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[Drek]

The one big key today is for the Obama campaign to get surrogates on shows pointing out specific Romney lies and laying the groundwork.

Dude lied his way through a debate after saying Obama would and the media is unwilling to call him out on it because they're toothless and need a tight race for ratings. Obama's team needs to force that narrative.

 

[talisayNon]

Can someone explain t me why I shouldn't dump my life savings into Obama Stock on Intrade? Currently at 6.60. So if I win that means I get +$3.40 in profit?

 

[TacticalFox88]

I'll be glad when the election is over so I don't have to hear incessant bitching, doom and gloom, and over exaggeration from diablos and trolling from PD

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Can someone explain t me why I shouldn't dump my life savings into Obama Stock on Intrade? Currently at 6.60. So if I win that means I get +$3.40 in profit?

Well there's the risk that you lose... but that's just a general statement about any "why don't I dump my entire life savings into X" proposals even if there's a 95% that you'll win. I hope Romney surges from this debate. I'd like Intrade to go down a little more because I can't deposit money for a bit.

EDIT: You also have to subtract costs from your winnings. $5 a month; ~$5 processing fee for a check; X% if you use an existing member to help deposit funds into your account so you can can get your funds nearly instantly.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Would the grades given look different from people who does not refer to Obama as "Bams", do you think? I think so.

Uh what the hell is this supposed to mean? No, really?

The majority of people arn't looking for substance or would be confused/bored by it. He gets a B- for spouting bullshit and not getting called on it. By Obama not calling him on it, it legitimized all lies he was saying.

So he gets a relatively good grade for a rather uninspiring and non-informative performance? I just don't understand that logic, given that this is my first presidential debate in about 3 elections.

It doesn't matter what we think. It matters what the general public thinks. I think it's easy to see how the general public would say Romney won this debate. What he said was easy to understand, even if it lacked any substance. If someone isn't very happy with the current administration, they want to hear "yes I will fix this" even if there's no specific plan in place.

I never contested that romney didn't "win" the debate. My grades reflect that. Im just trying to understand what warrants Romney a good grade. I've studied debate since high-school and that was rather mediocre from both sides.

 

[IrishNinja]

sorry for the repost, but i gotta know: does anyone else have "libertarians" on your facebook page that are cheering romney for tonight's effort?

a social conservative who wants to expand government...yeah, congrats there guys, might want to just start owning that neocon shirt you're wearing

 

[Oblivion]

sorry for the repost, but i gotta know: does anyone else have "libertarians" on your facebook page that are cheering romney for tonight's effort?

a social conservative who wants to expand government...yeah, congrats there guys, might want to just start owning that neocon shirt you're wearing

I've said this a million times before, but I have yet to meet a libertarian that would vote for a democrat.

 

[Tim-E]

The reaction to this debate has been absolutely embarrassing. Liberals are the most whiny, reactionary bunch of babies on this planet over things that ultimately matter very little. No wonder democrats rarely win elections, their base are defeatist babies who would rather whine about how awful things are than try to ensure that another republican wins. No wonder liberal is seen as a dirty word by so many.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Some of you are making it sound like Obama and co were at their death throes and this was it for them. Romney had a good night, but some of you are quick to declare a statewide calamity after seeing a couple houses burn down.

This will be one of those chapters in Game Change 2 where you almost feel great for the Romney team's sympathetic character/s because they finally caught a break, knowing full well of the results later down the line. Almost.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

I never contested that romney didn't "win" the debate. My grades reflect that. Im just trying to understand what warrants Romney a good grade. I've studied debate since high-school and that was rather mediocre from both sides.

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. It doesn't matter what you personally think of his performance. It matters what the general population is going to think of his performance. They can have Bill Clinton and Sarah Palin say literally the exact same thing and the general population will give Clinton an A and Palin at most a B-/C+.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

How were the ratings? Maybe nobody watched. That'd be good.

I find election debate viewership figures to be interesting. The 2008 debates pulled in about 52 million viewers. Of a country with a population of about 310 million people, I wonder whether the ones watching the debates are the ones that need be appealed to.

 

[Oblivion]

Romney's Muddled Message On Medicare and Vouchers

 

[TiVo]

So if Mitt gets a bump in the skewed liberal main stream media polls, will this be acknowledged by the right or do they just pretend and ignore what they claimed about said polls?

 

[stressboy]

sorry for the repost, but i gotta know: does anyone else have "libertarians" on your facebook page that are cheering romney for tonight's effort?

a social conservative who wants to expand government...yeah, congrats there guys, might want to just start owning that neocon shirt you're wearing

Most Libertarians I have known have been big time GOP cheerleaders.

 

[worldrunover]

No one seems to be picking up on this, but when Obama talked about tax breaks for shipping jobs oversseas, and Mitt said something like "I never got that! I need new tax accountants!" he was OPENLY ADMITTING to shipping jobs over seas! And openly admitting he takes every conceivable tax loophole available! And Obama said nothing! That was a softball. Come on, man.

 

[gcubed]

I'm gonna pull an Obama and whiff on this opening, here.

You sir are a better man than I... I wouldn't have been able to resist.

Obama needed to not have a "you're likable enough" moment.

 

[IrishNinja]

I've said this a million times before, but I have yet to meet a libertarian that would vote for a democrat.

i feel like i get that: i weigh social liberties > economic values. libertarians believe the latter enables the former (gaborn makes good points here, for example). i don't agree with it, but i follow the logic...so a few libs ive known went for obama over mccain because they felt the latter would've expanded gov't/encroached on social liberties more than the former. i respected that as much i as i respect said individuals not being happy with obaman 4 years later....as long as they're not voting romney under the same principles.

Most Libertarians I have known have been big time GOP cheerleaders.

and given that their candidate this term isn't entirely horrid, i think that shows their true colors - gary johnson isn't the guy id check for, but if i held those values, he's a fair sight better than romney. thats my point though: what's the point of holding such values if you dont stick to them under fire? one libertarian friend of mine is busting my balls for not voting green this go around, and under that logic, he's got a point: while obama's advanced helathcare (big plus in my book), he's been shitty on the drug war, vs her polices.
ive argued that i live in a swing state (FL) and will likely return to this thread by later this month to propose a vote-trade with one of you.

 

[scorcho]

You do know we're splitting hairs here. This debate isn't going to settle the election, and while it may move polls a tick it's unlikely to affect the outcome much at all.

I was hoping that Obama could get under Romney's skin more, as he can be flustered into startlingly stupid moments when he's agitated (see: Rick Perry v. Romney in all the GOP primary debates). Just from glancing, though, Romney passed the President 'sniff' test more than Obama - he commanded the stage, stepped all over the moderator as if it were a foreign policy ally, and repeatedly punched Obama with a Reaganesque smile on his face.

It's obvious Obama has a command of policy and, well, facts, but he also falls into moments where economy of speech is lost on him. He also looked peeved whenever Lehrer or Romney cut him off. Repeatedly.

So no, this doesn't change the outcome, but I do come away respecting Romneybot a bit more. If only he didn't assemble the worse campaign staff and advisers in history.

[also, really, really not looking forward to see Obama hem and haw during the foreign policy debate.]

 

[RoninChaos]

Yeah for what it's worth--and there's no telling if it will happen again--Paul Ryan's convention speech went over pretty well until the media looked over it afterward and was like "actually a bunch of this is just flat-out bullshit".

The problem is we shouldn't be letting the fact checkers make this point. The president should be making those points. He had chance after chance to hit Romney where it hurts with things he's already said. Romney talked about business, Obama should have brought up Bain capital and saving the auto industry. Romney talked roll of government. Obama should have brought up the 47% comment. Romney talked about food stamps. Obama should have brought up why safety nets are so important to this country and that he wasn't going to let people starve because wall street drove the economy off a cliff. Romney talked about taxes, Obama should have brought up Math. And mitts tax rate.

I get some people here don't think this will make a difference and that's fine, but Obama phones it in. The 3 zillion republican debates obviously helped Romney. I hope Obama will realize that Romney is going to keep trying to hit Obama where it hurts and Obama has to hit back. Making Romney uncomfortable is what causes shit like 10,000 dollar bet?" to come out. If Romney is comfortable he's going to control that narrative. Obama has to make him uncomfortable and it all falls down for Romney.

 

[Jak140]

So if Mitt gets a bump in the skewed liberal main stream media polls, will this be acknowledged by the right or do they just pretend and ignore what they claimed about said polls?

"Mitt's performance against Obummer was so good that even the liberal media couldn't deny it without appearing even more biased than they already do." - Average Freeper

 

[Vestal]

I watched the debate last night, and listening to the Talking heads I couldn't help but wonder why they didn't actually dissect what each candidate said instead of calling for a victor in regards to the Debate. If you look at the actual substance of the debate you would think Obama won by a mile, given that you know he actually had facts on his side, and wasn't flip flopping at every corner.

So is a Presidential debate in this country won by who can flip flop, evade and lie the most?

 

[RoninChaos]

Yeah, I have no idea why he didn't bother addressing that. But that's probably the most egregious offense so far.

That was the biggest miss of the night. Ryan has said it and people called bullshit. Now Romney has said it TO THE PRESIDENT'S FACE and wasn't called on it.

Yes, Romneys positions seemed to be "no I didn't say that and no I won't do that" but offered little detail. That's where another problem comes in. Americans, when it comes to these things are stupid. Plain and simple. It's much easier to be misinformed than informed. For the people who follow politics, what happened last night wasn't a surprise. Romney was full of shot on most things. But I believe most people aren't informed. They'll listen to fox news or whoever and run with it. Obama had a chance last night to pull a president Clinton and say "this math doesn't add up. You're accusing me of doing something your budget has". And I realize he wasn't trying to give mitt an "in" but you don't win a fight if you refuse to throw a punch, especially when the other guy is swinging at everything.

 

[teruterubozu]

So is a Presidential debate in this country won by who can flip flop, evade and lie the most?

It worked for Reagan.

 

[The Librarian]

I've been trying to square the reaction here with my own views with what I took away from the debate while avoiding the bubble, and I can't find any reasons. The only time I remember Mittens coming off especially strong was in the beginning, and I do remember wishing Bams would take a more aggressive approach to Mitt, but even then I thought he was getting in some good points. Obama had some pretty good dings about Romney being vague.

Christ, there were people in this thread counting the number of times Mittens got the last word. I didn't even notice it!

It worked for Reagan.

No it didn't.

...

From here on out I'm going to watch every debate without the bubble. Sometimes having a tight circle of people you go to for political news is good, and sometimes – like in this instance – it's bad.

 

[teruterubozu]

No it didn't.

Yeah it did.

 

[The Librarian]

Yeah it did.

How?

 

[Cheebo]

From here on out I'm going to watch every debate without the bubble. Sometimes having a tight circle of people you go to for political news is good, and sometimes – like in this instance – it's bad.

Romney's win in the CNN and CBS poll was the biggest win margin for any candidate since they been tracking these ever. Clinton never won by that margin in a debate in post debate polling. It isn't the bubble. It's reality.

How?

Did you watch the 1980 debate? Carter was serious and frustrated, Reagan piled on nonstop with a lot of energy clearly excited to be there despite everything he said involved evading any real concrete policy or solutions. The famous "There he goes again" line was a response to Carter calling out Reagan on a lie.

 

[The Librarian]

Romney's win in the CNN and CBS poll was the biggest win margin for any candidate since they been tracking these ever. Clinton never won by that margin in a debate in post debate polling. It isn't the bubble. It's reality.

That CNN poll that was right-leaning? Please don't start being a chicken little again. I thought you learned your lesson from last time?

Did you watch the 1980 debate? Carter was serious and frustrated, Reagan piled on nonstop with a lot of energy clearly excited to be there despite everything he said involved evading any real concrete policy or solutions. The famous "There he goes again" line was a response to Carter calling out Reagan on a lie.

Saying it "worked" for Reagan implies that he was behind during the polls leading up to the debates. He was not.

 

[Cheebo]

That CNN poll that was right-leaning? Please don't start being a chicken little again. I thought you learned your lesson from last time?

Obama is going to win this election, I have no doubt. But to say Romney didn't have a clear and decisive win last night is to bury your head in the sand. It was one of the most clear debate victories in a long time.

Saying Romney won the debate isn't being a chicken little, it's facts. Look at the polling. The biggest win percentage in literally decades. Attacking a poll for it's sample is exactly what we were mocking conservatives this past few weeks, don't stoop to that level.

Look what liberals and democrats are saying. Look at all the morning shows declaring Romney a huge winner. Romney won last night, he didn't win the election but he won the debate. And it wasn't even close.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Romney "won" but I don't think Obama was weak. You can lose a debate without being utterly destroyed.

Eh, he was outclassed - dunno about destroyed. For months people have been arguing that Romney's nonsense would be exposed once he had to share a stage with Obama. I don't think the expectation was that Obama would soundly defeat him, it was that Romney would be forced to defend bullshit. Yet Obama didn't pin him on anything except Medicare. He let Romney control the tone of the debate and let him say a bunch of blatantly wrong stuff. That's not how you debate

At one point Romney said there was no difference between him and Obama on Medicare, then he seemed to remember his talking points and brought up the 716b nonsense. It was odd but at least Romney was thinking on his feet. Meanwhile Obama said there was no difference between himself and Romney on social security - no mention of Romney wanting to raise the retirement age. His performance made no sense until you recognize Obama doesn't care for the debate structure, and therefore didn't seem to take it seriously. He just told long winded stories and gave aimless answers. Sure he focused on one narrative about Romney not giving details, but polls show people felt Romney was more detailed than Obama! What happened to painting Romney as someone who doesn't care about the middle class?

 

[IrishNinja]

Obama is going to win this election, I have no doubt. But to say Romney didn't have a clear and decisive win last night is to bury your head in the sand. It was one of the most clear debate victories in a long time.

Saying Romney won the debate isn't being a chicken little, it's facts. Look at the polling. The biggest win percentage in literally decades. Attacking a poll for it's sample is exactly what we were mocking conservatives this past few weeks, don't stoop to that level.

this is such a weird post, for me. i get that perception = reality, and if you're seeing polls back it (honestly, i dont put stock in shit after the last few elections) then i guess i can't ague with that.

i dont pretend to be unbiased like some on GAF, i just saw a debate i thought was overall lackluster. obama was kinda on autopolit, romney repeated stuff. if that's an L for the former, i guess? but the bar's pretty low to make the claims you're making here, for me. it was 2 men repeating talking points and cutting off a weak mod.

literally: you take away some chicken little shit on this thread and whatever fox is up to, and id assume it was a moot debate. it's weird hearing otherwise for me, and im not obama's biggest fan at the moment.

edit PD painted a better picture for me there

 

[PhoenixDark]

That CNN poll that was right-leaning? Please don't start being a chicken little again. I thought you learned your lesson from last time?



Saying it "worked" for Reagan implies that he was behind during the polls leading up to the debates. He was not.

Complaining about skewed samples for a poll of independent voters? The irony here is suffocating

 

[Basileus777]

Yes, let's use this great CNN poll as evidence!

 

[PhoenixDark]

So I guess the CBS and other polls don't exist now

 

[IrishNinja]

PD i know we can't ban-bet
but can we like bet on a vita or a bottle of top-shelf whisky or something, cause i think you're like
super-wrong

 

[Measley]

The problem is we shouldn't be letting the fact checkers make this point. The president should be making those points. He had chance after chance to hit Romney where it hurts with things he's already said. Romney talked about business, Obama should have brought up Bain capital and saving the auto industry. Romney talked roll of government. Obama should have brought up the 47% comment. Romney talked about food stamps. Obama should have brought up why safety nets are so important to this country and that he wasn't going to let people starve because wall street drove the economy off a cliff. Romney talked about taxes, Obama should have brought up Math. And mitts tax rate.

I get some people here don't think this will make a difference and that's fine, but Obama phones it in. The 3 zillion republican debates obviously helped Romney. I hope Obama will realize that Romney is going to keep trying to hit Obama where it hurts and Obama has to hit back. Making Romney uncomfortable is what causes shit like 10,000 dollar bet?" to come out. If Romney is comfortable he's going to control that narrative. Obama has to make him uncomfortable and it all falls down for Romney.

I'd just like to point out that Obama did fact check Mitt several times during the debate. The problem is that Mitt just lied through it. The tax cut thing was the big one. I think Obama fact checked him 5 or 6 times, but Romney just kept lying about his position on it. What was Obama going to do? Call him a liar on stage? That plays really well with independent voters.

BTW, it's also the moderator's job to fact check during the debate as well, but Mitt just rolled him over and kept ranting. I really don't get where people are saying that the president didn't push back on Mitt's bullshit. He did, several times. The problem is that Mitt ignored the moderator and kept getting in the last word, even though the moderator said he can't.

 

[thefro]

So I guess the CBS and other polls don't exist now

CBS poll was completely unscientific.

Google's poll had Obama winning the debate afterwards and then it flipped a couple hours later when they repolled it after people had listened to the talking heads.

 

[Measley]

Obama is going to win this election, I have no doubt. But to say Romney didn't have a clear and decisive win last night is to bury your head in the sand. It was one of the most clear debate victories in a long time.

Saying Romney won the debate isn't being a chicken little, it's facts. Look at the polling. The biggest win percentage in literally decades. Attacking a poll for it's sample is exactly what we were mocking conservatives this past few weeks, don't stoop to that level.

Look what liberals and democrats are saying. Look at all the morning shows declaring Romney a huge winner. Romney won last night, he didn't win the election but he won the debate. And it wasn't even close.

Keep in mind that pundit's first job is ratings. Their job is to keep the horse race going, even when everyone knows this race is over.

Romney has no chance at a comeback unless Obama comes to the next debate with a dead fetus around his neck.

 

[RDreamer]

In the office today and I just hear that the media will find a way to attack Ronney, and "Obama just didn't look good without a teleprompter."

Jess Christ..

Holy fuck!

I just heard "when Obama started the debate wishing his wife happy anniversary I just thought go fuck yourself, come on."

 

[jmdajr]

Catching up. Seems all the news think Obama looked bad.

Personally I think Romney looked a lot better than Bush or McCain ever did. By a lot.

It was funny to see Moderate Romney come out of nowhere. Bams was caught off guard. Gotta step up now.

 

[Measley]

I'm frankly surprised that so many conservatives have no issue with Romney switching directions like the wind. Are they so angry at Obama that they're willing to put in someone who has zero integrity on anything?

 

[RDreamer]

I'm like bathing in teleprompter jokes here... These people are batshit crazy.

 

[codhand]

I'm frankly surprised that so many conservatives have no issue with Romney switching directions like the wind. Are they so angry at Obama that they're willing to put in someone who has zero integrity on anything?

A win is a win, even if he sounded like a Democrat in order to do it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm like bathing in teleprompter jokes here... These people are batshit crazy.

I'm more annoyed Obama gave them cover last night. He sounded very unfocused, especially when compared to previous performances (McCain debate, GOP summit)

 

[Measley]

I'm more annoyed Obama gave them cover last night. He sounded very unfocused, especially when compared to previous performances (McCain debate, GOP summit)

McCain and the House GOP have a pretty consistent political message.

Romney is a conservative one week, a tea partier the following week, and he's a moderate populist this week.

 

[The Technomancer]

The problem is we shouldn't be letting the fact checkers make this point. The president should be making those points. He had chance after chance to hit Romney where it hurts with things he's already said. Romney talked about business, Obama should have brought up Bain capital and saving the auto industry. Romney talked roll of government. Obama should have brought up the 47% comment. Romney talked about food stamps. Obama should have brought up why safety nets are so important to this country and that he wasn't going to let people starve because wall street drove the economy off a cliff. Romney talked about taxes, Obama should have brought up Math. And mitts tax rate.

Obama did do this in one of his better rebuttals, but it seems impossible to get Romney to stick to anything. The debate really did consist of Obama saying "But the plans you propose do this" and Romney saying "nu-uh thats not my plan, my plan is awesome and includes all the good stuff you're talking about"

 

[markatisu]

Obama did do this in one of his better rebuttals, but it seems impossible to get Romney to stick to anything. The debate really did consist of Obama saying "But the plans you propose do this" and Romney saying "nu-uh thats not my plan, my plan is awesome and includes all the good stuff you're talking about"

And in typical Romney fashion refused to go into details LOL

 

[Eidan]

Obama's performance was, frankly, anemic. I don't care about stupid stuff like him looking down at his notes a lot, or sounding "confident". I know that's not Obama's style, and though I don't like it, I came to terms with it a long time ago. But what I wanted Obama to do was nail Romney on his lies, force him to have to defend the garbage from his campaign, and he never did.

Obama never effectively responded to the $716 billion remarks on Medicare. He let Romney have the last word on Dodd-Frank regulations. He let Romney say 20 million people would lose their insurance under the ACA and never challenged the claim. He never went after Romney on Bain. Never went after Romney on Romneycare, or his remarks on it being a national model. Never went after Romney on the 47 percent comments. He simply NEVER attacked. It was frustrating.

It made it seem like Obama didn't care. If he doesn't care enough to put on a good showing during the debate, if he doesn't believe the presidency is worth fighting for, or that Romney, if elected, would further hurt the middle class (or perhaps doesn't care enough about the middle class to prevent it), I'm sure some will ask why he should even have their vote.

I don't think this performance will have a huge impact on the race. Romney will certainly have a bounce of some kind, but as has been said many times, the debates don't matter much. People's minds have been made up, and were made up a while ago. Still a bomb from Obama though.

 

[3rdman]

Catching up. Seems all the news think Obama looked bad.

Personally I think Romney looked a lot better than Bush or McCain ever did. By a lot.

It was funny to see Moderate Romney come out of nowhere. Bams was caught off guard. Gotta step up now.

It's kinda funny to me listening to all the hand-wringers here in my office...

For perspective, I remind myself of 2004...Kerry completely destroyed Bush in that first debate. It wasn't even close...it was so bad that people were referring to Kerry as the only "Presidential" person on that stage and yet Bush won. As we all recall, it was Ohio that did it then but there is almost no shot of Obama losing that state in 2012.

A friend at work just bet me $100.00 that Ohio will eventually crack and move to the red. I tried to up the bet to $1000.00 but he wouldn't go for that.

 

[Zabka]

Obama's performance was, frankly, anemic. I don't care about stupid stuff like him looking down at his notes a lot, or sounding "confident". I know that's not Obama's style, and though I don't like it, I came to terms with it a long time ago. But what I wanted Obama to do was nail Romney on his lies, force him to have to defend the garbage from his campaign, and he never did.

Obama never effectively responded to the $716 billion remarks on Medicare. He let Romney have the last word on Dodd-Frank regulations. He let Romney say 20 million people would lose their insurance under the ACA and never challenged the claim. He never went after Romney on Bain. Never went after Romney on Romneycare, or his remarks on it being a national model. Never went after Romney on the 47 percent comments. He simply NEVER attacked. It was frustrating.

It made it seem like Obama didn't care. If he doesn't care enough to put on a good showing during the debate, if he doesn't believe the presidency is worth fighting for, or that Romney, if elected, would further hurt the middle class (or perhaps doesn't care enough about the middle class to prevent it), I'm sure some will ask why he should even have their vote.

I don't think this performance will have a huge impact on the race. Romney will certainly have a bounce of some kind, but as has been said many times, the debates don't matter much. People's minds have been made up, and were made up a while ago. Still a bomb from Obama though.

Unfortunately the target audience for these debates wants the exact opposite out of them that you do. They want a strong, confident leader who doesn't go after his opponent.