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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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W

werks

Banned
Oblivion said:
Okay srsly, while I definitely don't think there's any comparison between what Reid's doing and Obama's BC, or his college grades or whatever, I fear that this is kind of a slippery slope. One of the main reasons why I stick with the Dems is BECAUSE they don't lie (as much). If everybody starts making shit up, then who can you trust?

Who, I ask you, GAF?

WHO?!
Click to expand...
Speak for yourself, I don't need a political party to tell me whats true. But in this 2 party system we are stuck with, I need the political party most aligned with me to win.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Oblivion said:
The fact that liberals support Reid playing dirty while they would have been screaming from the rooftops if a conservative did the same thing proves liberals are a million times worse hypocrites.
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Pffft.

If the shoe were on the other foot, the liberals would not be complaining about the allegation, they would instead be saying "Yeah, Obama probably should release more years of his tax return . . . it is tradition, fair, and what his father did."
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Tim-E said:
Just now on the NBC Nightly News, Chuck Todd said that the short list for Romney is now Pawlenty, Portman, and Paul Ryan and that Ryan is "higher on that list than Washington insiders may think."

Chuck Todd channeling his 2008 self and getting me all hot and bothered. Ryan would be a disaster for trying to attract independents.
Click to expand...

Your getting my hopes up for a comedy election. Don't do this to me guys.
 
J

Jackson50

Member
Rocket Scientist said:
Wow you guys are pussies. Reid's the man.

Stop kidding yourselves men, you know you're all giddy about what he's doing. Don't have to be all pc on GAF.
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There's nothing effete about deploring knavish behavior. And, no. I'm not giddy.
Tim-E said:
Just now on the NBC Nightly News, Chuck Todd said that the short list for Romney is now Pawlenty, Portman, and Paul Ryan and that Ryan is "higher on that list than Washington insiders may think."

Chuck Todd channeling his 2008 self and getting me all hot and bothered. Ryan would be a disaster for trying to attract independents.
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I'm confident Romney will reject Ryan. But if he wants to accentuate the Ryan budget, be my guest.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Politifact said:
@mattyglesias We never said "lie." We said Reid provided no evidence and our reporting found no evidence.
Click to expand...

Politfact gave Reid a "Pants on Fire" rating for his accusation.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Pretty much. Though I think it's worth noting that Obama floated the line shortly before Reid did. I can't find the link, but the TPM editor's blog noted it, a day or so before Reid cranked up the attack.
Click to expand...

They've been talking about an approach like this for a while, actually.

pigeon said:
The "maybe Romney didn't pay any taxes at all in 2009" trial balloon in the Obama ad earlier is now being floated at a couple of left-wing blogs.

Mother Jones: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/07/mystery-mitt-romneys-lame-defense-his-bain-years
Joshua Green at Bloomberg: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-17/whats-romney-hiding-in-his-tax-returns
Start Making Sense: http://danshaviro.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-wont-romney-release-his-2009-tax.html

Could just be hysteria. Or it could be CHICAGO STYLE seed-sowing.
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But I didn't anticipate Reid being the one with the ax.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
C'mon Romney, pick Ryan.

It makes it easier for Democrats to win the House by having Ryan be a national figure, similar to how Republicans attacked Democrats in 2010 for the "Pelosi-Reid agenda."

Rocket Scientist said:
What do you guys think of the Petraeus for VP thing?
Click to expand...
Clinton-Petraeus 2016
 
C

ClassyPenguin

Banned
Averon said:
http://bureaucountydems.blogspot.com/2012/08/government-employment-at-lowest-level.html

Government Employment At Lowest Level Since 1968

governmentemploymentlowestsince1968.png
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Govt is not a job creator, don't you know.


I want to form a punk band called Job Kreator. First album would be "corporations have feelings too"

On Reid: I don't approve of what he is doing but the amount of hyperbole and lies that the Tea Party spreads against Obama, it makes it seem like child's play.
 
T

tranciful

Member
Between declaring residency in his son's unfinished basement, having millions in an IRA capped at $5k a year, and his other tax shenanigans -- I'd say the burden of proof is on Romney. We already know he plays shady games with taxes -- we just don't know how deep it goes.
 
C

Chumly

Member
Oblivion said:
Politfact gave Reid a "Pants on Fire" rating for his accusation.
Click to expand...

lol what a joke. "they found no evidence" are you freaking kidding me? You can't be calling someone a "lier" basically if you have no idea if its true or not. More like Politifact is trying to stay on the jockstrap of the GOP.


Even republicans have called for Romney to release his records. Democrats would have done the same thing to Obama if he didn't release his. I think its pretty clear at this point his tax returns so bad it would ruin his run for president. If you put it with all of the weird comments like how romney "paid a lot of taxes". Uh.......... If he paid federal income taxes why didn't he just say it. Not like he would have anything to hide......unless he does have something to hide.
 
B

BigBoss

Member
Tim-E said:
Just now on the NBC Nightly News, Chuck Todd said that the short list for Romney is now Pawlenty, Portman, and Paul Ryan and that Ryan is "higher on that list than Washington insiders may think."

Chuck Todd channeling his 2008 self and getting me all hot and bothered. Ryan would be a disaster for trying to attract independents.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't surprise me if they selected Portman, his staff has been really busy editing his wikipedia page, I believe they've made 16 edits today.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Romney recounts story about how his dad got free McDonald's for life
Speaking at a fund-raising event in Chicago, the presumptive GOP nominee relayed a story about finding a special coupon in his dad's drawer.

"I found a little paper card, a little pink card, and it said, 'This entitles George W. Romney to a lifetime of a hamburger, a shake and French fries at McDonald's.' It was signed by the hand of Ray Kroc. My dad had done a little training lesson or whatever for McDonald's when there was just a handful of restaurants and I saw this thing and was like, this is a gold mine, dad! What are you doing?"

Romney said he laminated the card for his father, who he said went "almost every day" to McDonald's for either a hamburger or a fish sandwich.

"He would present this little card and of course the person behind the counter would look and say, 'Well, what is that?' They'd never seen something like that, but he said it was never turned down. They always honored it," Romney said.
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as free lunch, unless you're a Romney!

Also, Romney steps in it.
(CNN) – America's economic engine is fueled by individuals working hard, Mitt Romney said Tuesday, not by a government-run cooperative akin to a kibbutz.

"It's individuals and their entrepreneurship which have driven America," Romney said at a fund-raising event at Maggiano's Little Italy in Chicago. "What America is not a collective where we all work in a kibbutz or we all in some little entity, instead it's individuals pursuing their dreams and building successful enterprises which employ others and they become inspired as they see what has happened in the place they work and go off and start their own enterprises."

– Follow the Ticker on Twitter: @PoliticalTicker

While Romney has often touted the importance of private sector job creators in his stump speech, the 'kibbutz' line in Tuesday's remarks is not a frequent part of his campaign rhetoric. It comes the week after Romney returned from a three-country foreign swing that included a stop in Israel, the home of the collective farms known as kibbutzim.

According to the Kibbutz Program Center, there are currently 270 kibbutzim (the plural of kibbutz) in Israel, with a population of roughly 120,000. That accounts for 2.8% of Israel's population.

While in Israel, Romney praised the economic conditions in the country, comparing the per capita GDP of Israel to the much lower per capita GDP of Palestinian-controlled areas.

Romney, speaking at a fund-raiser in the Jewish state, said higher personal wealth among citizens in Israel was an indication that the country was accomplishing something its neighbors were not.

Citing the book "The Wealth and Poverty of Nations," Romney detailed his interpretation of author David Landes' thesis.

"He says if you can learn anything from the economic history of the world, it's this: culture makes all the difference. Culture makes all the difference. And as I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation, I recognize the power of at least culture and a few other things," Romney said.

That remark that drew sharp criticism from Palestinians, who called it "racist."
Click to expand...
...
 
P

Piecake

Member
tranciful said:
Between declaring residency in his son's unfinished basement, having millions in an IRA capped at $5k a year, and his other tax shenanigans -- I'd say the burden of proof is on Romney. We already know he plays shady games with taxes -- we just don't know how deep it goes.
Click to expand...

How'd he get that much into his IRA anyways? I really dont understand how he did it
 
T

tranciful

Member
Piecake said:
How'd he get that much into his IRA anyways? I really dont understand how he did it
Click to expand...

I skimmed it, so this might be wrong, but I think you dump a shit load of stock valued at almost nothing. Then the stock represents its real value later and bam, a boatload of tax free investment.
 
P

Piecake

Member
tranciful said:
I skimmed it, so this might be wrong, but I think you dump a shit load of stock valued at almost nothing. Then the stock represents its real value later and bam, a boatload of tax free investment.
Click to expand...

That makes no sense to me.

I mean, if he simply got that much money in his IRA through investments i wouldnt have a problem with it (highly unlikely), but if he put in more capital per year than allowed or did some fancy accounting thing only available to rich white men, id be pretty pissed
 
A

Arde5643

Member
Piecake said:
That makes no sense to me.

I mean, if he simply got that much money in his IRA through investments i wouldnt have a problem with it (highly unlikely), but if he put in more capital per year than allowed or did some fancy accounting thing only available to rich white men, id be pretty pissed
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It's Romney - assume the latter.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Piecake said:
That makes no sense to me.

I mean, if he simply got that much money in his IRA through investments i wouldnt have a problem with it (highly unlikely), but if he put in more capital per year than allowed or did some fancy accounting thing only available to rich white men, id be pretty pissed
Click to expand...

Yeah, here's what you have to remember about Romney's IRA:

* He had access to large chunks of stock in various companies that Bain was buying or investing in at cut-rate prices, as well as derivatives based on them (although technically everybody probably had access to the derivatives if they had millions of dollars lying around).
* He had significant knowledge and control over the long-term strategy of those companies, so he knew what direction the stock would head in the long term.
* Because he also had control over the investment approaches, he had various levers to make the stock price go up and down more or less arbitrarily in the short term as well.

If you had those three factors working for you, I'm sure you could build a multi-million dollar portfolio as well.
 
A

Averon

Member
I'm convinced Romney and his staff thinks they can jut coast on anti-Obama sentiment into victory. That's he only thing I see that would example his shitty campaign thus far.
 
P

Piecake

Member
pigeon said:
Yeah, here's what you have to remember about Romney's IRA:

* He had access to large chunks of stock in various companies that Bain was buying or investing in at cut-rate prices, as well as derivatives based on them (although technically everybody probably had access to the derivatives if they had millions of dollars lying around).
* He had significant knowledge and control over the long-term strategy of those companies, so he knew what direction the stock would head in the long term.
* Because he also had control over the investment approaches, he had various levers to make the stock price go up and down more or less arbitrarily in the short term as well.

If you had those three factors working for you, I'm sure you could build a multi-million dollar portfolio as well.
Click to expand...

Ah, insider trading. That makes sense.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Piecake said:
That makes no sense to me.

I mean, if he simply got that much money in his IRA through investments i wouldnt have a problem with it (highly unlikely), but if he put in more capital per year than allowed or did some fancy accounting thing only available to rich white men, id be pretty pissed
Click to expand...

Previous poster pretty much explained it already.

The IRA limit per year is $6000 or so. so say for instance romney has 6000 shares of a certain stock valued at $1. he can deposit that in his IRA and not go over the limit each year.

now, assume by some miracle that this stock grows to hundreds or thousands of times its original value for no particular reason, each year, every year, and one could hypothetically have a hundred million in their IRA.

of course this is extremely shady and a result of the wealthy playing games that the rest of us couldn't begin to touch, but that's mitt romney. Playing within the rules, but only to the barest extent possible.

If his IRA is any indication, his tax returns will be much, MUCH worse.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
RDreamer said:
I... I don't get why in the world he would relay this story at all. Who on his staff told him that was a good idea? I mean it's not terrible or anything I guess, but it sure doesn't help.
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"Look, I'm a middle-class guy who likes to eat McDonald's burgers like all of you! Heck, my dad got free McDonald's for life!"

Relatable Romney strikes again!
 
P

Piecake

Member
Cyan said:
Highly unlikely? It would have required a 50%+ average annual return. 50%. Every year.

For reference, Warren Buffett, considered by many to be the greatest investor of all time, managed a 20% average annual return at Berkshire Hathaway.
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I couldnt remember how many millions are in his IRA. I could conceivably see 1-4 million in an IRA being legit, but anything over that youll need some crazy returns, like you said
 
K

kehs

Banned
So, he's touting a story about freeloading....

"He would present this little card and of course the person behind the counter would look and say, 'Well, what is that?' They'd never seen something like that, but he said it was never turned down. They always honored it," Romney said.
Click to expand...

smh
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Piecake said:
I couldnt remember how many millions are in his IRA. I could conceivably see 1-4 million in an IRA being legit, but anything over that youll need some crazy returns, like you said
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It's over 100 million. Anyone contributing the max amount through legitimate means would struggle to hit $150K or so.

there's really no way to hit those kinds of returns on an IRA without some very, very shady practices.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
RDreamer said:
I... I don't get why in the world he would relay this story at all. Who on his staff told him that was a good idea? I mean it's not terrible or anything I guess, but it sure doesn't help.
Click to expand...

Can't wait til he tries to damage control by saying some of his best banker friends are Jews.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Manmademan said:
It's over 100 million. Anyone contributing the max amount through legitimate means would struggle to hit $150K or so.

there's really no way to hit those kinds of returns on an IRA without some very, very shady practices.
Click to expand...

100 million is absurd. And 1.5 million is definitely doable so long as you contribute the max every year and start in your 20s
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Actually, Rommey could put in $30k into his IRA because it is almost certainly an SEP-IRA


Here's an interesting article:


Like many folks you know, Mitt Romney has an IRA. Unlike most folks you know, Mitt's IRA is worth somewhere between $20.7 million and $101 million. How did it get so big?
How does money get into an IRA? Three ways: 1) deductible and non-deductible contributions; 2) rollovers of distributions from other retirement plans; and 3) investment growth.
Like all taxpayers, Mr. Romney's contributions to the IRA were limited. And he is exactly like us in that he has limits on how much he can contribute to an IRA or to a 401(k) plan that can be rolled into an IRA. For most of the years he worked at Bain Capital, the annual IRA pre-tax contribution was capped at $2,000 and the annual 401(k) pre-tax contribution, including employer match, was capped at $30,000. [Limits in 2012 are 5,000 for an IRA ($6,000 if you over 50) and $16,500 for a 401(k) ($22,000 if you are over 50)]. Given those contribution limits, Mr. Romney's IRA investments must have produced extraordinary returns for his IRA to be now worth between $20.7 and $101 million.

A former Bain Capital partner said that Bain Capital had a 401(k) plan that allowed employees to invest in its deals. Romney's 401(k) was rolled over to his IRA. Apparently the IRA has holdings in Bain Capital, the private equity firm Romney helped to start. Private equity is equity capital that is not quoted on a public stock exchange. It consists of investors and funds that make investments directly into private companies or conduct buyouts of public companies that result in a delisting of public equity. Capital for private equity is raised from institutional investors and accredited investors who can invest large sums of money for long periods of time. Private equity can be used to fund new technologies, expand working capital within an owned company, make acquisitions, or to strengthen a balance sheet.

The Internal Revenue Code provides that any person investing an IRA in a private-equity fund, as Mr. Romney did, would incur a special tax on "unrelated business income" also known as UBIT. This tax, assessed at a maximum 35% rate, is meant to discourage tax-exempt entities such as an IRA, pension plan or endowment fund from unfairly competing with for-profit, taxpaying entities by operating a business without paying taxes on it. Investing in a partnership that uses debt to buy companies would trigger the tax.

Some expert commentators speculate that Mr. Romney uses a strategy involving offshore funds to avoid UBIT. He could have had the IRA invest through an offshore affiliate of the private-equity firm, known as an offshore blocker corporation, which in turn invests the same money in the private-equity partnership. The tax is avoided because the IRA technically is investing in the offshore corporation, not in a private-equity partnership.

Mr. Romney is required by law to begin withdrawing funds from his account beginning in 2017, when he reaches age 70½. Those withdrawals will be treated as ordinary income, which currently is taxed at a maximum federal rate of 35%. (For most Americans, IRAs make sense because their savings are so modest their retirement income won't likely trigger high tax rates.)

Why hasn't Mr. Romney converted his huge traditional IRA to a Roth IRA? In a Roth IRA, funds are contributed after tax, but then grow with no further tax liability, and are distributed to the ultimate beneficiary with no tax liability. He could convert his traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by paying income tax on the balance of the whole IRA account in the year of conversion. That would be excellent estate planning if the IRA goes to family members. The huge income tax he would pay on conversion is out of his estate and the family will receive the entire IRA income-tax free.

The current top tax rate on the conversion would be 35%. Since converting your traditional IRA to a Roth is essentially a bet on future tax rates, maybe Mr. Romney expects tax rates to be lower in the future. Most people think, or at last fear, that taxes will be higher later.

On the other hand, Mr. Romney has a record of being a generous charitable donor. Perhaps, he plans to give his IRA to charity. Charities could receive all of the IRA and there would be no income tax and no estate tax. That would be a huge win for charity.
Click to expand...

He probably also listed some capital as pennies on the dollar, like Dominoe's stock for 1 cent a stock and then when they went public in 2004, instant bajillions.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Piecake said:
That makes no sense to me.

I mean, if he simply got that much money in his IRA through investments i wouldnt have a problem with it (highly unlikely), but if he put in more capital per year than allowed or did some fancy accounting thing only available to rich white men, id be pretty pissed
Click to expand...
You put in $6000 worth of stock that is valued at a penny per share. So you only put in $6000 of stock in.

Then the stock magically goes to $100 per share (because you knew it was really worth much more). Boom . . . suddenly your IRA is worth $60 Million after you only put in "$6000" in it.

And all that gain is tax-free! Yeah!

Oh what fun it is to be a rich guy with inside information!
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
speculawyer said:
You put in $6000 worth of stock that is valued at a penny per share. So you only put in $6000 of stock in.

Then the stock magically goes to $100 per share (because you knew it was really worth much more). Boom . . . suddenly your IRA is worth $60 Million after you only put in "$6000" in it.

And all that gain is tax-free! Yeah!

Oh what fun it is to be a rich guy with inside information!
Click to expand...

...no words.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
speculawyer said:
You put in $6000 worth of stock that is valued at a penny per share. So you only put in $6000 of stock in.

Then the stock magically goes to $100 per share (because you knew it was really worth much more). Boom . . . suddenly your IRA is worth $60 Million after you only put in "$6000" in it.

And all that gain is tax-free! Yeah!

Oh what fun it is to be a rich guy with inside information!
Click to expand...

Romney could have invest $450k in his IRA.

If he values everything at 20% of their true value, then he put in $2.25 million. They'd only have to go up 44 times to hit $100 million. 10 times to hi $20 million. No longer crazy.

Change the number to 10% and it's even easier. It wouldn't even have to hit $100 a share. Hitting even $20 a share could be enough to pull this off.
 
E

el retorno

Member
speculawyer said:
You put in $6000 worth of stock that is valued at a penny per share. So you only put in $6000 of stock in.

Then the stock magically goes to $100 per share (because you knew it was really worth much more). Boom . . . suddenly your IRA is worth $60 Million after you only put in "$6000" in it.

And all that gain is tax-free! Yeah!

Oh what fun it is to be a rich guy with inside information!
Click to expand...

Seriously. His words about the middle class piss me off and make me physically angry.

This man doesn't understand most people don't have access to his world and his security but goes on talking about how he understands small business and middle class troubles. Its sickening.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Piecake said:
100 million is absurd. And 1.5 million is definitely doable so long as you contribute the max every year and start in your 20s
Click to expand...

That's the thing. the max is currently $6000, but when romney was in his 20s it was far lower. The max contribution limit in 2000 was only $3000, in 1981 it was $2000, and before that it was around $1500.

There is no way for romney to get anywhere NEAR $1 million in a traditional IRA using conventional means, and he has over 100 times that.
 
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