2-3 frames for hitting and 5-6 frames for retreating back to position. But lots of those frames can be used for different attacks (Quick Attack would have a lot of the same frames, but without the slow startup). So it's definitely more than 15, but it wouldn't go way over 150. The comparison with multiple Disney movies is absurd because those little sprites take such little work once you have the keyframes. SF3's sprites had keyframes first (the hardest part), but the smooth animation in between were usually just parts moved around and little adjustments for things like fingers.

Most Pokémon are a lot more simplistic than human shapes (usually it's just 1 blob when it comes to animation).

I only referenced SF3-like animation, not the size or type of design. If they went for 7-8 sprites so it twitches from 1 sprite to another for certain attacks then I don't think they should bother. Make it smooth like SF3 (or Fire Emblem GBA if you want a small sprite example of good animation) or keep it static then.

I looked at this from a spriter's point of view. If you had to animate 1 attack for 1 Pokémon, how long would it take? After the keyframe, it's 10-15 minutes for each sprite. It's not unreasonable to have most attacks completed by the end of the day. I assume a game as big as Pokémon could afford at least a few animators for that. The best thing is that most of the imagination has already been done: the gigantic TV show. So thinking of keyframes (how do they exactly move) is not the problem.
Click to expand...

This will never happen. We're talking about what will likely be over 600 Pokemon and rising. The GBA Fire emblem have less then a tenth of the classes and only two attacks and yet they still needed to cheat by using TONS of blurring. asking for multiple attacks for each Pokemon is beyond unrealistic.
 
Teknoman said:
Would the Wii even have been able to display graphics of that quality? Just dont see how they went from that to the PBR we got :lol
Click to expand...
I think we could have gotten closer than we did

Part of it is that Genius Sonority pretty much refuses to significantly update the older models and those are holding everything else back.

I guess it's too much work to update 250 models from the N64 era, which is why Gamefreak is not going to do it, either.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
I think we could have gotten closer than we did

Part of it is that Genius Sonority pretty much refuses to significantly update the older models and those are holding everything else back.

I guess it's too much work to update 250 models from the N64 era, which is why Gamefreak is not going to do it, either.
Click to expand...

That's okay because I pretty much refuse to buy Genius Sonority games.
 
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