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PoliGAF 2012 |OT3| If it's not a legitimate OT the mods have ways to shut it down

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I guess he just has to tie in the debates? A tie won't move the needle for Romney.
I don't know, I could see Romney getting flustered easily and saying some dumb shit. It'll be really fun watching him explain why Romneycare is so great but Obamacare should be repealed.

He got thrown off by Rick Perry of all people.
 

bananas

Banned
If all Republicans are going to do is attack Obama with the same arguments from 2008, then they're going to get results like 2008.
 
He's never let that dictate or influence his numbers though. I do think that he might be reading too much into things, but we'll know for sure in a few days. Of course, PPP is releasing a bunch of polls tomorrow that will increase Obama's numbers even more..

I'd imagine Obama's overall bounce will be 4 when all is said and done; solid, and puts Romney in a hole.

I think part of it is that people really never expected this big of a bounce for Obama after the DNC. As Nate says, Gallup is showing big movements for Obama, and the full effect of the convention hasn't even been felt yet (7 day rolling average so there are still some post-RNC effects being felt). Not to mention to the notable R lean of Gallup this cycle.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Question. Why is Alaska a red state? Everything on the west coast is blue but that. Granted it's far north and connected to Canada but what would exactly cause it be so red?

Downtown Austin, TX has more people than all of Alaska. And Austin is sort of a smallish side of large cities.

Or to put it another way, Staten island has nearly as many people.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I don't know, I could see Romney getting flustered easily and saying some dumb shit. It'll be really fun watching him explain why Romneycare is so great but Obamacare should be repealed.

He got thrown off by Rick Perry of all people.

Early in the debates, yeah, but in the last couple debates he really dismantled Newt.
 
If all Republicans are going to do is attack Obama with the same arguments from 2008, then they're going to get results like 2008.
I was watching some of the coverage of 2008 for old time's sake and loved seeing the ticker showing Democrats with commanding leads in the Senate and House contests.

A repeat of that would be wonderful.
 

Trakdown

Member
I'm worried about the debates though. I thought Obama was fairly weak in 2008 and it was just that McCain was a complete disaster. Does anyone feel confident about those?

Remember this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5vOMIN673A

If you can't watch the link, that was Obama's performance in 2010 at the House Republicans retreat. Dude shined in a hostile environment, I can't imagine him being worse in a neutral one, even with tough questions. Plus, all he has to do is draw or better. Romney has to come out with clearly better ideas while tied to the Republican platform, which is already very unpopular. And considering he just got outdone by The Old Man and The Seat at his own convention, I'm not really all that worried about the debates.
 

HylianTom

Banned
I don't know, I could see Romney getting flustered easily and saying some dumb shit. It'll be really fun watching him explain why Romneycare is so great but Obamacare should be repealed.

He got thrown off by Rick Perry of all people.
I still think that Romney could possibly have an "ick factor" that's giving a lot of voters pause to the point where they can't get comfortable with him. He has that desperate, slimy car salesman fakeness to him.. and seeing him next to Mr "Such-a-Nice-Guy" on a debate stage might further exacerbate the effect. It'd be like an update/variation of Kennedy-Nixon.
 

Diablos

Member
I don't know, I could see Romney getting flustered easily and saying some dumb shit. It'll be really fun watching him explain why Romneycare is so great but Obamacare should be repealed.

He got thrown off by Rick Perry of all people.
Good point. He had numerous debates with the biggest group of neanderthals I've ever seen in US politics and he still struggled a bit.
 

Cloudy

Banned
I'm worried about the debates though. I thought Obama was fairly weak in 2008 and it was just that McCain was a complete disaster. Does anyone feel confident about those?

Obama seemed mediocre in the primaries because it's hard to debate people you agree with on 90% of the issues. Plus he was bending over backwards trying not to offend Hilary voters.

He crushed McCain and I think he'll be fine vs. Romney. There's no bitter Clintonites or Fox News personalities moderating either..
 

Diablos

Member
b-b-b-b-but Ryan is younger and better looking and it'll take longer for Biden to respond to criticism because he's so old!
 
The Biden-Ryan debate is going to be the real barnburner. No way Biden's letting Ryan get away with all his shit.

eh, I think Ryan will roast him. But interestingly, Ryan has pretty much been irrelevant since the first weeks of his roll-out. The media has kind of exposed him and it's starting to seem like he's not on the same page as Romney.
 

Clevinger

Member
b-b-b-b-but Ryan is younger and better looking and it'll take longer for Biden to respond to criticism because he's so old!

I think Biden will lose the debate, but only for one reason: he's starting to sound his age, and debates are all about appearances. Even when he's just reading a speech, he screws up every other sentence. If it was Biden from four or more years ago, I think he'd beat Ryan's bullshit easily. But the dude's getting old.

Ryan definitely won't win on his own merits, though.

But then again, I was totally wrong about the conventions, so maybe I'll be wrong about this too.
 

Forever

Banned
Bill Clinton is like the Democratic Limit Break. The Ohio douches are going to have to suppress votes a lot harder to make this winnable for Romney.
 

Effect

Member
I still think that Romney could possibly have an "ick factor" that's giving a lot of voters pause to the point where they can't get comfortable with him. He has that desperate, slimy car salesman fakeness to him.. and seeing him next to Mr "Such-a-Nice-Guy" on a debate stage might further exacerbate the effect. It'd be like an update/variation of Kennedy-Nixon.

They've never been in the space place before have they? The direct and live contrast is going to be interesting.
 

Diablos

Member
Can't wait to hear the media trying to spin a Ryan VP debate victory as a bounce for the Romney camp :rolleyes

I think Biden will school him, really. He's got tons of political experience and he knows who he's going up against. He will be well-prepared. We'll see lots of vintage Biden.
 

RDreamer

Member
eh, I think Ryan will roast him. But interestingly, Ryan has pretty much been irrelevant since the first weeks of his roll-out. The media has kind of exposed him and it's starting to seem like he's not on the same page as Romney.

No way Ryan roasts him. Maybe in the minds of some conservatives that'll happen. The problem is that the Republicans have set up Biden as the dumbest man alive. Expectations for him are really low. If he even gets in some really good shots in there, then he wins. Steve Schmidt said it the other day. Debates are about expectations and the Republicans seem to be playing with fire by lowering the expectations bar for Biden to ridiculous levels.
 

Cloudy

Banned
eh, I think Ryan will roast him.

I don't know about that. Biden is a goofy guy but it's crazy how folks have turned him into some kind of Palin because they can't caricature Obama. He might not be slick but knows the issues. He'll hold his own just fine..

No way Ryan roasts him. Maybe in the minds of some conservatives that'll happen

They said Palin beat Biden lol
 
I think Biden will lose the debate, but only for one reason: he's starting to sound his age, and debates are all about appearances. Even when he's just reading a speech, he screws up every other sentence. If it was Biden from four or more years ago, I think he'd beat Ryan's bullshit easily. But the dude's getting old.

Ryan definitely won't win on his own merits, though.
Perhaps, but the old-young contrast was there in 2008 and Biden still won. Then again people already had the perception of Palin being an idiot and the debate didn't change anything.

I thought his DNC speech was decent.

PhoenixDark said:
eh, I think Ryan will roast him. But interestingly, Ryan has pretty much been irrelevant since the first weeks of his roll-out. The media has kind of exposed him and it's starting to seem like he's not on the same page as Romney.
The luster wore off when everyone realized how big of a pathological liar he is. His nose grew so long in his RNC speech it ended up in Disney World.

RDreamer said:
No way Ryan roasts him. Maybe in the minds of some conservatives that'll happen. The problem is that the Republicans have set up Biden as the dumbest man alive. Expectations for him are really low. If he even gets in some really good shots in there, then he wins. Steve Schmidt said it the other day. Debates are about expectations and the Republicans seem to be playing with fire by lowering the expectations bar for Biden to ridiculous levels.
It's the "praise Clinton and hope he endorses us" strategy.
 

Trakdown

Member
I don't know about that. Biden is a goofy guy but it's crazy how folks have turned him into some kind of Palin because they can't caricature Obama. He might not be slick but knows the issues. He'll hold his own just fine..They said Palin beat Biden lol

He has an advantage in that no matter what Ryan says at the debate, there's already a disconnect between his policies and that of his running mate. Say what you will about Biden, he's been staying on message well enough that this hasn't been a problem. You can tell that he and Obama are on the same page, you can't say that about Ryan and Romney. Which is kind of messy at the debates when you're trying to talk about how your running mate should be elected, since we don't vote for the VP.
 

Forever

Banned
Biden was stumbling over his words a bit in his speech but I don't think he'll meltdown in the debates. He's always made gaffes on the campaign trail but I don't ever recall him having a truly bad debate performance. This shit is second nature to him by now.
 

Cloudy

Banned
Also, expectations for Biden are so low that Ryan will have to destroy him to get much traction. And that's not gonna happen
 
Why did Romney do his MTP interview with his wife? Isn't it time for him to get serious and not hide behind Ann anymore in some fluff interview? We don't need her to tell us again how much he loves to laugh or deflect any non-economic questions regarding women. Just seems cowardly. Do candidate's wives usually play this large a role in a campaign?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
eh, I think Ryan will roast him. But interestingly, Ryan has pretty much been irrelevant since the first weeks of his roll-out. The media has kind of exposed him and it's starting to seem like he's not on the same page as Romney.

He's just in it for 2016. And, unlike Palin, he's not an idiot so he can turn this into something real for himself.
 
Romney is going to have to start getting serious and talk details. His campaign has basically been based on inevitability, ie "the economy sucks so I'm going to win." Clearly that's not going to work. He can still win, but his campaign needs some restructuring ASAP


There are no details.

Thats the point.

Question. Why is Alaska a red state? Everything on the west coast is blue but that. Granted it's far north and connected to Canada but what would exactly cause it be so red?

They can see russia from their homes. The red was contagious I guess.


Downtown Austin, TX has more people than all of Alaska. And Austin is sort of a smallish side of large cities.

Or to put it another way, Staten island has nearly as many people.

If money were so easy to impact elections, all the dems would have to do would be to money bomb north dakota, wyoming and alaska and suddenly they have 6 senators.


For crying out loud, Wyoming has 568,158 people.

If you could buy votes with money, it would be cheaper to get those two senate seats than getting a mayor position in any decent sized city.
 

pigeon

Banned
The RNC was extraordinarily weak. I mean, even from within my liberal bubble, the media went after Paul Ryan as if he weren't their rockstar sex symbol. Was very confusing and I remain confused. When you couple a weak coming out party with a weak comer-outer, it can be really damning.

This is the biggest advantage an incumbent candidate has -- politicians who haven't been involved in a presidential campaign seem not to realize what an intense ordeal it is. Nothing is more rewarding for the mainstream media than finding a reason somebody is not qualified to be the President. Everybody has some kind of weakness, and when you declare they'll find it, and they won't rest until you handle it somehow -- for Obama, for example, the test was Jeremiah Wright. For Romney it's probably the taxes. But Ryan, while he's clearly smarter than Palin, was still totally unprepared for a campaign where people would pay attention to the things he said and look for gotchas, because that whole speech was gotchas. And they got him.

I also kind of think that some members of the media just faced a Chief Justice Roberts moment, where they had to ask themselves whether they really wanted to be potentially responsible for putting Romney-Ryan in the White House because they softballed a story. I mean, you have to doubt that any of them want that.

I'm worried about the debates though. I thought Obama was fairly weak in 2008 and it was just that McCain was a complete disaster. Does anyone feel confident about those?

In terms of prepared stuff, Romney's not bad, and Obama's not amazing. When it comes to thinking on their feet, Obama is extremely good, and Romney is self-evidently terrible. So it depends on how well-prepared they are, and how well Obama can find ways to catch Romney out and make him explain stuff he doesn't want to explain.

Unfortunately for Romney, he has a severe handicap in the debates in that he has no position whatsoever and everything he's said is a lie. I mean, as everybody keeps saying, there's never been a campaign as aversive to the truth as this one. So if he has a plan to keep that up through the debates, then he'll do well, but frankly, I want to see that plan before I believe it. He won't be able to just not respond to the things Obama says the way he does with the press.

He's just in it for 2016. And, unlike Palin, he's not an idiot so he can turn this into something real for himself.

We'll see. If people really start thinking of him as fundamentally dishonest, it's going to be a real problem for him. I want to see the Biden/Ryan debate before I make any predictions.
 

RDreamer

Member
All I want from the debates is for Romney to bring up the gutting of the welfare work requirement. I want Obama to first explain that no such thing happened, and then I want him to lean over his podium, put his chin on his hand and ask ever-so-politely to Romney "So, Mitt, why did I see your signature on a request for those waivers?" Then I want to see him crack a slight maniacal smirk and watch as Romney squirms like the little lying sack of shit he is.
 
Ryan vs. Rubio 2016 primary, for real.

(if Romney loses:)
Jeb Bush and Chris Christie; both are better politicians than Ryan and Rubio. Also I think the GOP will have a new budget pipe dream by 2016 to replace the Ryan budget, which will likely have had a negative impact on the 2012 election. In short, I think Ryan's national aspirations could end with a loss this year, and he'll go back to a quieter role.
 

Trurl

Banned
I wonder if Paul Ryan being a confirmed liar has effected Romney's chances. I bet he wished he had chosen Rob Portman now.

He should. Rob Portman was one of the few people at the RNC to attempt a cogent argument at how Obama's policies have held the economy back. I mean, he was wrong, but the fact that he attempted beyond appealing to fairy dust was nice.
 

Forever

Banned
Full Nate Silver article on why Obama is now the frontrunner.

08fivethirtyeight-blog480.jpg
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I have to hope Chris Christie isn't going anywhere nationally. He's such an embarrassing person and politician; I couldn't imagine voters ok with him representing them internationally. Or maybe that's the appeal.

Even my GOP-loving coworker in the office next to me calls him a thug. He even has had multiple incidents where he gets into shouting matches on the fucking boardwalk in NJ. The footage literally looks like an episode of Jersey Shore.

Maybe that's the appeal?
 

RDreamer

Member
I have to hope Chris Christie isn't going anywhere nationally. He's such an embarrassing person and politician; I couldn't imagine voters ok with him representing them internationally. Or maybe that's the appeal.

Even my GOP-loving coworker in the office next to me calls him a thug. He even has had multiple incidents where he gets into shouting matches on the fucking boardwalk in NJ. The footage literally looks like an episode of Jersey Shore.

Maybe that's the appeal?

I think that's the appeal to some, but there's no way in hell he could continue to be that guy and win the general election. That just isn't going to happen in my opinion. He'd scare independents off in an instant.
 

GhaleonEB

Member

I just got done reading that. This was the section where it really sinks in how screwed Romney is:

In fact, Mr. Romney has never held a lead over Mr. Obama by any substantive margin in the polls. The Real Clear Politics average of polls put Mr. Romney ahead by a fraction of a percentage point at one point in October 2011, and he pulled into an exact tie at one point late in the week of his convention, after it was over, but he has never done better than that.

That makes this an extremely odd election. You would figure that at some point over the past year, Mr. Romney would have pulled into the lead in the polls, given how close it has usually been. John McCain held occasional leads in 2008; John Kerry led for much of the summer in 2004; and Michael Dukakis had moments where he was well ahead of George H.W. Bush in the spring and summer of 1988. But Mr. Romney, if there have been moments when his polls were ever-so-slightly stronger or weaker, has never really had his moment in the sun.

Instead, the cases where one candidate led essentially from wire to wire have been associated with landslides: Bill Clinton in 1996, Ronald Reagan in 1984, Richard Nixon in 1972 and Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956.

There is almost no chance that Mr. Obama will win by those sort of margins. But this nevertheless seems like an inauspicious sign for Mr. Romney. If even at his high-water mark, he can only pull the race into a rough tie, what pitch can he come up with in October or November to suddenly put him over the top?
 
I have to hope Chris Christie isn't going anywhere nationally. He's such an embarrassing person and politician; I couldn't imagine voters ok with him representing them internationally. Or maybe that's the appeal.

Even my GOP-loving coworker in the office next to me calls him a thug. He even has had multiple incidents where he gets into shouting matches on the fucking boardwalk in NJ. The footage literally looks like an episode of Jersey Shore.

Maybe that's the appeal?

You should have seen this dude at the Jets rally.

Was on for two seconds before getting booed so hard he couldn't get two sentences out. Hilarious.

There's no appeal, and he can't run on his record. I can't believe how shitty Jersey's economy has been. I mean, I don't really blame him, but it doesn't look good either.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
(if Romney loses:)
Jeb Bush and Chris Christie; both are better politicians than Ryan and Rubio. Also I think the GOP will have a new budget pipe dream by 2016 to replace the Ryan budget, which will likely have had a negative impact on the 2012 election. In short, I think Ryan's national aspirations could end with a loss this year, and he'll go back to a quieter role.

Ryan's budget makes me think of a class of retards, where only one of them actually did his homework at all, and it was Ryan, but instead of answering the questions, he just drew penises and signed his name.
 

RDreamer

Member
Biden to press: Fact Check me

Press to Biden:

“What they didn’t tell you is what they’re proposing would cause Medicare to go bankrupt by 2016.”
–Vice President Biden
This is wrong. There are different parts of Medicare, much of which is paid from general revenues and premiums. Part A, which pays hospitals, has a “trust fund,” made up of special-issue Treasury bonds, that always seems to be on the edge of running dry. But even so, the payroll tax could pay most estimated expenditures for decades. And does anyone doubt Congress would not step in and fill any gaps?

Ok, so Ryan and Romney run around all willy nilly talking about Medicare going bankrupt, and practically the entire Ryan budget is based on entitlement reform because OMGS we can't afford it and they're going bankrupt, but now they decide to go with the fact checking? When a democrat makes it more solvent because of all that shit, suddenly it was always fucking solvent? bah...
 

Cloudy

Banned
http://news.yahoo.com/romney-slams-...-vp-nominee-234717289--abc-news-politics.html

Romney Slams GOP Leaders - Including His Own VP Nominee - for 2011 Budget Deal

Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., as chair of the House Budget Committee, was part of the team that signed off on the budget deal with the White House, mandating immediate spending cuts, creating a "Super-committee" tasked to finding $1.5 trillion in further deficit rediction, and raising a self-imposed sword of Damocles - $1.2 trillion in cuts to the Pentagon and domestic spending that few in Congress wanted - if the Super-committee failed.

Writing at the National Review Online at the time, Ryan said the bill was a "reasonable, responsible effort to cut government spending, avoid a default, and help create a better environment for job creation."

But today Mitt Romney said Ryan, the man he picked as his running mate on the Republican presidential ticket, and other House GOP leaders made a "big mistake" in agreeing to that deal, which was part of the summer 2011 negotiations over raising the debt ceiling.

Romney said the $1.2 in mandated cuts was "an extraordinary miscalculation in the wrong direction."

"Republican leaders agreed to that deal to the extend the debt ceiling," NBC's David Gregory reminded Romney.

"And that's a big mistake," Romney said. "I thought it was a mistake on the part of the White House to propose it. I think it was a mistake for Republicans to go along with it."

- Jake Tapper

Mitt's just flailing now. Anything to attack Obama with...
 

Drakeon

Member
I don't think republicans will reinvent themselves until after (if) they get thrashed by Clinton in 2016.

I've stopped believing it'll happen at all. Basically, until I see it happening with my very eyes, I won't believe they'll try to reinvent themselves and become suddenly less crazy.
 

Forever

Banned
I don't think republicans will reinvent themselves until after (if) they get thrashed by Clinton in 2016.

Put Castro on the ticket and watch them just meltdown. Unf.

I fully expect Obama to push immigration reform hard in his second term. The chaos that ensues will turn Latinos against the GOP forever.
 
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