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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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Olympia Snowe voted against cloture. Harry Reid adding tacking it on to a defense bill does not count.(Read Master of the Senate for some real filibustering.) Pres. Obama had majorities in both houses his first two years, promised to do it in his campaign, and did not try.

The issue is vastly more complicated than Republican racism. Am I the only person here who reads the Wall St. journal editorial page?
You're not making any sense here. It came up for a vote three times in the Senate, and every single time it was filibustered. Once again: the Dream Act started as Republican legislation and was killed by Republican opposition. You may have a point that he "didn't try," but how could he succeed? He did have majorities for two years, but he didn't have a filibuster-proof majority for two years. It's amazing that people think two years with a majority should've allowed for everything to happen.

The GOP did not vote for a bill that was aimed at a very small set of illegal immigrants. What makes you think they would go for a bill that targets all of them? If you think that could happen, then there's no point in continuing this discussion.
 
Olympia Snowe voted against cloture. Harry Reid adding tacking it on to a defense bill does not count.(Read Master of the Senate for some real filibustering.) Pres. Obama had majorities in both houses his first two years, promised to do it in his campaign, and did not try.

The issue is vastly more complicated than Republican racism. Am I the only person here who reads the Wall St. journal editorial page?

You make it sound all so easy. I'm sure the Republicans would have facilitated in any type of reform. I wonder why Obama increased deportations and enforcement of security at the boarder? Maybe he was trying to win over some support from the right? And yet no one came out for the DREAM Act. Well, we know how much everyone likes party line votes that don't effect the budget and therefore can be filibustered.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
You say that like it's some great accomplishment. WSJ is nothing more than a right-wing rag. Where have all the principled conservative opinion-writers gone?

That right wing rag was 100% behind Pres. Bush's efforts at immigration reform and is consistently pro open borders.
 

Cloudy

Banned
That right wing rag was 100% behind Pres. Bush's efforts at immigration reform and is consistently pro open borders.

That's the point. They go with pretty much anything proposed by the GOP and attack the other side regardless of what they do. If Obama had tried anything more than the Dream Act, they would have denounced it. Hell, Obama has deported a LOT more people than Bush yet he's "weak on border security".

They are railing against this health care plan yet they'd be applauding if a Republican President did it (It's all GOP ideas after all!). WSJ = Right. Wing. Rag.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
You're not making any sense here. It came up for a vote three times in the Senate, and every single time it was filibustered. Once again: the Dream Act started as Republican legislation and was killed by Republican opposition. You may have a point that he "didn't try," but how could he succeed? He did have majorities for two years, but he didn't have a filibuster-proof majority for two years. It's amazing that people think two years with a majority should've allowed for everything to happen.

The GOP did not vote for a bill that was aimed at a very small set of illegal immigrants. What makes you think they would go for a bill that targets all of them? If you think that could happen, then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the bill itself has been brought up and debated on its merits while Pres. Obama has been in office. It's been used as a pawn in Senate procedural maneuvers. Pres. Obama never got involved beyond rhetoric.

Certainly a president has to pick and choose how to spend political capital. But if the only thing preventing this bill is Republican racism (and only a subset of Republicans not including the Chamber of Commerce types) it would not cost Pres. Obama any real political capital to try to pass it would it?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the bill itself has been brought up and debated on its merits while Pres. Obama has been in office. It's been used as a pawn in Senate procedural maneuvers. Pres. Obama never got involved beyond rhetoric.

Certainly a president has to pick and choose how to spend political capital. But if the only thing preventing this bill is Republican racism (and only a subset of Republicans not including the Chamber of Commerce types) it would not cost Pres. Obama any real political capital to try to pass it would it?
It was brought up by itself in the lame-duck session and was filibustered, and the President did get involved. He met with Congressional leaders about it plenty of times, even during its last push. This is also twice now you've mentioned "Republican racism" (I don't even know what the hell you mean by that) even though I make no allusion to any of the kind.

There was no hope for comprehensive immigration reform in the 111th, not even small portions like the Dream Act. That's what happens when the opposition party's number one political goal the is the defeat of the president.
 

Jackson50

Member
Pres. Obama did not even attempt comprehensive immigration reform, unlike Pres. Bush. Interest balancing.
President Obama is immaterial to the difficulty in balancing interests on immigration in the Republican Party. If President Bush's position were representative of the conservative base, he would have passed immigration reform. But it foundered because of conservative opposition. He attempted to strike a balance between moderation and enforcement, but the conservative faction revolted. His initiative failed precisely because of the difficulty of balancing moderation with the current conservative constituency. It split the Republican Party. And as conservatives have grown even grown more extreme, Republican business interests, which you have referenced, have become marginalized on the issue.
 

Clevinger

Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the bill itself has been brought up and debated on its merits while Pres. Obama has been in office. It's been used as a pawn in Senate procedural maneuvers. Pres. Obama never got involved beyond rhetoric.

Certainly a president has to pick and choose how to spend political capital. But if the only thing preventing this bill is Republican racism (and only a subset of Republicans not including the Chamber of Commerce types) it would not cost Pres. Obama any real political capital to try to pass it would it?

Ezra Klein has a nice little article on the history of the DREAM Act.

In 2001, Sen. Orrin Hatch introduced the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act -- better known as the DREAM Act -- into the Senate. The legislation would’ve made it possible for the children of undocumented immigrants to gain permanent residency if they stayed out of trouble and went to school or joined the military. The idea was that we shouldn’t make kids pay for the migration decisions of their parents, and we shouldn’t deny our economy skilled workers we’ve already paid to educate or our military eager recruits who want to defend the country they’ve grown up in.

Hatch’s legislation quickly proved popular with his Republican colleagues. His initial cosponsors included Sens. Sam Brownback, Larry Craig, Mike DeWine, Chuck Grassley, and Richard Lugar. When Hatch reintroduced the bill in 2003, Sens. Lincoln Chaffee, Susan Collins, Norm Coleman, Mike Crapo, Peter Fitzgerald, Chuck Hagel, John McCain and Ben Nighthorse Campbell joined the list of co-sponsors. The legislation cleared the Senate Judiciary Committee with ease: The final tally was 16-3, with seven of the 10 Republicans voting in favor.

More than a decade later, the DREAM Act still hasn’t been signed into law. Some of that is simply because of the vagaries of the Senate and the political calendar. After the legislation passed the Judiciary Committee, it was delayed for various procedural reasons, and then it got crowded out by President George W. Bush’s effort to pass comprehensive immigration reform.

But some of it is because the Republican Party has executed an almost total flip-flop on the idea. In December 2010, during the post-election lame-duck session, a tighter, a more stringent DREAM Act passed the House and came to the floor in the Senate. Fifty-two Democrats, and three Republicans, voted for it. (Two of those Republicans -- Sens. Bob Bennett and Lisa Murkowski -- had lost to tea party primary challengers earlier in 2010. The third, Sen. Richard Lugar, lost to a tea party challenge this year.) The 55 “ayes,” however, weren’t sufficient to overcome a Republican-led filibuster of the bill.

In the past week or so, another version of this story has played out at almost comically high speed. Sen. Marco Rubio proposed a weakened successor to the DREAM Act that would help young undocumented immigrants who go to school or enter the military remain in the country, albeit without a path to citizenship or permanent residence. Days later, President Obama proposed implementing something similar to Rubio’s bill that would effectively halt deportations for the group of immigrants.*

The Republican reaction? Rubio and Mitt Romney have both criticized Obama for acting unilaterally on the issue, and “a Rubio aide confirmed to HuffPost that the senator may not introduce his bill because he believes the politics are now more difficult.”

The aide is almost certainly right: The internal politics of the Republican Party make it very difficult for Republican legislators to vote for anything that Obama publicly supports. But that raises the question: What, exactly, are Democrats supposed to do to compromise with Republicans?

As Democrats learned during the DREAM Act’s first decade in existence, proposing policies that Republicans have previously proposed doesn’t work. Since 2009, Democrats have sought to find middle ground with a health-care plan based around an individual mandate (which Republican Sen. John Chafee first introduced into the Senate in the 1990s), a cap-and-trade plan to reduce carbon emissions (which Republican Senator John McCain introduced into the Senate in 2003), and tax-cut based stimulus plans (which President George W. Bush signed in 2008). No go.

Backing policies that Republicans currently support hasn’t proven much more effective. When Obama put his weight behind legislation to create a bipartisan deficit-reduction commission, a number of the Republicans who supported that bill, including Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell, flipped to oppose it.

Obama then created the Simpson-Bowles commission through an executive order. After it finished, Republicans lashed Obama for being cool in his initial reaction to the Simpson-Bowles deficit-reduction plan (which Republicans also didn’t support). So, when the Senate’s bipartisan Gang of Six proposed their version of the Simpson-Bowles plan, Obama gave an enthusiastic press conference calling the plan “good news” and signaling that he would sign it. A “Senate Republican leadership aide” promptly e-mailed Politico’s Mike Allen to say, “Background guidance: The president killed any chance of its success by 1) Embracing it. 2) Hailing the fact that it increases taxes. 3) Saying it mirrors his own plan.”

As for simply acting on his own, that’s what the president tried to do with Rubio’s DREAM-lite, and Republicans quickly attacked him for making bipartisan cooperation on the issue harder, and now Rubio might not release his legislation at all.

To recap: When Democrats endorse ideas Republican pioneered, that doesn’t lead to bipartisanship. When they endorse ideas Republicans currently support, that doesn’t lead to bipartisanship. And when they act on their own, that’s too partisan.

So what, exactly, are they supposed to do?

I don't think it has anything to do with racism. It's this mindset: "A Democrat is for it? HULK SMASH!"
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
My point is that The Wall St. Journal op-ed page is pro open borders because neoliberal big business likes the downward effect mass immigration exerts on lower middle class wages. Unions and their members do not. Pres. Obama needs to hold on to at least some working class whites in states like Ohio. There is an element of political calculation in Pres. Obama's handling of the issue beyond just throwing his hands up at Republican intransigence.
 
There's no way Obama will get anything done on immigration even if he gets re-elected. The republican party has moved so far right no progress is possible until we see another 2008 type blow out. And even then I'm sure there will be plenty of blue dog republicans to scuttle things
 
My point is that The Wall St. Journal op-ed page is pro open borders because neoliberal big business likes the downward effect mass immigration exerts on lower middle class wages. Unions and their members do not. Pres. Obama needs to hold on to at least some working class whites in states like Ohio. There is an element of political calculation in Pres. Obama's handling of the issue beyond just throwing his hands up at Republican intransigence.
Moving your goal posts. Your original post on the matter had nothing to do with the WSJ.

You're saying it was a political calculation that he didn't do comprehensive immigration. We're saying while that may be true, it doesn't matter. It wouldn't have gotten through anyway, and Obama was right to pursue a more compromised piece of legislation, and even that failed.
 

Clevinger

Member
My point is that The Wall St. Journal op-ed page is pro open borders because neoliberal big business likes the downward effect mass immigration exerts on lower middle class wages. Unions and their members do not. Pres. Obama needs to hold on to at least some working class whites in states like Ohio. There is an element of political calculation in Pres. Obama's handling of the issue beyond just throwing his hands up at Republican intransigence.

That's weird, because he pushed for it (in speech only, yeah, but that's mainly what a president does with legislation) and then went ahead and did it himself via the executive. I'm sure there's political calculation, there is in pretty much everything a politician does, but I see no reason why he'd do that (where literally all the attention of working class whites is on him and not Congress) but be hesitant on the legislation Republicans are obstructing.
 

Chumly

Member
My point is that The Wall St. Journal op-ed page is pro open borders because neoliberal big business likes the downward effect mass immigration exerts on lower middle class wages. Unions and their members do not. Pres. Obama needs to hold on to at least some working class whites in states like Ohio. There is an element of political calculation in Pres. Obama's handling of the issue beyond just throwing his hands up at Republican intransigence.

So your saying that Obama supported the dream act... to get republicans to filibuster it... so it would not pass... so it would help whites in Ohio... who in turn would vote for Obama? Could you create a flow chart for us so we can better understand this master calculation?
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
So your saying that Obama supported the dream act... to get republicans to filibuster it... so it would not pass... so it would help whites in Ohio... who in turn would vote for Obama? Could you create a flow chart for us so we can better understand this master calculation?

Here, this may
not
help.

TcfMD.png


(trying out xmind, kinda cool)
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Moving your goal posts. Your original post on the matter had nothing to do with the WSJ.

You're saying it was a political calculation that he didn't do comprehensive immigration. We're saying while that may be true, it doesn't matter. It wouldn't have gotten through anyway, and Obama was right to pursue a more compromised piece of legislation, and even that failed.

I mentioned the WSJ as shorthand for Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Y'all consider Gov. Romney's policy farcical because he will have to flip flop or pander to a nativist claque. Pres. Obama flip flopped (promised to pursue comprehensive reform in his first year in office, had majorities in both houses, did not even try) and is beholden to union interests and the need not to antagonize working class whites whose stagnating wages his party blames on open borders Wall St. plutocrats. So we get Pres. Clinton/Dick Morris style triangulation policy (timed just after unions were emasculated in Wisconsin) and yall blame a lame duck filibuster joined by the likes of Olympia Snowe. I won't argue the point further, but there's enough farce to go around on this issue.
 
I mentioned the WSJ as shorthand for Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Y'all consider Gov. Romney's policy farcical because he will have to flip flop or pander to a nativist claque. Pres. Obama flip flopped (promised to pursue comprehensive reform in his first year in office, had majorities in both houses, did not even try) and is beholden to union interests and the need not to antagonize working class whites whose stagnating wages his party blames on open borders Wall St. plutocrats. So we get Pres. Clinton/Dick Morris style triangulation policy (timed just after unions were emasculated in Wisconsin) and yall blame a lame duck filibuster joined by the likes of Olympia Snowe. I won't argue the point further, but there's enough farce to go around on this issue.
Not in your original post you didn't. I have so many questions here – like what the significance of Olympia Snowe is, what the unions in Wisconsin have to do with anything, what Wall Street has do with anything, how Romney enters into this, why he's ignoring the impossibility of any such legislation passing – but by this point I've given up. You're talking about nothing and everything at the same time.
Here, this may
not
help.

TcfMD.png


(trying out xmind, kinda cool)

Three%20dimensional%20chess.jpg
 
I mentioned the WSJ as shorthand for Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Y'all consider Gov. Romney's policy farcical because he will have to flip flop or pander to a nativist claque. Pres. Obama flip flopped (promised to pursue comprehensive reform in his first year in office, had majorities in both houses, did not even try) and is beholden to union interests and the need not to antagonize working class whites whose stagnating wages his party blames on open borders Wall St. plutocrats. So we get Pres. Clinton/Dick Morris style triangulation policy (timed just after unions were emasculated in Wisconsin) and yall blame a lame duck filibuster joined by the likes of Olympia Snowe. I won't argue the point further, but there's enough farce to go around on this issue.
I tried following your posts and they were all building up to this epic 'obummer is a union lapdog' climax. I'm happy you finally got this off your chest hopefully you'll sleep better now.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Different industries and different markets have entirely different situations. Some will be resilient to increased taxation and others not. Tax increases or decreases are not inherently good or bad. As with every business decision you need to evaluate the circumstances surrounding the industry under discussion. Elasticity will be a consideration - this can affect the impact of taxation. For example fuel and cigarette taxation is often a safe bet because price increases (induced by increased taxation) have little effect on consumer demand.

Moreover, this particular market is for the super-wealthy. These people can probably go to most places in the world to get their yachts. So the extra price caused by the taxation made this market unappealing and they had the resources to go elsewhere.

That wasn't specific to this case - I couldn't find anything with a quick search that was.



That seems to be exactly what happened.

If you own a yacht, you're not really planning on being grounded anywhere, so it doesn't matter.

Estate taxes, on the other hand..... People generally don't want to have to travel across the ocean for work. Even rich people. If their companies are in america, chances are they'll stay close just out of convenience.

A luxury tax on private jets would probably have the same effect as the yacht tax, because location doesn't matter for that kind of product.

It's a case by case situation. Same with any spending program.



http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/government_programs/jan-june96/budget_01-01.html <-- this is the best I could find.


Anyways, you have a yacht. You're going to be going all over the place with it, in international waters, at resorts, etc. Borders don't really matter in yachthood, since you're mobile

Grazie. That seems to make sense. So I suppose I'll still remain a filthy pro-Hitler librul.


for now...
 

ToxicAdam

Member
The return of Guileless to Poligaf is the best thing to happen since CharlieDigital and cntrational left.

<insert Th3Bore's bowing smiley here>
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Fair enough. Also enough to say that he's actually kept this one, as it will reduce them by that much in 2014.

Good lord delayed implementation was stupid.

I will take a one year ban bet for 2014 if my or any TYPICAL person's healthcare costs go down by any substantial amount, much less 2500 freaking dollars! Give me a break. If you buy that figure or anything even close to it, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
 

Chumly

Member
Here, this may
not
help.



(trying out xmind, kinda cool)
Perfect!
I mentioned the WSJ as shorthand for Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Y'all consider Gov. Romney's policy farcical because he will have to flip flop or pander to a nativist claque. Pres. Obama flip flopped (promised to pursue comprehensive reform in his first year in office, had majorities in both houses, did not even try) and is beholden to union interests and the need not to antagonize working class whites whose stagnating wages his party blames on open borders Wall St. plutocrats. So we get Pres. Clinton/Dick Morris style triangulation policy (timed just after unions were emasculated in Wisconsin) and yall blame a lame duck filibuster joined by the likes of Olympia Snowe. I won't argue the point further, but there's enough farce to go around on this issue.

You act like nothing was done in the 111th congress........ The votes were not there for immigration reform and you can blame republicans for that. Acting like Obama made some master move to court Hispanics and white unions at the same time requires giant logic leaps.
 

Chichikov

Member
I will take a one year ban bet for 2014 if my or any TYPICAL person's healthcare costs go down by any substantial amount, much less 2500 freaking dollars! Give me a break. If you buy that figure or anything even close to it, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
Yeah, there's not a whole lot in Obamacare in the way of cost control.
There are some things, but I think it's generous to assume it will even stop growth.

But you know, market solutions!

Edit: still, getting a near universal coverage is quite a big deal; I wouldn't have done it like that, but I get to be picky, I got health insurance.
 
Democrats have a solid uptick when it comes to voter enthusiasm. Forty-six percent of Democrats described themselves as &#8220;extremely&#8221; or &#8220;very&#8221; enthusiastic about the election in a CNN poll from late March. That number climbed to 59 percent in the current poll. Enthusiasm among Republicans dipped slightly, from 51 percent to 52 percent in March.
Too bad when all Democrats are enthusiastic, none of them turn out because they count on each other's enthusiasm to hand Obama a win. King Romney, baby!
 
I mentioned the WSJ as shorthand for Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Y'all consider Gov. Romney's policy farcical because he will have to flip flop or pander to a nativist claque. Pres. Obama flip flopped (promised to pursue comprehensive reform in his first year in office, had majorities in both houses, did not even try) and is beholden to union interests and the need not to antagonize working class whites whose stagnating wages his party blames on open borders Wall St. plutocrats. So we get Pres. Clinton/Dick Morris style triangulation policy (timed just after unions were emasculated in Wisconsin) and yall blame a lame duck filibuster joined by the likes of Olympia Snowe. I won't argue the point further, but there's enough farce to go around on this issue.

What are you talking about? Obama and the Democrats bow too much to union demands? If that was true, then they would have pass the card check legislation in the first 100 days. It never came up. You also seem to be forgetting the 3 trade pacts the majority passed with South Korea, Columbia, and another country. Also when it comes to immigration, you just need to ask yourself one question: Would Obama veto a bill if it came to his desk? I don't think so.

Edit: I'm also tired of this super majority silver bullet comparison. Obama could only do as much as Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman would let him.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
It's not Obama's fault that Pelosi and Reid came into power and completely shut out Republicans from having a say on most legislation. They were going to exert paybacks for all the years they had to eat shit while Republicans were in power and nothing was going to stop them.
 

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
It's not Obama's fault that Pelosi and Reid came into power and completely shut out Republicans from having a say on most legislation. They were going to exert paybacks for all the years they had to eat shit while Republicans were in power and nothing was going to stop them.
I'll give it a 6/10.
 

Diablos

Member

Averon

Member
Politics are cable news' bread and butter. The pres election (and the primaries leading up to it) is like the Super Bowl to these channels. Like the Super Bowl, they want to keep the "score" as close as possible, or at least give the appearance it is. They lwill lose too much money if the election is a blowout.

In short, no, we will not get respectable cable news anytime soon.
 

Diablos

Member
*chuckle*
BELIEVE.

---

John Boehner is such a tool.

http://readingisforsnobs.blogspot.com/2012/07/john-boehner-obamacares-700-free-rider.html

Can you answer questions like a human being and not a robot, please? What a buffoon. We're never going to have a sane discussion about anything in Washington if this is the best the GOP can do.

He totally ignores the heart of the matter and just goes "RAH RAH REPEAL OBAMACARE."

The look on his face is not only one of pure determination but evil.

He's looking at her as if he wants to say "stop giving me facts, you're complicating the matter for the dumb Americans I'm trying to keep on my side." He also looks kind of threatening, like "how dare you ask me a real question?"
 
It's not Obama's fault that Pelosi and Reid came into power and completely shut out Republicans from having a say on most legislation. They were going to exert paybacks for all the years they had to eat shit while Republicans were in power and nothing was going to stop them.

Obama could have done more to reach out to them, but ultimately they had little interest in working with him anyway. He certainly reached out a few times but slowly stopped

Some argue republicans will snap back to their senses if Obama wins again. Nah...they'll turn attention to 2014 by blocking anything and everything they can.
 
What are you talking about? Obama and the Democrats bow too much to union demands? If that was true, then they would have pass the card check legislation in the first 100 days. It never came up. You also seem to be forgetting the 3 trade pacts the majority passed with South Korea, Columbia, and another country. Also when it comes to immigration, you just need to ask yourself one question: Would Obama veto a bill if it came to his desk? I don't think so.

Edit: I'm also tired of this super majority silver bullet comparison. Obama could only do as much as Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman would let him.
I agree more or less, but at the same time, Obama and, in particular, Harry Reid, needed to grab those two assholes (among others) by the balls and threaten them with something like a loss of chairmanships, etc. that's the big problem. Just letting them all run around doing whatever they want in the Senate. It could have been dealt with better.


What the fuck?

CNN is a worthless news organization. I never thought they'd get this bad.
Well, okay, maybe I did.

It's like that data is intentionally trying to distort the reality of the situation by throwing in states that aren't even toss ups into the mix. What a crock of shit.

Will we ever have respectable cable news again? A new network, perhaps?
Current TV?
 
This current fiasco over whether or not the mandate is a penalty or a tax is really funny to watch.

As Brian Beutler said on Twitter: "The GOP has just invented Schroedinger's tax. Impressive."
 
What the fuck?

CNN is a worthless news organization. I never thought they'd get this bad.
Well, okay, maybe I did.

It's like that data is intentionally trying to distort the reality of the situation by throwing in states that aren't even toss ups into the mix. What a crock of shit.

Will we ever have respectable cable news again? A new network, perhaps?
It'd be one thing if they actually commissioned a poll specifically for those 15 states.

Conducting a national poll and then inferring "swing state poll" from a small sample of 39 voters per state is shitty and just a headline-grabber.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
More post-mortem on the Roberts decision:

Conservatives baffled by the decision by Chief Justice John Roberts to side with liberals on President Obama&#8217;s health care plan should have read a 2005 research paper by political science professor Kenneth Manning.

Manning&#8217;s research found Roberts very conservative in criminal and civil liberties cases but more liberal than the appellate court average in economic cases.

Manning talked about his research with the Washington Post in 2005: &#8220;The general read I got was of a non-activist stance &#8212; a general reluctance to go out of his way and rule against government regulators. If the EPA ruled against the chemical industry, the general tendency was to defer to the agency.&#8221;
 

gcubed

Member
It'd be one thing if they actually commissioned a poll specifically for those 15 states.

Conducting a national poll and then inferring "swing state poll" from a small sample of 39 voters per state is shitty and just a headline-grabber.

and then included several states that aren't really battleground states to adjust the results
 
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