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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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J

Jackson50

Member
eznark said:
So what do the other open senate races look like around the country? Assuming Thompson wins (as you really probably should...the only real attacks on him are that he isn't conservative enough which will help him in Wisconsin) what does the Senate look like? Is there a chance the GOP takes it?
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Democratic control is imperiled. It's probably a coin flip. They will certainly lose Nebraska, and McCaskill is behind in Missouri. Then, they only need to flip two contests out of FL, MT, ND, WI, and VA. They desperately need to flip MA and convince the independent from ME to caucus with them. Both would be a considerable boon for the Democrats.
el retorno de los sapos said:
The Warren court upheld poll taxes until the 24th amendment. That's the best way to attack these. Argue that they are indirect taxes on voting. Or is that what they are doing?
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They've attempted to frame the problem as a psuedo poll tax. But the argument has failed for two reasons. First, whereas a poll tax's only purpose was to disenfranchise, the voter ID provisions seem to protect the legitimate public interest of a lawful vote. Second, voter IDs are usually distributed for free. So the cost of procuring identification is more ambiguous.
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Chichikov said:
She's a terrible writer and a horrible philosopher (subjective opinion I know, but I'll go 12 rounds with anyone who wants to defend Objectivism, 12 boring ass rounds...).

She's important because she justify and celebrate selfishness and greed.
And people who are selfish and greedy (which we all are to a degree) love that message more than the "no no no" they hear from pretty much every other philosophy and religion.

Also, her books are filled with blame shifting, you see it's not your fault for not succeeding, it's those moochers and parasites slowing you down.
But one day, oh you'll show them, oh yeah, they'll all be sorry!

This is a message that appeal to many people, especially young.
Click to expand...

Care to give a few bullet points on the suckiness of Objectivism? The horribleness of her writing is enough to turn me off of ever trying to delve in and scrutinize it on a philosophical level.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Triggers hilarious venom filled reactions in Liberals too.

My dad loved a couple of her books (Atlus Shrugged and fountain something), but couldn't be further from her politics than anyone else.

These days if you even admit to reading her books and not condemning them you tend to get rocks chucked at you. lol
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I can tell you why she personally bothers me -- and it really isn't related to politics. Ideas and good writing are, by their nature, difficult things to quantify. That doesn't mean that good writing and bad writing don't exist; it means they're simply difficult to measure.

Generally speaking, I find two distinct behaviors very irritating when discussing bad writing/ideas:

1) I really dislike when people use "big words" or "science" words to sound intelligent, when anyone with enough knowledge on the subject knows that the person is a charlatan. It's not obvious to the layman, though, which is why this can be so insidious. A great example of this which is easier to quantify would be "alternative" medicines, which use just enough science-ish words to sound legitimate to the untrained eye, then they find one quack doctor to support their theories, and boom, only a properly trained expert on the topic would know the difference. Both "sides" have doctors. Both "sides" have sciency sounding language. How would a random person know the difference?

For the record, this does not at all mean I'm against the use of "big words." It means I'm against their use just to sound smart, instead of using them because they actually precisely and exquisitely describe the situation at hand.

2) Second, I hate when people take patently juvenile ideas or literature and prop it up as serious. How do we know, for example, that Brothers Karamazov is a more serious, complex work than Spider Man Issue 431? There is no obvious way to measure it, even if most can reasonably know that it is. But every once in a while, you do indeed find someone who thinks Metal Gear Solid is deeply philosophical, or that My Little Pony represents a serious critique of modern existence, or that Ayn Rand was an important thinker.

This does not mean that all of those things are bad, mind you. Apparently My Little Pony appeals to some people. Metal Gear Solid is a fun game. Ayn Rand was interested to read in 7th grade (which is indeed when I read Atlas Shrugged). Judy Bloom was great in 4th grade. All of these have their place, but I find it particularly irritating when people try to hold these sorts of things up as serious, highly sophisticated intellectual works when they clearly are not. They rely on the fact that we don't have an "idea complexity-o-meter" to properly gauge which ideas are facile and juvenile and which are not. As if to say "because we don't have the tools to prove that R.L. Stein is less sophisticated than Cervantes, therefore he isn't."
 
D

Dram

Member
Measley said:
Obama's about to get swift-boated;
http://news.yahoo.com/special-ops-group-attacks-obama-over-bin-laden-011757844.html

Now personally, I don't remember Obama ever taking credit for killing Bin Laden, outside of saying that he gave the order for the SEAL team to go in. Of course, if the mission was a massive failure, I bet Obama would get all the blame for it.

Anyway, the Obama team better get ready to combat this. It's going to be a broadside attack on his foreign policy chops.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/15/us-usa-campaign-binladen-ad-idUSBRE87E01F20120815

The president of Special Operations OPSEC Education Fund Inc, Scott Taylor, is a former Navy SEAL who in 2010 ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for a congressional seat in Virginia.

Calling itself "OPSEC" for short - which in spy jargon means "operational security" - the anti-leak group incorporated last June in Delaware, a state that has the most secretive corporate registration rules in the U.S.

It also set itself up as a nonprofit organization under section 501(c)4 of the U.S. Tax Code, allowing it to keep donors' identities secret. Spokesmen for the group declined to discuss its sources of financing.

Chad Kolton, a former spokesman for the office of Director of National Intelligence during the George W. Bush administration who now represents OPSEC, also said the group's message and make-up are nonpolitical.
Click to expand...
 
M

markatisu

Member
I am confused as to what Obama's team needs to get ready for? He gave the order, he is not trying to deny that.

I just do not see how saying someone gloating about killing one of the most heinous villains for Americans and any kind of bad thing.

But hey if they want to dump all their money into that so be it, elections were made for stupid people to spend
 
G

gcubed

Member
Jackson50 said:
Democratic control is imperiled. It's probably a coin flip. They will certainly lose Nebraska, and McCaskill is behind in Missouri. Then, they only need to flip two contests out of FL, MT, ND, WI, and VA. They desperately need to flip MA and convince the independent from ME to caucus with them. Both would be a considerable boon for the Democrats.They've attempted to frame the problem as a psuedo poll tax. But the argument has failed for two reasons. First, whereas a poll tax's only purpose was to disenfranchise, the voter ID provisions seem to protect the legitimate public interest of a lawful vote. Second, voter IDs are usually distributed for free. So the cost of procuring identification is more ambiguous.
Click to expand...

PA has a free option, the only argument i can see if oppurtunity cost. If you dont have a valid form of ID to get the photo ID you need to go to the DMV, fill out a few forms that need to be submitted to the department of health, or records or whatever to verify your status in the state, then you get a letter saying you are approved, then you have to go back to the DMV with that letter to get your photo ID. Its 2 days wasted.
 
F

Farmboy

Member
Nate revealed his (preliminary) senate forcast.

The battle for control of the Senate looks like a tossup, just as it did in May. In fact, if I were given just one guess at the composition of the new Senate, I would go with this: 50 Republicans, 49 Democrats and one independent, the former governor of Maine, Angus King.
Click to expand...

Ouch. I know King is basically a Democrat at heart so if Biden is VP they still sort-of have a majority, but still: that's a bit closer than I was hoping.
 
E

eznark

Banned
markatisu said:
I am confused as to what Obama's team needs to get ready for? He gave the order, he is not trying to deny that.

I just do not see how saying someone gloating about killing one of the most heinous villains for Americans and any kind of bad thing.

But hey if they want to dump all their money into that so be it, elections were made for stupid people to spend
Click to expand...

You don't think a 22 minute attack ad will resonate with the people?
 
C

codhand

Member
Opiate said:
I can tell you why she personally bothers me -- and it really isn't related to politics. Ideas and good writing are, by their nature, difficult things to quantify. That doesn't mean that good writing and bad writing don't exist; it means they're simply difficult to measure.

This does not mean that all of those things are bad, mind you. Apparently My Little Pony appeals to some people. Metal Gear Solid is a fun game. Ayn Rand was interested to read in 7th grade (which is indeed when I read Atlas Shrugged). Judy Bloom was great in 4th grade. All of these have their place, but I find it particularly irritating when people try to hold these sorts of things up as serious, highly sophisticated intellectual works when they clearly are not. They rely on the fact that we don't have an "idea complexity-o-meter" to properly gauge which ideas are facile and juvenile and which are not. As if to say "because we don't have the tools to prove that R.L. Stein is less sophisticated than Cervantes, therefore he isn't."
Click to expand...

Sounds like a complaint over demagoguery, which Rand is definitely guilty of.


Opiate said:
1) I really dislike when people use "big words" or "science" words to sound intelligent, when anyone with enough knowledge on the subject knows that the person is a charlatan. It's not obvious to the layman, though, which is why this can be so insidious. A great example of this which is easier to quantify would be "alternative" medicines, which use just enough science-ish words to sound legitimate to the untrained eye, then they find one quack doctor to support their theories, and boom, only a properly trained expert on the topic would know the difference. Both "sides" have doctors. Both "sides" have sciency sounding language. How would a random person know the difference?
Click to expand...

This reminds me of Bill Mahr's comments today pointing out that Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan have the same views on everything despite the public's perception that they possess polar opposite degrees of intelligence. Ryan has a more "articulate" approach than Palin, but at the end of the day, the ideas still stink.
 
O

Opiate

Member
eznark said:
Shots fired, Jackson50.
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Not necessarily. As stated, "big words" very much have a place, but it depends on how they are used. Sometimes, people use them simply to sound smart; that is not good. But in other cases, people use large words because they have ever so slightly different meanings than their simpler synonyms, and you are making precise, specific point that requires precise language.

Let's take a randomly chosen word in my head, "cantankerous." Generally, it means to be disagreeable. However, it conventionally has a hint of "crotchety" and "stodgy" to it as well, typically referring to an old man who is set in his ways and who resents any attempt to change them.

If I use the word in a way where I specifically choose to use it because that particular shade or connotation is important to my argument, that's a good thing; by contrast, if I use it as a direct replacement for "disagreeable" all the time in all contexts simply because it sounds smarter, then that is a bad thing.

I have not read enough of Jackson's posts to know which side he falls on. What I can say is that people who abuse big words -- that is, use them just to sound smart -- do a great disservice to those of us who use them because they have slightly different meanings which are important to precise thinking and communication.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Also, how has Obama gloated about killing Bin Laden? What president wouldn't mention the death of the country's largest boogeyman when discussing the progress of the war on terror?
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Care to give a few bullet points on the suckiness of Objectivism? The horribleness of her writing is enough to turn me off of ever trying to delve in and scrutinize it on a philosophical level.
Click to expand...
Not until you change your avatar to be transparent dammit.
White on off white makes chichikov angry!

But seriously, I posted about it few times on GAF, (like here).

I like to argue (I think that should be obvious by now) so if someone want defend it, I'll happily do the dance (and man, arguing against objectivism is easy mode) but I'm not sure I feel motivated enough to make a coherent and thorough assault on that philosophy.
 
G

gcubed

Member
markatisu said:
I am confused as to what Obama's team needs to get ready for? He gave the order, he is not trying to deny that.

I just do not see how saying someone gloating about killing one of the most heinous villains for Americans and any kind of bad thing.

But hey if they want to dump all their money into that so be it, elections were made for stupid people to spend
Click to expand...

exactly... I do love though how the military is a huge black spot for tea partiers. Get your government out of everything!! Except the military, i want that shit as secret and sinister as possible!
 
J

Jooney

Member
markatisu said:
I am confused as to what Obama's team needs to get ready for? He gave the order, he is not trying to deny that.
Click to expand...

The GOP is pissy because there was an Obama ad at the first anniversary of OBL's death that suggested that Romney would not have made the call to go after OBL (based on a statement he had previously).
 
M

markatisu

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Also, how has Obama gloated about killing Bin Laden? What president wouldn't mention the death of the country's largest boogeyman when discussing the progress of the war on terror?
Click to expand...

Not to mention we are not so far removed from this

220px-Bush_mission_accomplished.jpg


I mean his gloating was basically giving a press conference and that saying it a few times on the campaign trail and an ad just pointing out that nobody else was going to do it. George Bush basically had a Mardi Gras level spectacle for a war we did not even win
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Chichikov said:
Not until you change your avatar to be transparent dammit.
White on off white makes chichikov angry!

But seriously, I posted about it few times on GAF, (like here).

I like to argue (I think that should be obvious by now) so if someone want defend it, I'll happily do the dance (and man, arguing against objectivism is easy mode) but I'm not sure I feel motivated enough to make a coherent and thorough assault on that philosophy.
Click to expand...

Man, I've had this avatar for fuckin' years. Changing it now just feels wrong.

And thanks for the post. I'm not about to go looking through Rand's philosophical methodology.
 
K

KingGondo

Banned
eznark said:
You don't think a 22 minute attack ad will resonate with the people?
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think that such an ad will resonate beyond the NObama core that already hates him.

Killing OBL was a massive victory for Obama, and people don't care much about any other detail except the fact that 1) He's dead, and 2) Obama did what Bush couldn't.

It shows bold decision-making, foreign policy acumen, and toughness on terrorism; and they're gonna use this to somehow portray Obama as a risk to national security? That's a good one.
 
G

gcubed

Member
Jooney said:
The GOP is pissy because there was an Obama ad at the first anniversary of OBL's death that suggested that Romney would not have made the call to go after OBL (based on a statement he had previously).
Click to expand...

Obama - "I would go in to Pakistan to kill OBL"
McCain - "lol rookie, you're an idiot if you would do that to our allies! Look at Obama everyone, he is an idiot and has no foreign policy experience!"

... next day all the GOP talking heads - "How could you elect someone that would basically attack our allies! Obama can't be entrusted to head our military!"


Obama orders the strike to kill OBL in Pakistan...

GOP response - "why you taking credit, anyone would have done that, you ain't so special!"
 
E

eznark

Banned
KingGondo said:
I honestly don't think that such an ad will resonate beyond the NObama core that already hates him.

Killing OBL was a massive victory for Obama, and people don't care much about any other detail except the fact that 1) He's dead, and 2) Obama did what Bush couldn't.

It shows bold decision-making, foreigb policy acumen, and toughness on terrorism; and they're gonna use this to somehow portray Obama as a risk to national security? That's a good one.
Click to expand...

Nah, you're wrong. Ross Perot proved that long winded infomercials are the way into Americas heart.
 
M

Miletius

Member
Farmboy said:
Nate revealed his (preliminary) senate forcast.



Ouch. I know King is basically a Democrat at heart so if Biden is VP they still sort-of have a majority, but still: that's a bit closer than I was hoping.
Click to expand...

That's better than what people were saying a few months ago, and is really what everybody has been saying over the last couple of days.

Re: Atlus Shrugged -- just read the book and skip the speech in the middle. That's what I did, and it doesn't lose anything without it.

As a work of fiction I think the novel suffers because of the format. It feels more episodic rather than a full body of work, and the "climaxes" are never really that exciting.

I read the book about 2 years ago, got a lot of weird looks as I carried it around the office.
 
P

Paches

Member
Dax01 said:
Shouldn't the line from one to zero be perpendicular to the x-axis? The chart reads like Osama Bin Laden was gradually less then one (all the way to zero) over a period of time.
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There was 1 in 2010, and 0 in 2011. Makes sense to me, you can't have the line going straight down in one year.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Paches-EJ- said:
There was 1 in 2010, and 0 in 2011. Makes sense to me, you can't have the line going straight down in one year.
Click to expand...

Um....there was one, then zero in 2010. There wasn't one Bin Laden in May of 2010 then .4 Bin Ladens at the beginning of 2011. You can have a straight line going down because there was one then zero; there's no in-between.
 
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