meh. Canada deals with it's immigrants differently than the US (cultural mosaic vs melting pot). Besides, most often than not when someone asks you where you are from in Canada they are asking for your ethnicity. I don't see the problem with someone (who's born in Canada) saying they are Nigerian when asked by a Canadian in Canada if they are of Nigerian descent. But if you still say you are Nigerian when outside of Canada than shame on you.
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Poland reverses decision to take in refugees after Brussels terror attacks
- Thread starter Enter the Dragon Punch
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meh. Canada deals with it's immigrants differently than the US (cultural mosaic vs melting pot). Besides, most often than not when someone asks you where you are from in Canada they are asking for your ethnicity. I don't see the problem with someone (who's born in Canada) saying they are Nigerian when asked by a Canadian in Canada if they are of Nigerian descent. But if you still say you are Nigerian when outside of Canada than shame on you.
SporeCrawler
Member
As far as i understand the germans and the EU have expressed that they will cut subsidies to non-cooperative EU melber states. As far as I know polakd is a country ghat gets a lot of money from EU so...
His Majesty
Banned
Belgium's integration policy of the last 30 years is gaining traction I see.
So what do we do with the people who are already here?
Nothing
Doczu
Member
Fishy or not, it at least showed the people what politicians think of our own country. The way that they handled the whole situation was their own nail to the coffin. No one was punished, other than the people who tapped the restaurants, the journalists who wanted to expose everything and the politicians/activists who were during the protests.
Not the best way to handle such situation.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
But their actions are the product of Middle Eastern/Islamic culture. It doesnt matter where they were born, killing in the name of Allah is not a traditional European practice.
So, free to stay?
kingkaiser
Member
As a matter of fact, killing in the name of god is a very, very old tradition here in Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
Sure
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Firstly, I did say killing in the name of ALLAH. Secondly, the type of violence you mentioned isnt a part of modern Europe/Christianity in the way that Islamic terrorism is a part of the modern Middle East/Islam - and I suspect you know it.
So even the ones who would otherwise not be given the permit to stay through official screening processes? Which I remind you is the still the majority of current asylum seekers.
Sounds fishy
kingkaiser
Member
Ehh, it's pretty much the same
Do you know Anders Breivik? No? Well, he killed 77 people all by himself in the name of God and to "protect" Europe from Islam just five years ago...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik
Surely
Yeah no, during trials Breivik denied that he did this for religious reasons. He did (in his own head) do it to save Norway, guess who he wanted to save it from? I'll help you; Muslims.
The kids he killed was a summer camp for a left leaning political party that want immigrants to Norway.
Yes he's a terrorist, no he's not a religious one.
Ok then
Nathan_Drake
Member
Hmmmm i would have swore the biggest attacks to ever occur to Poland occured by the Nazis in WWII. completly destroying Warsaw. Killing on average 3000 people a day.
Then to be put behind the Iron Curtain and deal with all the despair that came with that.
I visited Warsaw and Krakow 3 weeks ago. My girlfriend lives there. Their whole society and sense of self is based off these events.
They protest the current right wing government most weekends. When I was there is was 80,000 people. I dont think it is so cut and dry.
kingkaiser
Member
Yeah so he just contradicted himself, his terrorist attack was clearly religious motivated by the wish to "save Norway from Muslims" as you already stated.
I mean come on, it's not really that hard to understand.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
No its not the same, because killing for Allah gives an indication as to which culture has encouraged these terrorists to act. If someone is killing for Allah, then they are influenced by Islam and the culture of violence that exists in some modern Muslim societies. And I dont think anyone can reasonably deny the existence of that culture, when we regularly see people blowing themselves up in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey and Pakistan etc.
Do you know what the exception to the rule is? Do you think it would be possible to have people like Brevik running around and killing people, with the same level of frequency that Islamic terrorists do in their own countries, and still build a first world society? It would be impossible.
As I understand it, Law and Justice (almost wrote Law and Order first, lol) gets most of their support from the older, rural, conservative population in the southeastern part of the country. Warzaw is probably liberal overall so it's no surprise that there are large protests there, but it's not representative of the aforementioned rural areas where L&J support is way, way more prevalent. Poland is actually a very polarised country in that respect.
See that orange enclave in the center-right part of the map? That's Warzaw. Leave the city though and you're deep in L&J country.
EDIT: Sorry, you wrote Krakow. I'm tired. Krakow would be one of the other enclaves down at the bottom which is also surrounded by deep L&J country.
He didn't contradict himself.
His reasons was first and foremost plain insanity, next to that it was bigotry and nationalism.
Wanting to save Norway from Muslims isn't so much because of religion, but a lot more to do with culture.
Even with that said, it's one event, Islamic extremism can account for a lot more than that recently in a Europe that's predominantly Christian. So yea...
Ok, so how about the other way round, in Finland for example:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/police_drunken_racists_target_refugee_centres/8555160
Plus one in February: http://yle.fi/uutiset/petrol_bomb_attack_on_reception_centre_in_petajavesi_none_injured/8647919
Less lethal, sure, but much more frequent.
kingkaiser
Member
Religious megalomania is pretty much all the same around the world, killing in the name of some fairy tale is just universally insane. There is no culture on earth with clean hands on this topic.
Yeah sure, like the IRA, ETA, RAF, NSU and many others also were just exception to the rule.
None of these committed terrorism for religious reasons, none.
In the end, dead civilians are dead civilians, reasons don't matter in that regard, however it matters in regards to targets, and how we have no idea when this is going to stop.
You can't do a good friday agree like we did with IRA to halt the attacks, extremist Islam is going to keep on going.
Can confirm that it's the same in Sweden; tons of arson attacks on refugee centers. We also had someone attack a beggar's camp with a machete. And then there was of course the guy who attacked a school with a sword and killed 3 people with immigrant backgrounds just after posing for pictures with some native Swedes.
Imagine the uproar if the last attack had been committed by an ISIS agent...
Yet these attacks are conveniently forgotten
Khalid and Ibrahim El Bakraoui:
The El Bakraoui brothers were known to the Belgian authorities. Unlike other radicalised ISIL adherents, who started as petty criminals, the men had a history of committing more severe crimes. They were believed to have rented an apartment that housed some of the assailants involved in the November 2015 Paris attacks and supplied ammunition for them.
Ibrahim El Bakraoui:
Ibrahim (born 9 October 1986 in Brussels) was involved in the attempted robbery of a currency exchange office in January 2010, where he shot at police with a Kalashnikov rifle. The Mayor of Brussels, Freddy Thielemans, and the Mayor of Molenbeek, Philippe Moureaux, described the shooting as a "fait divers" (a small daily news item) and "normal in a large city", causing controversy. Ibrahim was sentenced to 10 years in prison, but was released on parole in 2014. He did not abide by the parole conditions and was sought again by the authorities. According to the authorities in Turkey, they detained Ibrahim as a militant in June 2015 and deported him to the Netherlands. Belgian authorities were informed of the detention and deportation, but they apparently ignored the warnings, and the Netherlands released Ibrahim after failing to establish any link to terrorism.
I could keep going... Europe immigration policies are a mess, a fucking joke... they can't even handle their "own" criminals, whereabouts, documents, what makes you think they can handle an influx of hundreds of thousands of people with such sloppiness...
General populace SHOULD be afraid and ANGRY because these people are being governed by stupid asses who have no notion of reality and the actuality of the situation.
Countries that know that there is a mess that should be fixed should be entitled to close their borders, after all sovereignty is still a thing or not?
Fuck the European Union and its stupid forced or suggested policies, this will only get worse. It's plain and easy to foresee.
It's not a terrorist winning here thing, it's a clusterfuck of schlong measuring between the US and Russia again, Syria caught in a civil war nobody really, like really cares about, the EU (Germany dictating its subordinates) being stupid as fuck, ISIL getting support from WHO KNOWS WHERE!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (wink, wink, nod, nod)
Saudi Arabia and Israel laughing their asses off cuz they just get to watch and do shit about it as always. And China being China.
In simpler words I think we are in a kinda cold war state again between Russia and USA, proxy wars benefiting ISIL, a milquetoast Europe leaded by a stupid Germany woman, and the always worthless all supreme UN.
We'll see how all this plays out by the end of the year. Not optimistic though.
Forgotten by whom? They've gotten a lot of attention in Danish media. Also buildings getting burnt down tend to not get as much attention as people getting blown up or shot to death...
Excuse me? I'm a part of a problem for acknowledging my heritage? If anything is a problem, it is people who cannot tolerate diversity.
Does anything that you wrote have anything to do with what I wrote or did you just feel the need to attach your rant to my post at random? Because I fail to see the connection here. My point is that because the European idea of nationality is still tied to ethnicity we have an issue with it hampering integration from both sides. Immigrants can't identify with their new country and natives continue to see them as outsiders. I don't even know what your point is supposed to be, at least not in relation to that.
That was getting by back then, but they were comparitively more tolerant compared to their neighbours. Spain exiled native Spainiards (Iberian muslims whom reside in Morroco today and Jews ). But the point is, Muslims have been a part of Europe for a long time, so this innane rhetoric of European ethnicity being safer is ridiculous. Islamism is a modern phenomenon, rather than being an intrinsic value of every Muslim anti-immigrant / racists throw around (some here are suggesting).
Terrorism is terrorism. You stated terror on European soil being from people of Islamic background (not ethnically european) and i gave you examples of Irish terrorism and Serbian terrorism, not imported but internally motivated.
You point to a group of people: "In the minds of anti-immigrant people..."
then say: "...this is not aimed at anyone in this thread but at far-right politicians like the Polish government."
Are you saying they are doing (The Polish) the wrong thing? That a segment of Europe "minds of anti-immigrant people..." shouldn't be worried or at least questioning these immigration measures and policies?, just because "far-right politics" and not common sense?
This is not an issue of integration, it's an issue of failed policies and dreams made of cotton candy, you can't force integration when you can't or barely handle your own extremists in these case previously KNOWN criminals. There's a definitive culture/ethnic side to it all and should be discussed, there's a pattern, do you see it?
I don't see how national interest has anything to do with ethnicity. Personally, i don't see myself having my current country as giving me any form of identity. Yet im invested in it's economic and social interests simply because i like living here.
On the other hand, forced cultural appropriation makes no sense either. The onus is ultimately on the arriving party to respect the local values and law.
Allah is the same god as that worshipped by Christians and Jews...
Like, if you wanted to say "God" in arabic, you would say "Allah"
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Yes, but its about the frequency and severity of which this stuff happens in todays world. Different cultures produce significantly different levels of religious violence and its not even just about random citizens doing bad stuff. You also have to acknowledge state sanctioned violence that largely exists within Muslim societies (blasphemy laws, homosexuality laws, rape laws etc).
Yes, these are more examples of exceptions to the rule for me. The bottom line is that largely peaceful technologically advanced European societies, where people generally lead comfortable lives, couldnt exist if large numbers of people regularly went around killing each other, or agreed with the murderous actions that these groups carried out.
Largely an example of petty crime to me. A few examples of vandalism arent in the same league as frequent murder.
Thats not the point though. The point is you have terrorists who self identify as Muslim, killing random people for their god - all over the World.
That problem also works in the other direction. For instance, even on political issues Islamists see themselves as Muslims first, and not as liberal/socialist/conservative/... citizens of the countries. It's because of these identity politics that they can associate with the perceived grievances of people in other countries and decide to blow themselves up in an imagined war against their own country.
It is a tragic consequence of failed integration. The fact that we have so many isolated communities in many pats of Europe demonstrates this further. However, we also have a lot of examples for very successful integration. That's why I also see potential here, not only risks. Nevertheless, the first step towards progress would be for all parts of the political spectrum to acknowledge that we are facing a significant cultural issue here and that naive multiculturalism, as understood in a European context, won't work. Instead, we need to push aggressively for a more American understanding of multiculturalism, where everybody is welcome but needs to identify as a citizen of the country first and foremost when it comes to political and societal issues and values. Both natives and immigrants need to come to this understanding of our modern European society.
Of course they don't get as much attention because there are less casualties. The biggest strikes are noticed by national and even international media. However most of them go unnoticed.
This news article is from last November from Germany: http://www.dw.com/en/violence-against-refugees-rising-in-germany/a-18829303
Have these gotten much media attention?
Are you asking me if I think that it's wrong for people to consider someone who's family have lived in the country for five generations an immigrant? Yes. Yes I do. How is that even a question? If you have ties to a country stretching 150 years back i the past then you're obviously not an immigrant and considering you as such - for any reason - would be very suspicious indeed.
The rest of your post, again, doesn't have so much to do with what I actually wrote as to what you appear to project on it. I made a very specific comment on how anti-immigrant activists and politicians are obsessed with ethnicity, that's all. I have made plenty of other comments about my views on why the Polish government are wrong in closing their borders in this thread if you want to know where I stand. I'll sum it up: it's inhumane, pathetic and in complete conflict with everything western civilisation is supposed to stand for. I thought we, as in Europeans, were better than this.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Taking people directly from the refugee camps should be the refugee policy of the EU from now on, so we can give our resources to who needs it most, rather than to people who are from safe countries but exploit the Syrian war to get into Europe. 7,000 in the grand scheme of things is a very low number, so I don't know why the government of Poland thinks that they can't take them in. They will inevitably have to mix with everyone else, so they have a good chance of being Westernized.
How about the molotov cocktail strikes on housings with people inside?
Which is kind of my point, actually. Anti-immigration extremists might drag the question of ethnicity to ridiculous lengths (because they're racists more often than not) but there's a serious issue in Europe with how ethnicity and nationality get conflated. Integration is a two way street and this conflation makes it more difficult for both immigrants and natives to consider the former true citizens. It's part of why the enclaves exist - we set them up because we thought the immigrants were outsiders that wouldn't stick around. This continues to be a problem when it comes to eventually dispersing the enclaves because the population still views them as outsiders and would be perfectly fine with the enclaves had they not devolved into social unrest and a haven for terrorists.
Multiculturalism has been an excuse to avoid integration, in my mind. I strongly favor a more "American" approach over both the status quo and over total assimilation.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
I wonder how to disperse the enclaves. That has to be what we have to be working towards now to prevent extremism from spreading further, only problem is how?
Hoya Destroyer
Member
In a worst case scenario, these would still be isolated cases of attempted murder and not something a large number of any civilized European population would agree with.
Of course it's not something a large number of any civilized European population would agree with. But these strikes are not isolated cases by any means, they are a part of a much bigger anti-immigrant movement, which include organized groups like Nordic Resistance Movement and Soldiers of Odin as well as multiple "media" outlets around the Nordic.
By the way, are you suggesting that a large number of non-European (I gather you mean muslim) population supports the Brussels strikes?
Considering that most people there have no other options because they either can't afford to live anywhere else or outright can't get an apartment anywhere else (because of things like waiting lists) I imagine that the only realistic solution is to offer them subsidised apartments and houses in more wealthy and native areas. Good luck with that though. Like I said, most native populations wants them to stay in the enclaves because they don't want them as neighbors. Any government actually proposing to deal with the segregation this way would be crucified by the public no matter how much safer it would make them.
A disturbingly large minority of the population would probably sooner have the immigrants in internment camps than living next door...
It's even more fascinating when you compare results of the election to partitions map. First map grabbed froom google:
For historical context: in the second half of 18th century as Poland collapsed under governmental apathy and corruption neighboring countries - Prussia, Austria-Hungary and Russia seized control of Poland divided the country among themselves. Generalizing things - Prussia more or less considered territory as their own and industrialized it, Russia considered it occupied territory and Austria-Hungary left it to rot.
Looking at post-WW II Poland borders, post-Prussia Poland is more liberal, post-Rusia Poland is more conservative and Austria-Hungary part is deeeeply conservative. This not only applies to elections, it extends to literally every single imaginable sociological or economical map you can imagine. These things take literally centuries to change.
Thank you for this post, I didn't actually know that. I mean I knew about the partition but I had no idea it still had such an impact on Polish politics. All I know about the Polish political situation are things i learnt reading articles last year at the time of the election. It's really fascinating how the past continues to greatly impact the present day in such subtle ways. This is why I love learning about history, there's always an aspect you haven't thought of yet.
Just out of curiosity where are you from?
Is it inhumane to protect your country's own interests?
There's this view, I don't understand. Why should countries not involved in any kind or form on a conflict be obliged to take immigrants of dubious precedence into a region/continent that has numerous times proved its incompetence to prevent terrorist attacks, with laughable background checks, sloppy criminal persecution and sentencing.
Look at the perpetrators, all of them had criminal records. Now imagine, people with no records coming in droves to your country... you call it inhumane, I call it being rational, there's nothing more human than rationality.
Take it to a global scale, where's Saudi Arabia and other powerful rich as fuck Muslim nations in all of this? Where's Israel? They know it's stupid, and they are laughing at how Europe is being dumb as fuck.
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