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PoliGAF 2012 |OT3| If it's not a legitimate OT the mods have ways to shut it down

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W

Wolfgunblood Garopa

Member
Loudninja said:
Romney: Obama During Debates Will ‘Say Things That Aren’t True’


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ebates-obama-will-say-things-that-arent-true/

lol
Click to expand...

lol!

"I'm just warning you in advance, I'm going to get my ass handed to me but that's only because it's not going to be a fair fight- my opponent is a cheater."

Dr. Pangloss said:
I'm going to have to agree with Romney here. The Fed would not be doing QE3 if Obama's fiscal policy had work. He underestimated the size of the recession and did not get enough stimulus to combat it. But Romney is also ignoring that everyone underestimated the size, and the congressional opposition that Obama faced in passing more of his fiscal plan. But he is correct in stating that Ben would not be doing QE3 if everything was going well.
Click to expand...

Which reality are you referring to, the one where the Fed has to play a role in economic recovery through monetary policy because the obstructionist party will not allow economic recovery because they want to make Obama a one term President, or the one where Republicans put aside their politics and allow economic recovery through fiscal policy?
 
C

cartoon_soldier

Member
Dr. Pangloss said:
I'm going to have to agree with Romney here. The Fed would not be doing QE3 if Obama's fiscal policy had work. He underestimated the size of the recession and did not get enough stimulus to combat it. But Romney is also ignoring that everyone underestimated the size, and the congressional opposition that Obama faced in passing more of his fiscal plan. But he is correct in stating that Ben would not be doing QE3 if everything was going well.
Click to expand...

The stimulus was drafted when Q4 GDP fall in 2008 was estimated at 3% instead of the 8.8% it turned out to be with revised figures. That did in Obama's Stimulus size.

Also, the stuff Feds started in QE3 is what they should have been doing all along.
 
C

codhand

Member
T

ToxicAdam

Member
codhand said:
If you're financially worse off than four years ago, fire your accountant.

Probably a lot of retirees invested in bonds, because stocks are a drop in the bucket by comparison.
Click to expand...


It isn't like everyone experienced job loss/stock loss/underwater mortgage in the fall of 2008. For many, their pain didn't occur until the middle-late part of 2009. For some, it has been a slow unraveling over a number of years.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
ToxicAdam said:
It isn't like everyone experienced job loss/stock loss/underwater mortgage in the fall of 2008. For many, their pain didn't occur until the middle-late part of 2009. For some, it has been a slow unraveling over a number of years.
Click to expand...

Which is what makes it such a dishonest question for the Republicans to bring up, and a difficult question for Obama to answer. Are you better off than you were 4 years ago? Yeah, probably not. Are we better off than we were exactly 4 years ago? You bet your fucking ass we are.
 
Mengy

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Loudninja said:
Romney: Obama During Debates Will ‘Say Things That Aren’t True’


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ebates-obama-will-say-things-that-arent-true/

lol
Click to expand...


Romney said:
“I said that there are five different studies that point out that we can get to a balanced budget without raising taxes on middle income people. Let me tell you, George, the fundamentals of my tax policy are these. Number one, reduce tax burdens on middle-income people. So no one can say my plan is going to raise taxes on middle-income people, because principle number one is keep the burden down on middle-income taxpayers,” he said.

Romney defined middle income as $200,000 to $250,000 a year.
Click to expand...

So when he says middle income, is he talking about middle class? Because that income range is certainly not middle class.

The more Romney says, the more he confuses me. I don't honestly know what exactly he plans to do if he gets into office...
 
D

Dr. Pangloss

Member
codhand said:
not like obama had a jobs bill or anything.
Click to expand...

Wolfgunblood Garopa said:
Which reality are you referring to, the one where the Fed has to play a role in economic recovery through monetary policy because the obstructionist party will not allow economic recovery because they want to make Obama a one term President, or the one where Republicans put aside their politics and allow economic recovery through fiscal policy?
Click to expand...

cartoon_soldier said:
The stimulus was drafted when Q4 GDP fall in 2008 was estimated at 3% instead of the 8.8% it turned out to be with revised figures. That did in Obama's Stimulus size.

Also, the stuff Feds started in QE3 is what they should have been doing all along.
Click to expand...

Obvious you guys did not read my full paragraph. I gave blame to Republicans for holding up Obama's fiscal plan. I also stated that everyone underestimated the recession. But Romney is correct that Ben is the only actor in our system that is willing to do something now. And his acting with QE3 is an admission that the economy is weak.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
codhand said:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...you-better-off-than-four-years-ago/?hpt=po_c1

If you're financially worse off than four years ago, fire your accountant.

Probably a lot of retirees invested in bonds, because stocks are a drop in the bucket by comparison.
Click to expand...

Key takeaway here is that 67% of voters think things will be great next year.

Dr. Pangloss said:
Obvious you guys did not read my full paragraph. I gave blame to Republicans for holding up Obama's fiscal plan. I also stated that everyone underestimated the recession. But Romney is correct that Ben is the only actor in our system that is willing to do something now. And his acting with QE3 is an admission that the economy is weak.
Click to expand...

It's true, but lacks context. Romney's argument built around the statement is specious.
 
C

codhand

Member
I agree with this.
ToxicAdam said:
It isn't like everyone experienced job loss/stock loss/underwater mortgage in the fall of 2008. For many, their pain didn't occur until the middle-late part of 2009. For some, it has been a slow unraveling over a number of years.
Click to expand...


"A 30 percent increase is a roar. By any metric."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39367780&postcount=2400

I realize that's just stocks.

I think if you lost your job around the time Obama was elected and still don't have work then yes you would be worse off, not because of investments which have doubled since he took office.

Basileus777 said:
Accountant? Do you really believe people are worse off because of investments they've made?
Click to expand...

No. I shouldn't have said it, but a better stock market does improve 401ks, hiring, confidence etc, as Ben B noted yesterday. If you are unemployed the mention of an accountant, is insulting.

I don't have an accountant
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Mengy said:
So when he says middle income, is he talking about middle class? Because that income range is certainly not middle class.

The more Romney says, the more he confuses me. I don't honestly know what exactly he plans to do if he gets into office...
Click to expand...

Romney has no idea there's any qualitative difference between 30k and $250k.

codhand said:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...you-better-off-than-four-years-ago/?hpt=po_c1

If you're financially worse off than four years ago, fire your accountant.

Probably a lot of retirees invested in bonds, because stocks are a drop in the bucket by comparison.
Click to expand...

Are you Mitt Romney? How many people in America do you think have an accountant? How many people do you think even have real investments? I can't tell if you're kidding.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
“I said that there are five different studies that point out that we can get to a balanced budget without raising taxes on middle income people. Let me tell you, George, the fundamentals of my tax policy are these. Number one, reduce tax burdens on middle-income people. So no one can say my plan is going to raise taxes on middle-income people, because principle number one is keep the burden down on middle-income taxpayers,” he said.

Romney defined middle income as $200,000 to $250,000 a year.
Click to expand...
Lolwut? If you're making 200k you're almost definitely in the top 10% of the country in terms of net worth.
 
R

richiek

steals Justin Bieber DVDs
Romney defined middle income as $200,000 to $250,000 a year.
Click to expand...

FrankGrimes.gif


Holy fuck, how out of touch is this guy?
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Mengy said:
So when he says middle income, is he talking about middle class? Because that income range is certainly not middle class.

The more Romney says, the more he confuses me. I don't honestly know what exactly he plans to do if he gets into office...
Click to expand...

Wow... just wow. Him using the term middle-income to get around the truth that his plan raises taxes on the middle class is just terrible. It's such an obvious deception, but I think some people will fall for it hook, line, and sinker...
 
W

Wolfgunblood Garopa

Member
Dr. Pangloss said:
Obvious you guys did not read my full paragraph. I gave blame to Republicans for holding up Obama's fiscal plan. I also stated that everyone underestimated the recession. But Romney is correct that Ben is the only actor in our system that is willing to do something now. And his acting with QE3 is an admission that the economy is weak.
Click to expand...

Is he the only one willing, or the only one that can?

edit: beaten
 
M

markatisu

Member
Holy shit 250-250k is middle, then at $60k me and my wife as well as 95% of Iowa is poverty stricken LOL

Amazing considering we own our own house (no mortgage), own 3 cars, and are never behind on our bills. America truly is the land of dreams when people in poverty have all that ha ha ha
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The Technomancer said:
You think so? Charts released last year or so put $120k at about 15% (IIRC)
I don't know quite how dramatic the slope is off the top of my head though
Click to expand...

I am quite certain of it. Although I am having a devil of a time finding the charts because the Romney blunder has swept up all those search strings. Seriously. I am in the top five percent and not earning as much as Romney claims is middle income. In fact, the 'average' household income is almost seven times higher than the true median, which is about 70k. Which is a terrifying indictment of the imbalance.


Kosmo said:
Obama will say things that are not true. Romney probably will as well.
Click to expand...

You are my favorite. Best thing about the amazing insight above is that you typed it out of your brain instead of pasting it from Drudge. Qualitative easing.
 
D

Dr. Pangloss

Member
pigeon said:
Key takeaway here is that 67% of voters think things will be great next year.



It's true, but lacks context. Romney's argument built around the statement is specious.
Click to expand...

True. True. Romney wants to 100% blame Obama for our current situation. I don't think that is accurate. Personally, I would blame Obama for 30% of our economic problems. He has had 4 years. That is a lot of time, even with opposition. His main failures to me are a result of appointments. Cartoon soldier says Ben should have been doing QE sooner. Guess who reappointed Ben? He also had spots open on the Federal Reserve Board for a long time and did not get a full one till like a year ago. Also, he never replaced that Bush guy who is the head of the GSE (Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae). Obama has had some key fiscal policy failures. Don't deny it.


Wolfgunblood Garopa said:
Is he the only one willing, or the only one that can?

edit: beaten
Click to expand...

Bad choice of words. You guys get what I meant though =).
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Stinkles said:
I am quite certain of it. Although I am having a devil of a time finding the charts because the Romney blunder has swept up all those search strings. Seriously. I am in the top five percent and not earning as much as Romney claims is middle income. In fact, the 'average' household income is almost seven times higher than the true median, which is about 70k. Which is a terrifying indictment of the imbalance.
Click to expand...

Really? Interesting. I wonder how much of that is the nonlinear nature of the curve and how much of it is asset valuation in different parts of the country. My family made it into the top 15% based on income and estimated house value on about half what Romney is talking about, but that's in a medium sized city in the midwest.
 
C

codhand

Member
Stinkles said:
Are you Mitt Romney? How many people in America do you think have an accountant? How many people do you think even have real investments? I can't tell if you're kidding.
Click to expand...

Jeez, no, just read my post that's above yours, I was picturing people unwilling to give Obama credit for what I see as a vast improvement in the overall economic picture. I was not picturing some poor guy with no job and no investments. :(

Also if 250k is middle income, then I need a new accountant :p

seriously, i don't have an accountant
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Dr. Pangloss said:
Cartoon soldier says Ben should have been doing QE sooner. Guess who reappointed Ben? He also had spots open on the Federal Reserve Board for a long time and did not get a full one till like a year ago. Also, he never replaced that Bush guy who is the head of the GSE (Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae). Obama has had some key fiscal policy failures. Don't deny it.
Click to expand...

At the beginning of Obama's term, he made a bunch of Bush reappointments to prove his bipartisan chops. Obviously in retrospect this looks like an error. Maybe it was, I dunno. Gates did pretty well. It's true that Bernanke probably hesitated more many economists would've, but at the same time, one must remember that the majority of Obama's appointments have been held up or not allowed at all by the Republicans in the Senate -- including, of course, those two spots on the Fed board you're talking about, which he first tried to fill in 2010. So I think there are still extenuating circumstances to take into account -- and it's not inaccurate to say that if the stimulus had been the size it needed to be, Bernanke's wait and see policy would've been more or less the correct one.
 
K

KingGondo

Banned
Washington Post said:
The Romney campaign does not dispute that Mitt Romney is a neoconservative, it just refuses to say the word neoconservative.

“His embrace of American values and interests and his call for American leadership abroad throughout this campaign is indicative of a philosophy of peace through strength,” Alex Wong, the campaign’s foreign policy director, said in an interview.

Does he embrace neoconservatism?

“You know,” said Wong, “throughout this campaign Governor Romney has indicated that his view on the world is peace through strength, American leadership, in guaranteeing an American century, that this new century continues to be an American century. And that’s the governing philosophy of Governor Romney on peace through strength.”

So does he consider himself a neoconservative?

“What I’m saying is,” said Wong, “Governor Romney’s embrace of American values and interests and his call for American leadership is a philosophy of peace through strength.”

So then does he dispute the classisfication of neoconservative?

“What I’m saying is,” said Wong, “Governor Romney’s embrace of American values and interests and his call for American leadership…”

So does he feel comfortable being called a neoconservative?

“What I am saying is,” said Wong, “that Governor Romney has used, has said, that his philosophy is peace through strength.”

Does he have a problem with the term neoconservative?

“Governor Romney has indicated that he has a philosophy,” said Wong, “peace through strength.”

So he does have a problem with the term neoconservative.

“Governor Romney,” said Wong, “has throughout this campaign talked about American values and interests and called for American leadership abroad.”

Does he embrace the concepts of neoconservatism, just not the title?

“I think I have given you a lot here,” said Wong. “I have described Governor Romney’s philosophy and the way he’s discussed it and how he makes his decisions.”

Got it. So he does not embrace the word neoconservatism.

“Governor Romney has discussed throughout this campaign a call for American leadership abroad, restoring American leadership, restoring the sinews of American strength, and that’s based on restoring our economic strength number, that’s one, restoring our military strength, that’s two, and restoring the strength of our values. These are the three pillars of American strength abroad. And it is a philosophy of peace through strength.”
Click to expand...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...002106-fdf0-11e1-8adc-499661afe377_story.html

My head hurts.
 
C

codhand

Member
pigeon said:
At the beginning of Obama's term, he made a bunch of Bush reappointments to prove his bipartisan chops. Obviously in retrospect this looks like an error. Maybe it was, I dunno. Gates did pretty well. It's true that Bernanke probably hesitated more many economists would've, but at the same time, one must remember that the majority of Obama's appointments have been held up or not allowed at all by the Republicans in the Senate -- including, of course, those two spots on the Fed board you're talking about, which he first tried to fill in 2010.
Click to expand...

Sadly, Bush reappointments now seem vastly preferable to the more recent tea-party appointments.
 
D

Dr. Pangloss

Member
pigeon said:
At the beginning of Obama's term, he made a bunch of Bush reappointments to prove his bipartisan chops. Obviously in retrospect this looks like an error. Maybe it was, I dunno. Gates did pretty well. It's true that Bernanke probably hesitated more many economists would've, but at the same time, one must remember that the majority of Obama's appointments have been held up or not allowed at all by the Republicans in the Senate -- including, of course, those two spots on the Fed board you're talking about, which he first tried to fill in 2010. So I think there are still extenuating circumstances to take into account -- and it's not inaccurate to say that if the stimulus had been the size it needed to be, Bernanke's wait and see policy would've been more or less the correct one.
Click to expand...

Look, I don't blame Obama 100%. But he doesn't deserve full absolution. PoliGAF, how much blame does he deserve for our current economy?
 
B

BSsBrolly

Banned
Anyone have the Rasmussen poll results from 2008? I'd love to see how they showed McCain back then. I do remeber they had radically different results than all the other polls but not exactly how much different.
 
C

codhand

Member
LDlFe.png
Click to expand...

Just wanted a nice copy/paste of this info from realclearpolitics

Hi-jack is wrong, Republicans were open to it, no arm twisting occurred, but it certainly seems to have backed Romney into a corner, and is at least partly responsible for him changing many of his previous platform stances.


Worse Than the Recession
The Obama administration has engineered a “recovery” in name only.
"So is economic health returning?
The short answer is no."

"The long answer is also no."
Click to expand...
http://reason.com/archives/2012/09/12/worse-than-the-recession

This is the kind of mentality I was picturing when I made my "accountant" gaffe =/

I'm GAFing from my office for pete's sake.
 
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