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[Jooney]

I got into a Facebook argument with someone I recently removed from my list, but every time I would counter with information about the subject we were arguing about (healthcare something or another), she would find a way to perform more elaborate mental gymnastics to invalidate or ignore the point I made.

Having a reasonable conversation means both sides need to be open to new information, and a lot of the time, that doesn't seem to be the case; especially considering how intolerant and radicalized some people's views are becoming. Regardless of what you tell them, they aren't going to listen, or will find a way to tell you that you're wrong.

This is why when I want to have a political conversation with a friend, I do it face to face over a beer. There's something about seeing your interlocutor in the eye when discussing matters that leads to more much open and honest discussion. The internet is the reverse - being behind a screen entrenches positions, closes minds and brokers dishonest conversation because no one wants to made a fool in public, especially with friends and onlookers watching on a public medium like Facebook. Besides NeoGAF, I almost never bother with any deep political conversation online. I just don't have the time.

 

[ThisWreckage]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

 

[Sirpopopop]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

You're just baiting for Empty Vessel, aren't you?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

That is a good distinction. I guess we should gage the effectiveness of a welfare program by how many hands the money passes through, the more hands the better? Money that goes straight to someone and is not put back in the system should be avoided at all costs, IMO.

So what should we do? Be like the Soviet Union and just have the government serve poor people food?

And someone gets a job out of it!

That's one reason I'm avidly for those programs. I try and use this example whenever I can: My wife for a while was working at a grocery store in a pretty downtrodden part of town. It was an area that was bustling for a while, had a huge mall and all that, but then things went south and after many years pretty well everything closed up shop. There was still a grocery store there, though. A lot of those people were hit hard during the recession, and were on food stamps. The week that stuff would get handed out, her store turned crazy, and tons of people were there buying stuff for the month. Afterwards it was back to dead. Anyway, my point is that I'm fairly certain (like 80-90% certain) that store literally wouldn't exist anymore without those food stamps. It wouldn't be there. They don't make that much on it compared to other stores and it was already neglected. Without that money they would have thrown in the towel. What that would have meant was my wife, someone working hard for her money would have been out a job, and so would all the rest of those fine people. A lot of them were from those downtrodden parts of town, just trying to live their lives, too. Taking away those benefits doesn't just affect those that some particular people try to villainize and demonize, it affects those trying to work and make it out of that spot. It was an awful place to work, but really it was one of the few places to work around that area.

I always wanted to start a thread on peoples expierences working with people with food stamps or working in the welfare office, but I'm too scared that it would cause a shit storm.

 

[ThisWreckage]

You're just baiting for Empty Vessel, aren't you?

No, because I know where he stands.

 

[SouthernDragon]

You're just baiting for Empty Vessel, aren't you?

I can hear Empty Vessel typing furiously right now.

 

[RDreamer]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

Screwed how? Some might say it, but that doesn't make it a problem. Some people say Obama's a foreign born muslim, too. People think crazy things.

No, because I know where he stands.

And have you demonstrated at all why he might be wrong? Or are you still just afraid because it's a pretty big number?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

You do realize that the deficit goes away if Congress does nothing. It is probably even better scenario now with the cuts going into effect soon.

We can shave a lot of the deficit by just going back to the tax rates during Clinton's era.

 

[pigeon]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

Some would be pretty poorly informed, though.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Isn't Japan running a 400% "deficit"?

 

[Oblivion]

Rush has another opinion again: British socialism is worse than Chinese socialism.

 

[RDreamer]

Rush has another opinion again: British socialism is worse than Chinese socialism.

lol, why did I listen to this? British ceremony was scarier because a free people decided to highlight those things? You don't think maybe they like those things, and don't mind because they are still FREE. Maybe those things don't take away your freedom after all. I mean even Rush admits they're free, still! Also had to laugh at his comment that the libs all want us to live free of technology... derp

Man that guy's a dumbass.

 

[KtSlime]

So what should we do? Be like the Soviet Union and just have the government serve poor people food?

Certainly nicer than letting them starve, or driving them to participate in illicit activities to stay alive. Sorry, I don't have answers, just somewhat thoughtful(hopefully) observations.

 

[Black Mamba]

This help?

This should work now, but just in case:

 

[Ember128]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

To be fair, I don't think 16 Trillion is irreversible for debt. There are other problems that are bigger cogs in the disaster engine.

I think America has at least until 2030 to fix an education system, healthcare, disparity in treatment under the law, and to start addressing income inequality. I give it to then until things turn from a "this is starting to become a big problem" to "this has to be fixed NOW" kind of problem.

 

[FyreWulff]

So what should we do? Be like the Soviet Union and just have the government serve poor people food?

I don't think that works for two reasons. One, morale. Lining up for the soup kitchen gets you fed, but you feel like shit for doing it. Two, it encourages hoarding (holding onto food you're served to eat later) and removes the chance to learn how to cook.

By giving it out as food stamps, you a) encourage the person to learn how to cook since raw materials are cheaper and will make their food money last longer b) they get more variety c) they support local growers d) jobs are created by the store needing to hire employees and distributors to handle the increased demand.

And finally, it costs less in gas as with food stamps, you give them a card and then just move numbers through accounts and they can walk to the local store. With soup kitchens you'd have to build a cafeteria and then shuttle everyone in.


slightly related side story that I guess fits: I used to volunteer to help the local Salvation Army church because the rest of my family went, even though I'm not christian. They did a thing where they gave out bread to anyone that showed up. Literally, anyone. No forms, no paperwork, we just tallied the amount of pieces of bread we gave out.

We still had trouble giving away the bread before it went bad because hardly anyone wanted to be known as going to get free bread by peers/family. And it wasn't shit bread either, this was day old Panera, so it wasn't a quality issue. It was getting to the point that we had to bring out the bread on Sunday and beg service-goers to take bread home with them before it all went bad. People forget the mental / social aspect of the various types of assistance you can provide.

 

[speculawyer]

This is scary. People donate money based on paranoid conspiracy theories. I guess we get the government we deserve because we've got lots of crazy people that support crazy people. :-/

Recent controversy over Rep. Michele Bachmann's inquiries into whether Congress had been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't appear to have hampered her re-election campaign.

The Minnesota Republican announced Tuesday that she raised more than $1 million between July 1 and July 25.

 

[Clevinger]

Battle for the Senate - from PPP:

Can you link me to where you got the AZ numbers? I can't seem to find them.

 

[RustyNails]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

Lets print money. Problem solved.

 

[speculawyer]

Yup. Teapers don't want to admit it, but EBT/food stamps essentially boil down to corporate welfare, you're just giving it to a middleman as assistance.

No . . . that is a bad way to look at things. The poor person is getting 100% free food. The corporation is making their usual 2% or 3% profit margin on that food. Yes, the cheesemaker & store benefit a little bit. But it is really about helping the poor person.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Can you link me to where you got the AZ numbers? I can't seem to find them.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/101677072/AZ-Sen-PPP-for-LCV-July-2012

It was for a conservationist group, they don't usually report polls they do for other people.

Romney also leads Obama 51-42 there.

 

[Jooney]

That's exactly why she (Bachmann) did this - to rile her up base and get the donations flowing in.

If she was genuinely concerned about a National Security threat, she would have informed the relevant authorities to conduct an investigation, and not have this played out in public.

 

[el retorno]

Reid comes off as pretty careful, no way he says it if he does not have proof. I think its a matter of waiting, he won't hit him with it til mid September or early October, where it would do the most damage.

How can they have proof thought? They can't leak his tax records cause that'd be illegal but they could do a swift boat type add with former friends saying this stuff to force it out. Force him to release it.

 

[empty vessel]

We are approaching 16 trillion in debt according to the U.S. debt clock. I didn't want to make a thread, but it seems like we are absolutely screwed. That is quite the deficit. Some might say that it's a hole that we can't dig ourselves out of.

So the government swapped 16 trillion non-interest-bearing dollars for 16 trillion interest-bearing dollars. What is problematic about that?

Also consider that the biggest chunk of the US government's debt is owed to ... the US government. And that another big chunk is owed to US citizens. In other words, the US government has made promises to pay certain US citizens money in the future in exchange for taking their money in the past. What else does this remind you of? Social Security? Medicare?

Also, the US government can stop swapping non-interest-bearing dollars for interest-bearing dollars anytime it wants to. It doesn't have to make promises to pay people money in the future. It's a policy choice.

Lets print money. Problem solved.

The government prints every dollar it ever spends.

 

[B-Dubs]

How can they have proof thought? They can't leak his tax records cause that'd be illegal but they could do a swift boat type add with former friends saying this stuff to force it out. Force him to release it.

Like was said earlier maybe he had mentioned it at some point in conversation, or a former accountant alluded to it in conversation. They won't have HARD proof and whatever they have wouldn't hold up in court (not that it needs too) but someone somewhere knows something. No way do you get that specific without something, if you do and are wrong you look bad and they look good because they beat the expectation.

 

[metalslimer]

I wonder if somehow his tax returns could be leaked.

 

[Hop]

I wonder if somehow his tax returns could be leaked.

He's released them to McCain's campaign for the VP vetting, right? A leak could appear that way.

 

[el retorno]

Jesus. 5% combined on education and transportation infrastructure. That has to be dwarfed by other developed nations. No wonder we are turning back into a third world country, of sorts.

That's Federal Money. Education is the states. Not sure about transportation but most things are at least local-federal joint projects.

 

[el retorno]

Like was said earlier maybe he had mentioned it at some point in conversation, or a former accountant alluded to it in conversation. They won't have HARD proof and whatever they have wouldn't hold up in court (not that it needs too) but someone somewhere knows something. No way do you get that specific without something, if you do and are wrong you look bad and they look good because they beat the expectation.

Reading his quote. I think its being taken much more literally.

I think someone was saying he paid next to nothing. A very small amount and he used hyperbole

Edit: I'm really bad at double posting. I need to use the multiquote feature.

 

[gcubed]

i just saw the romney olympics ad. i love romney taking credit for fixing the olympics ... with a huge handout from the government

 

[Clevinger]

Reading his quote. I think its being taken much more literally.

I think someone was saying he paid next to nothing. A very small amount and he used hyperbole

Edit: I'm really bad at double posting. I need to use the multiquote feature.

Yeah, I'm guessing the same thing, if this Bain guy even exists in the first place.

 

[Farmboy]

Reading up on that Julian Castro guy, seems like a good pick for keynote speaker and a future presidential candidate. 2016-2020 is too early though; he'll be only 41 in 2016.

There was an interesting analysis on Daily Kos the other day, projecting Texas becoming a swing state around 2025. So 2024 might be a good year for a then 49-year-old Castro (esp. if Obama wins re-election and the next president is also a two-termer). If demographic trends remain the same and Castro takes Texas, the electoral math becomes pretty much insurmountable.

Although of course it is a bit silly to project that far ahead. Who do you guys like for 2016? Cuomo?

 

[B-Dubs]

Cuomo got gay marriage done before anyone even knew what was going on, but he's a bit too pro-corporation for Poligaf.

 

[speculawyer]

i just saw the romney olympics ad. i love romney taking credit for fixing the olympics ... with a huge handout from the government

He didn't build that.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Cuomo might as well be the democrat Romney. Not a fan at all.

Martin O'Malley seems good, but I haven't done enough research on him; I do know he raised taxes somewhat significantly in his state...

Hopefully Hillary will run. I can't think of anyone else better equipped to truly lead this nation

 

[Aaron Strife]

Cuomo might as well be the democrat Romney. Not a fan at all.

Martin O'Malley seems good, but I haven't done enough research on him; I do know he raised taxes somewhat significantly in his state...

Hopefully Hillary will run. I can't think of anyone else better equipped to truly lead this nation

I'm actually jumping on the Hillary bandwagon lately.

Obama -> Clinton -> Castro would be amazing. Still, my dream predicted Cuomo.

 

[Guileless]

The thing is that the right has convinced them that this debt is what's going to fuck over their kids. They've also convinced them that medicare and social security will go bankrupt soon if we don't do anything.

Has "the right" infiltrated the CBO?

In 2010, for the first time since the enactment of the Social Security Amendments of 1983, Social Security's annual outlays will exceed its annual tax revenues, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects. If the economy continues to recover from the recent recession, those tax revenues will again exceed outlays, but only for a few years. CBO anticipates that starting in 2016, if current laws remain in place, the program's annual spending will regularly exceed its tax revenues.

I don't need "the right" to convince me that all the Baby Boomers that lived it up with contraceptive sex and decades of low inflation/high growth that we will likely never see again did not invest enough in Social Security or have enough kids to support Social Security in its current form. (Medicare is even more depressing.)

 

[el retorno]

I'm actually jumping on the Hillary bandwagon lately.

Obama -> Clinton -> Castro would be amazing. Still, my dream predicted Cuomo.

We're not getting that long of a run of one party.

 

[el retorno]

Has "the right" infiltrated the CBO?

In 2010, for the first time since the enactment of the Social Security Amendments of 1983, Social Security's annual outlays will exceed its annual tax revenues, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects. If the economy continues to recover from the recent recession, those tax revenues will again exceed outlays, but only for a few years. CBO anticipates that starting in 2016, if current laws remain in place, the program's annual spending will regularly exceed its tax revenues.

I don't need "the right" to convince me that all the Baby Boomers that lived it up with contraceptive sex and decades of low inflation/high growth that we will likely never see again did not invest enough in Social Security or have enough kids to support Social Security in its current form. (Medicare is even more depressing.)

Read that. Raise the cap.

Also we have enough for a few decades then a bunch more at 75 percent

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

This should work now, but just in case:

Ah. I at times use this site. Though I'm not sure how accurate it is.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/

That's Federal Money. Education is the states.

Which is why I found that chart a bit odd. We spend MORE on education than virtually every other country in the world per GDP. Consider that for a second. More than Finland which has the best K-12 schools in the world and provides FREE college education. Britain which has some of the best colleges in the world (stand toe to toe with the top tier American schools) and cost often not much more than your local community college. Its a clusterfuck. Meanwhile kids in Detroit are fucking illiterate.

 

[ErasureAcer]

We're not getting that long of a run of one party.

The electoral map demographics says you're wrong.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Isn't Japan running a 400% "deficit"?

Doesn't really matter, as the majority is held by their public.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Doesn't really matter, as the majority is held by their public.

Doesn't that almost solely prove much of MMT?

 

[gcubed]

Has "the right" infiltrated the CBO?

In 2010, for the first time since the enactment of the Social Security Amendments of 1983, Social Security's annual outlays will exceed its annual tax revenues, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects. If the economy continues to recover from the recent recession, those tax revenues will again exceed outlays, but only for a few years. CBO anticipates that starting in 2016, if current laws remain in place, the program's annual spending will regularly exceed its tax revenues.

I don't need "the right" to convince me that all the Baby Boomers that lived it up with contraceptive sex and decades of low inflation/high growth that we will likely never see again did not invest enough in Social Security or have enough kids to support Social Security in its current form. (Medicare is even more depressing.)

so, not counting positive years before 1983, social security has ran a surplus for the last 20 years, and is scheduled to continue running a surplus for another few more years... then the year it doesnt run a surplus its a problem?

 

[el retorno]

The electoral map demographics says you're wrong.

Yes the GOP in 2020 will be the same party?

Julian Castro = first Hispanic president

Book it. 4 more years of Obama, 8 years of Hillary, then 8 years of him.

You really think were gonna get 22 years of democratic presidents?

 

[Aaron Strife]

The electoral map demographics says you're wrong.

Midwest/northeast will start becoming the new toss-up states.

I think a socially liberal GOP could sell itself fairly well to New England.

You really think were gonna get 22 years of democratic presidents?

Maybe not but I think Castro could be a good candidate down the line. Say if he became governor of Texas or something.

And considering Dems won the popular vote in 4 of the 5 past elections (one they "lost" because of the electoral college, and Bush the incumbent won by a small margin) I don't think it's too far-fetched. Black/hispanic/LGBT vote is growing and will be reliably Democratic for a good while.

 

[el retorno]

Midwest/northeast will start becoming the new toss-up states.

I think a socially liberal GOP could sell itself fairly well to New England.


Maybe not but I think Castro could be a good candidate down the line. Say if he became governor of Texas or something.

I just think its silly to think that far ahead. There are far to many factors.

2016 is as far as I'm realistically going with predicting candidates.

 

[empty vessel]

Has "the right" infiltrated the CBO?

In 2010, for the first time since the enactment of the Social Security Amendments of 1983, Social Security's annual outlays will exceed its annual tax revenues, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects. If the economy continues to recover from the recent recession, those tax revenues will again exceed outlays, but only for a few years. CBO anticipates that starting in 2016, if current laws remain in place, the program's annual spending will regularly exceed its tax revenues.

That's (1) strictly a result of demographics--baby boom generation retiring; and (2) means nothing notwithstanding that. The US government can pay whatever level of retirement benefits we collectively choose. The social security program being pegged to a particular taxation scheme is just an arbitrary political result. We can repeal the payroll tax today and continue paying whatever level of retirement benefits to retirees that we choose. The government's restraint is purely a function of laws that we have passed, it is not a real financial constraint. Laws can be changed.

I don't need "the right" to convince me that all the Baby Boomers that lived it up with contraceptive sex and decades of low inflation/high growth that we will likely never see again did not invest enough in Social Security or have enough kids to support Social Security in its current form. (Medicare is even more depressing.)

There is no need to "invest" in social security. We pay taxes generally to give currency value. Beyond that, the taxes we pay are irrelevant except when necessary to control inflationary pressures in the economy. Medicare likewise. The problem with Medicare is not that the government has chosen to provide health care benefits to a segment of the population, or even the level of those benefits. It is the rent-seeking in the private, for-profit corporate health sector that is the problem. And that can be dealt with easily, provided the right would quit defending these social parasites.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The electoral map demographics says you're wrong.

Yea right. Parties adapt. Every four years a party decides that the other is doomed, and it never happens. Republicans are certainly in trouble, but the country remains receptive to non-crazy conservative ideals. A moderate like Jeb Bush wouldn't have a hard time winning support.

It's also worth noting Citizen's United will make it harder for democrats to win. Obama is an exception to the rule given how popular he is among nearly every activist group/demographic of his party. What happens when someone other than Obama or Hillary, and no hype or bankable name, runs against a machine that can raise 70-100mil a month based off a few businessmen?

 

[el retorno]

Yea right. Parties adapt. Every four years a party decides that the other is doomed, and it never happens. Republicans are certainly in trouble, but the country remains receptive to non-crazy conservative ideals. A moderate like Jeb Bush wouldn't have a hard time winning support.

It's also worth noting Citizen's United will make it harder for democrats to win. Obama is an exception to the rule given how popular he is among nearly every activist group/demographic of his party. What happens when someone other than Obama or Hillary, and no hype or bankable name, runs against a machine that can raise 70-100mil a month based off a few businessmen?

You're also crazy to think that money won't flow in to the democratic party. Didn't Obama get more wall st. money in 2008?

Its silly to think these people are only ever going to fund one party. They go where they feel they'll get something. Dems, If nothing is done to Citizen's United will adapt to that. There also is a point where money stops giving you returns.