He's put out vague generalities that people have tried to piece together, but nothing really rock solid. He basically has the same plan for the economy, "Trust me, I got this one. I'm going to fix everything."
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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control
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He's put out vague generalities that people have tried to piece together, but nothing really rock solid. He basically has the same plan for the economy, "Trust me, I got this one. I'm going to fix everything."
We're beyond proactive already. Now, if he puts out something concrete, it'll be seen as responding to the current roil. However, since the TPC gave Romney the most beneficial reading of his vague policy and it still looked bad, he'll have to change something significant and that'll meet with resistance from the base/ATR types if it is any more even-handed.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You can't make this shit up
If you're not going to say what you're going to do, then you need to be called out on it, hard. You shouldn't get to hide behind vague generalities when you're running to be a policy maker. Let us know exactly what the fuck you're going to do, or you can die by those generalities.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Also something like 90% of Obama's and Romney's voters are committed to their candidates.
He has disparate ideas related to taxes, but no real 'plan' to speak of.
Essentially:
More income tax cuts for everyone
No capital gains for people under 200k
Ending loopholes/credits (no details on which ones) to help pay for it all.
Then there is that old supply-side magic that the tax cuts will spur on economic activity, therefore helping make it 'revenue neutral'.
TacticalFox88 said:
He's talking about early climate models that have been incorrect (when Lovelock and Hansen were beating the drum). She is talking about a study that found 98% of scientists believe the world is warming and man is the cause.
Two different things. Barbara Boxer is too ignorant to understand.
thezerofire
Banned
I don't think he put out one himself, but didn't he endorse the Ryan one?
I suspect the Olympics will help bury the report either way.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Also it increases the deficit.
Luckily however, Romney is a Republican and deficits don't matter when there's a Republican in the White House, unless there's a Democratic foil you can blame it on like Tip O'Neill.
Why don't you read the source for the claims instead of lobbing blame at Obama?
http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/romney-plan.cfm
They actually went out of their way to be kind to Romney's plan, making it as progressive as possible; they eliminate all tax deductions for the wealthy first, before moving down the to lower income groups. Romney himself is unlikely to be so charitable. And that still results in a tax hike for most people, and cuts for the wealthy.
Yeah, I loved the mini-series on Guns, Germs, and Steel. I need to read the book sometime. Fascinating stuff.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I agree all the way, I am just saying it is hard to look objectively at President Obama's tax comparison app when Romney hasn't said exactly what he is going to do.
What little Romney has said on the subject doesn't allow them to make such definitive arguments. He is a born flip-flopper, he could release a tax plan drastically different than anything he has alluded to and then these figures would be way off. I just hope that there are a hell of a lot of asterisks in the tax calculator app.
Senator Daniel Inouye had this to say about Representative Kelly's comparison of contraceptive access to 9/11 and Pearl Harbor.
This made me do more research in to Inouye's life, and while many here may already know his story, I was amazed by it. He was a medical volunteer during Pearl Harbor, and although he was of Japanese ancestry (a high crime during that time), served in the US Military during World War II. Here is an except of his service:
Inouye was promoted to the rank of sergeant within his first year, and he was given the role of platoon leader. He served in Italy in 1944 during the Rome-Arno Campaign before his regiment was transferred to the Vosges Mountains region of France, where he spent two weeks in the battle to relieve the Lost Battalion, a battalion of the 141st Infantry Regiment that was surrounded by German forces. He was promoted to the rank of second lieutenant for his actions there. At one point while he was leading an attack, a shot struck him in the chest directly above his heart, but the bullet was stopped by the two silver dollars he happened to have stacked in his shirt pocket.[8] He continued to carry the coins throughout the war in his shirt pocket as good luck charms until he lost them shortly before the battle in which he lost his arm.[9]
Inouye as a Lieutenant in the U.S. ArmyOn April 21, 1945, Inouye was grievously wounded while leading an assault on a heavily-defended ridge near San Terenzo in Tuscany, Italy called Colle Musatello. The ridge served as a strongpoint along the strip of German fortifications known as the Gothic Line, which represented the last and most dogged line of German defensive works in Italy. As he led his platoon in a flanking maneuver, three German machine guns opened fire from covered positions just 40 yards away, pinning his men to the ground. Inouye stood up to attack and was shot in the stomach; ignoring his wound, he proceeded to attack and destroy the first machine gun nest with hand grenades and fire from his M1 Thompson submachine gun. After being informed of the severity of his wound by his platoon sergeant, he refused treatment and rallied his men for an attack on the second machine gun position, which he also successfully destroyed before collapsing from blood loss.
As his squad distracted the third machine gunner, Inouye crawled toward the final bunker, eventually drawing within 10 yards. As he raised himself up and cocked his arm to throw his last grenade into the fighting position, a German inside fired a rifle grenade that struck him on the right elbow, severing most of his arm and leaving his own primed grenade reflexively "clenched in a fist that suddenly didn't belong to me anymore".[10] Inouye's horrified soldiers moved to his aid, but he shouted for them to keep back out of fear his severed fist would involuntarily relax and drop the grenade. As the German inside the bunker reloaded his rifle, Inouye managed to pry the live grenade from his useless right hand and transfer it to his left. As the German aimed his rifle to finish him off, Inouye managed at last to toss the grenade off-hand into the bunker and destroy it. He stumbled to his feet and continued forward, silencing the last German resistance with a one-handed burst from his Thompson before being wounded in the leg and tumbling unconscious to the bottom of the ridge. When he awoke to see the concerned men of his platoon hovering over him, his only comment before being carried away was to gruffly order them to return to their positions, since, as he pointed out, "nobody called off the war!"[11]
The remainder of Inouye's mutilated right arm was later amputated at a field hospital without proper anesthesia, as he had been given too much morphine at an aid station and it was feared any more would lower his blood pressure enough to kill him.[12]
For comparison, Representative Kelly has served no time in the military, but instead went to Notre Dame and then returned home to take over his father's used car dealership, which he has successfully expanded.
This made me do more research in to Inouye's life, and while many here may already know his story, I was amazed by it. He was a medical volunteer during Pearl Harbor, and although he was of Japanese ancestry (a high crime during that time), served in the US Military during World War II. Here is an except of his service:
Inouye was promoted to the rank of sergeant within his first year, and he was given the role of platoon leader. He served in Italy in 1944 during the Rome-Arno Campaign before his regiment was transferred to the Vosges Mountains region of France, where he spent two weeks in the battle to relieve the Lost Battalion, a battalion of the 141st Infantry Regiment that was surrounded by German forces. He was promoted to the rank of second lieutenant for his actions there. At one point while he was leading an attack, a shot struck him in the chest directly above his heart, but the bullet was stopped by the two silver dollars he happened to have stacked in his shirt pocket.[8] He continued to carry the coins throughout the war in his shirt pocket as good luck charms until he lost them shortly before the battle in which he lost his arm.[9]
Inouye as a Lieutenant in the U.S. ArmyOn April 21, 1945, Inouye was grievously wounded while leading an assault on a heavily-defended ridge near San Terenzo in Tuscany, Italy called Colle Musatello. The ridge served as a strongpoint along the strip of German fortifications known as the Gothic Line, which represented the last and most dogged line of German defensive works in Italy. As he led his platoon in a flanking maneuver, three German machine guns opened fire from covered positions just 40 yards away, pinning his men to the ground. Inouye stood up to attack and was shot in the stomach; ignoring his wound, he proceeded to attack and destroy the first machine gun nest with hand grenades and fire from his M1 Thompson submachine gun. After being informed of the severity of his wound by his platoon sergeant, he refused treatment and rallied his men for an attack on the second machine gun position, which he also successfully destroyed before collapsing from blood loss.
As his squad distracted the third machine gunner, Inouye crawled toward the final bunker, eventually drawing within 10 yards. As he raised himself up and cocked his arm to throw his last grenade into the fighting position, a German inside fired a rifle grenade that struck him on the right elbow, severing most of his arm and leaving his own primed grenade reflexively "clenched in a fist that suddenly didn't belong to me anymore".[10] Inouye's horrified soldiers moved to his aid, but he shouted for them to keep back out of fear his severed fist would involuntarily relax and drop the grenade. As the German inside the bunker reloaded his rifle, Inouye managed to pry the live grenade from his useless right hand and transfer it to his left. As the German aimed his rifle to finish him off, Inouye managed at last to toss the grenade off-hand into the bunker and destroy it. He stumbled to his feet and continued forward, silencing the last German resistance with a one-handed burst from his Thompson before being wounded in the leg and tumbling unconscious to the bottom of the ridge. When he awoke to see the concerned men of his platoon hovering over him, his only comment before being carried away was to gruffly order them to return to their positions, since, as he pointed out, "nobody called off the war!"[11]
The remainder of Inouye's mutilated right arm was later amputated at a field hospital without proper anesthesia, as he had been given too much morphine at an aid station and it was feared any more would lower his blood pressure enough to kill him.[12]
For comparison, Representative Kelly has served no time in the military, but instead went to Notre Dame and then returned home to take over his father's used car dealership, which he has successfully expanded.
Blergmeister
Member
I'm pretty sure the tax plan that Romney is getting hammered on now is based off two things he definately proposed:
- 20% cut on all tax rates.
- Revenue neutral based off of fixing loopholes and deductions.
The study basically started with the specific 20% cut. Then they started at gutting all the tax breaks starting with those targetting the wealthy and working their way down to breaks targetting the middle class, etc (Edit: until it was revenue neutral). After this they calculated what everyones adjusted tax rate would be and found that even with the deductions starting at the rich as the first to be closed, the rich still had an overall tax cut while the middle class had their taxes rise.
This is what I gathered off of watching the news real quick and could be off.
- 20% cut on all tax rates.
- Revenue neutral based off of fixing loopholes and deductions.
The study basically started with the specific 20% cut. Then they started at gutting all the tax breaks starting with those targetting the wealthy and working their way down to breaks targetting the middle class, etc (Edit: until it was revenue neutral). After this they calculated what everyones adjusted tax rate would be and found that even with the deductions starting at the rich as the first to be closed, the rich still had an overall tax cut while the middle class had their taxes rise.
This is what I gathered off of watching the news real quick and could be off.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
There is no way in hell that Romney will propose any plan that raises taxes on anyone. You guys are deluded if you think that a guy who is constantly kowtowing to the right will raise taxes or even propose them. If he does like what he did in MA, where he closed loopholes to collect more, than it will most likely affect those who do what he does with his money: offshore accounts, and so on. Middle class is not getting a tax increase by either party, regardless of how necessary an increase is.
Have you checked the page? There's a nice large section underneath the calculator talking how it works. It makes a lot of assumptions and tells you exactly how they factor Romney's vague bullshit into it. IMO, it's being a bit kind as well.
Yep.
It seems too evil to be true, so a lot of people don't believe it. You need to devote significant time and effort to repeating the message over a period of months as an official talking point for people to start to believe it (Bad example since it was a lie, but the "Obamacare cuts $500B in benefits from medicare!" is such a case)
But that's the point. They (surrogates of Obama) will keep propagating this idea until Romney actually comes out and defines what he wants to do. Then they have more material to attack/pick apart.
This is the likely reality. But even then, it would be an uphill climb to enact anything remotely close to what he wants. That's always the caveat in these type of discussions. What a President wants and what he gets (from Congress) are often wildly different.
No, it's very easy to refute that.
Point to the swift boat attack ads (a man who served his country in vietnam and received a bronze star, a silver star, and 3 purple hearts for his service was painted as unpatriotic), how health directives and wills were painted as death panels, and how the republicans have said that Obama "doesn't believe in America/freedom" (This is the one that he could really shine with, since his whole rise was built on hope and optimism for the American spirit).
If the GOP tries to say obama's being dirty, refute it. Point out the lies in the GOP's statements and the truths in Obama's. Turn the argument back on it's head, that "playing dirty" is distorting the truth and lying, not bringing up problems in your opponent's platform.
Yet this is what he has done, based on the released details of his plan. If Romney's intent is to not do this, the burden is on Romney to show it. All the Tax Policy Center did is take Romney's stated policies and run the numbers on them.
You are expressing a lot of outrage, but you should direct it to Romney.
BADASS
just sent him a note of support. Kelly is a shitbag.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Is it confirmed the jobs report comes out tomorrow, or will it be delayed to gather more data? That has happened before when the first Friday happened so early in a month
el retorno
Member
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I read the report and where Romney says, "closed loopholes", they must assume: "No interest deduction or child tax credit" which then leads to higher taxes. In reality who knows what Romney is suggesting by "closing loopholes." It could mean "no more writing off car registration fees", which no way in hell would overtake a 20% drop in tax rate, however asinine that figure is anyway.
Hell, President Obama's ad proclaims "Romney made 20 mil in 2010, he paid 14%, probably less than you."
Unless the ad was running on Bloomberg TV, Fox Business Channel, and CNBC, that "probably" is really irksome. Romney still paid a higher tax rate than most Americans. The ad could and should have said, "he paid 14% less than tens of millions of Americans." More effective than that garbage "probably less than you," and more truthy, too.
Lies of any sort in the campaign bother me, I am not one to argue semantics, I just get irked that Obama has to take the low road because so many Americans fall victim to mudslinging. Romney we already know is the most dishonest presidential candidate in a LONG LONG TIME. Obama doesn't need to join him.
Citizens United era kinda makes that impossible to do.
cartoon_soldier
Member
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I know, but when his commercials say "I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message" than he can't point fingers at the other dirty players for or against his campaign. I have mentioned a few times before how I have always enjoyed him as a politician and a speaker, but this kind of stuff further destroys the mystique of Obama.
RustyNails
Member
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I know, in our American hearts, we were all pulling for Rafalca.
Daniel Inouye is a BAMF, holy shit.
The best part is actually the next paragraph, where it explains that once they removed the rest of his arm he went back into the war for two more years.
But yeah. There's a reason why Inouye has been a Hawaiian congressman since Hawaii had congressmen.
RustyNails
Member
Reading Senator Inoye's story made me teary eyed.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Same...for more reasons than one...
thezerofire
Banned
read the whole thing, and the end is almost insulting. "Not much different from gymnastics," give me a break.
electricpirate
Member
thatsthepoint.gif
You can't get to Romney's stated goals without raising taxes on the middle class. If he decides that he can't handle that and drops his vaugue loophole closings, then he is much weaker when attacking Obama on the deficit, and also it looks like he's sacrificing the future solvency of america to give tax cuts to rich people. If he comes out with an all new tax scheme, he furthers the narrative as an unprincipled flip flopper. He's painted himself into a corner, any way he goes will hurt his arguments in some important way.
Black Mamba
Member
It has to be the EITC, mortgage, and child tax credits, etc. There's no way to reduce the deductions enough to get to revenue-neutrality without it.
Romney has said he'd cut marginal rates by 20%. He then said he'd broaden the base (only real way to do that is eliminate EITC) and cut credits to make it revenue neutral.
The study posted yesterday cuts credits by going for the best case scenario to do so for middle class and lower class people.
Again, not that it matters. You don't need to know anything about the tax plan other than "cut top rate by 20%" "not raise capital gains/dividends" and "revenue-neutral" to know it will add taxes to everyone not upper class. It's mathematically impossible not to.
Blergmeister
Member
That is the thing, the report made all assumptions in favor for the middle and lower classes when running the numbers. It still came out negative for them.
Frank the Great
Banned
yeah, it's impossible to "broaden the base" without raising taxes on everyone. could be offset by a huge drop in the marginal rate, but there goes any revenue neutrality.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
In 2000, Bush campaigned on a tax plan that would completely pay off the deficit in ten years.
An interesting profile (FROM THE FUTURE) of Paul Ryan, in the New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/06/120806fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all
A claim that Obama deliberately set out to promote Ryan as the wonk face of the Republican Party strikes me as pretty eight-dimensional chess, but it's an interesting theory. His budget plan has certainly become an inextricable part of the GOP platform at this point, third rails and all.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/06/120806fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all
ryan lizza said:
A claim that Obama deliberately set out to promote Ryan as the wonk face of the Republican Party strikes me as pretty eight-dimensional chess, but it's an interesting theory. His budget plan has certainly become an inextricable part of the GOP platform at this point, third rails and all.
ryan lizza said:
Black Republican
Member
cant be bothered to post it, but se cupp realllllly wants paul ryan as vp, sounds like shes gonna cry if portman is chose, heh
The danger of picking Paul Ryan is that, unlike Romney, Ryan is a wonk and will probably actually want to give specifics and talk about policy, which is very dangerous since his policies are not actually popular with anybody.
Portman is really the obvious tactically conservative choice, because Ohio is very important, and his biggest weakness -- the Bush stuff -- isn't that well-known because of how boring he is. A well-run campaign would probably snatch him up.
For that reason I expect to see Rick Santorum on the ticket.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Every jobs report before the election (July's, August's, September's, October's) is scheduled to come out on the first Friday. The delays are a pretty uncommon occurrence.
We'll actually get the October report before the election.
Hah. I hadn't seen anything about direct, concrete involvement before. Mitt's such an ass for throwing his wife under the bus and pretending to have nothing to do with the whole thing.
I think they're just talking about how different moves are strung together into one routine, not talking about the athleticism or anything. I think you're reading into it.
Beer Monkey
Member
I don't really know nuttin' about horse ballet, though I do pick the music that it is choreographed to.
No way does he pick Rick, just think about the bumper stickers: Romney Santorum
Besides I think it was confirmed he wasn't on the short list, or being vetted or anything. Picking him would be like picking Palin, except without the boobs. Well he is a boob but you get the idea.
They'll pick Portman for the exact reasons you listed: no one knows who he is. Do no harm. Considering how well the Romney campaign is run though....
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